ABS - Instructor's Perspective

[BobFV1]

:cup:

Okay -

I'm not the greatest rider in the world nor am I the best mechanic around. I do have a pretty broad base of riding and wrenching experience, and I like to share this with other gentlemen (and women) of perspicacity and introspection.

So - this has to do with ABS, and the perspective I had last week when I taught my first ERC to a group with mostly ABS bikes. And it just so happens that those ABS bikes belonged to a number of distinguished members of this board, namely HiOSilver (Chris), Jamming (Roger) and DeanO (DeanO). In a class of six we had three with ABS - two ST's and Beakster.

First off, there is debate among MSF instructors as to how to teach this class - for those with ABS which can be switched on or off, do we have them switch it on so that they can simulate "in situ" road conditions for their bike, or do we have them switch it off and do it the "old fashioned" way. I am of the latter school, but most of the people I work with think that it should be switched on.

Okay, so in the ERC, we run a drill to practice quick stops. In the BRC it is easy to coach - we do not have any ABS bikes and we look for maximum braking, getting the bike stopped in a short distance relative to the speed, with no wheel lockup, and no deceleration or other anticipation approaching the braking zone. This is easy for me to coach - I just watch and when there is a rear wheel lockup, I tell them "less rear more front" and when there is front lockup I go over the difference between a gentle squeeze and a death grip.

So with the ABS bikes, I stood in my coaching position and here come the bikes. We instructed the riders to approach the cue cones at 15-17 MPH in second gear and to come to a quick stop using both brakes when they pass the cones, avoiding lockup. Here comes DeanO riding toward me on his beautiful red ST. Brakes on and what do I see? - I see a stoppie - bike up on the front wheel with the abs kicking in and the bike skipping along on the front wheel only. Just imagine that - standing there and DeanO is riding past you on one wheel - the FRONT wheel - and it is bouncing along with the ABS kicking in.

How do you coach that? Do you say "good - try to prevent the ABS from engaging the next time?" The idea of ABS is that under maximum braking it is going to kick in, right? I mean, if it is a maximum braking exercise, and you don't pull the brake handles hard enough for the bike to engage the ABS - are you reilly doing an emergency quick stop? I don't think so.... But do you want to be on your front tire only, bouncing along as the little German computer man stops your front tire, releases it, stops it, releases it ... in the matter of a few seconds???

I don't know - guys and girls. Now that I have the great standard brakes on the GS - I love it - I don't worry about grabbiness, I don't worry about the tolerances the German engineers built in to the system, I just ride and feel the braking as it feeds back through the saddle into my ass. I brake with my ass. Who needs ABS, when you have an ass....

Was this a rant? I don't know. Overall, having coached a class full of ABS bikes - I don't think I want ABS on my bike......

:eek:

[Bones]

OK.....I quote you.

[jamming]

Bob, as one of those who was there, the max braking exercise was fun. The ST is the second bike I've owned with ABS. The first was a 1985 K100RS. First generation and it sucked! Spin the wheel and you had to come to a stop and reset.
All of my bikes after that were non-ABS, until the ST.
My feeling on ABS is middle of the road. I HATE the servo whine, however, I"ve lost some hearing due to old age, 40 years around airplanes and motorcycles and I always wear earplugs on the bike now and a headset when I fly, so I really can't hear it well. Who says being deaf is bad........huh, what whine?
I like having ABS as I ride in the rain, and out in the country where I live theres a lot of loose surface roads.
I like the knowledge that if I throw out the anchor its just gonna stop without scaring the crap out of me.
For people living in climates that get way more rain than we do I think ABS is a good thing.
Would I have bought an ST without ABS, oh yea, but I was stuck with it, and I'm OK with that.
I've owned and ridden everything from dirt bikes to hi-performance street bikes and while I consider myself an
OK rider, I'm no expert. I'm good at staying alive on the roads, I anticipate what other people are going to do, and stay out of trouble.
David Hough writes some good safety books on motorcycling, I'm a fan. He says a good rider seldom has to take evasive action because they have anticipated and prepared for all actions.
I do know how to max brake without ABS and I have a fear I'll lose that conditioned reflex on the ST. So my next bike will NOT have ABS. I'm going to add a KLR650 in the very near future, for some adventure riding.
Right now I like the ABS and the security that comes with it, however if scares me one more time when I'm braking going way fast and hit a ripple in pavement while leaned over that may change.
Look at ABS like Sushi, most people have strong feelings one way or another with very little middle of the road.
Roger

[BobFV1]

For people living in climates that get way more rain than we do I think ABS is a good thing.

Roger - I failed to comment on this and you are right, for certain types of riding conditions it might be something desireable, like living in Seattle or London and doing a lot of commuting on wet asphalt. Thanks for mentioning this. Ride safe....

[Deans BMW]

To tell you the truth, the only time that my ABS has kicked in was at the ERC course and on my gravel road when I did it on purpose.................and one other time.................when racing a K1200S on the famous Hwy 36 in Northern Calif.. The brakes are so good on the newer Beemers that at least for me in the future...no ABS. I am so conditioned to not slam the brakes on in a panic situation that even consciencely I can not over ride it. And when I want eye ball bulging brakes like racing on 36, the ABS kicked in at 130 and scared the S... out of me.

[DarthRider]

Bob -

Make the ABS Pussies practice on wet sand...:)
(The smiley means I'm only kidding!)

But that might not be a totally bad idea for ABS *and* non-ABS.

Dave

[GOGRL]

Me thinks there were four bikes with ABS, including my little GS.

Being a new rider, all I know is my bike stops when I want it to and it's easier to stop than my little Suzuki. Of course, as Earl observed, I end up wanting to fly over the handlebars at quick stops.

Having ridden on the back of an LT and a Harley DynaGlide, I definately like the security of ABS, but I agree that good, experienced riders don't want or need ABS. Isn't it turned off for track days and dirt riding?

[Gord]

As a current ABS-P (a great expression Dave!), I am not sure I would get ABS on my next bike. It has kicked in all of once since I picked up my bike o May 7, 2004. And I am not sure it has been worth the extra $$ I laid out. Seems to me that proper attention to the road and solid braking technique should be sufficient.

I do admit a fondness for the whine of the servos though! :020:

[DarthRider]

Don't credit/blame me for coining the term "ABS Pussies"...that honor goes to either Bob or Bones, or both.
Yeah, that's it! They both are the kind of guy to say such a thing on a nice forum like this.
But I'm not.

Dave

[geechie]

Look at ABS like Sushi, most people have strong feelings one way or another with very little middle of the road.

Wait a minute. You're saying that ABS is like BAIT??

George

[Dallara]

Where were all you guys back on the "old" board when I used to go hammer and tongs against the pro-BMW servo-assist ABS crowd? :104:

Seriously, though...

ABS is really not the problem - BMW's servo-assist is. As I have often said, BMW's servo-assist, and all it's cost and complexity along with weight and whining, is an answer ot a question NOBODY asked.

A passive ABS, with a high enough sampling rate and pressure threshold, is completely transparent to the rider... And has more benefits without the liabilities of BMW's servo's. It only requires another chip or two in the bikes ECU, along with a bit more space on a circuit board, a couple of sensors, and a pressure regulator - just about 2 to 5 lbs. worth of stuff, and the very best thing about this kind of system?

If it fails (say the pressure regulator) you still full braking capability whether the power is on or off.

And this additional circuitry, regulator, etc. only costs a couple of hundred - max - more than the standard braking system... Not the THOUSANDS more BMW tries to pluck from your pocket for their vaunted servo-assist set-up.

Here's essentially how I see it:

1.) BMW's Servo Assist = BAD
2.) Linked Brakes = BAD
3.) ABS = OKAY, within limits and with certain conditions
4.) Standard Hydraulic Brakes = GOOD

There are actually some bikes out there that you could ride that have ABS, that if no one told you they had it you would absolutely nver know. It can be manufactured to be that good and operate that transparently.

Cheers!

Allan (the unmighty duster Dallara - NACD)

[BobFV1]

Me thinks there were four bikes with ABS, including my little GS.

Being a new rider, all I know is my bike stops when I want it to and it's easier to stop than my little Suzuki. Of course, as Earl observed, I end up wanting to fly over the handlebars at quick stops.

Having ridden on the back of an LT and a Harley DynaGlide, I definately like the security of ABS, but I agree that good, experienced riders don't want or need ABS. Isn't it turned off for track days and dirt riding?

Michelle - my apologies for not mentioning your little GS.

I took my RT to a track day with the ABS on (it didn't have a switch) and it never kicked in, even on heavy braking at the end of the straightaways. You would definitely want to switch off ABS at a track day, though - IMO - just like when dirt riding.

[Deans BMW]

The upcomming R1200S will have non servo, non linked ABS brakes that can be switched off with a weight penality of 3 LBS.. I think that you will see more of this brake on upcomming Beemers.

[BobFV1]

The upcomming R1200S will have non servo, non linked ABS brakes that can be switched off with a weight penality of 3 LBS.. I think that you will see more of this brake on upcomming Beemers.

DeanO - If they pull it off, that sounds like the brake we've all been waiting for...

Here's a funny one - pushing the bike in to the garage with no power today I grabbed the front brake expecting the "hardly any residual braking" of my old ABS RT - almost dumped the bike because, naturally, it stopped when I pulled the front brake lever. I am going to have to relearn a lot of bad habits with this new bike....

[Bones]

So back to Bob's original question about ABS and the MSF course:

In my opinion, and admittedly it is only an opinion, I think it would be best to NOT have ABS during a course such as that. One of the values of formal teaching forums is that you are forced to do certain things that are either out of your comfort zone or pretty close. The purpose of that quick stop drill as I remember it is to actually get to learn:
1. How hard you can actually stop a motorcycle with decent brakes. I remember thinking "man, I had no idea you could pull it down to a stop in such a short distance." I took the course early on in the period of responsible riding as an adult (we will ignore the irresponsible riding as a youth and adult).
2. What it feels like to have the tire(s) howl just before they are ready to break free. In my case, with the bike straight up, I locked the rear once or twice. And guess what I learned? When you lock the rear with the bike straight up and down, it is barely noticable. Not that that is a good thing...but I would not have learned how seamless that feeling can be when all that weight shifts forward, you unload the rear tire and it skids along smoothly making just a hiss and black line. I now what that feels like on a heavier bike on tarmac and am tuned to that feel. Had I tried to learn that with ABS, I never would have learned it.

So for learning, I think it is better without ABS. For an experience rider who knows what it feels like to howl the front and skid the rear, then go with personal choice.

I have come to my own conclusion about ABS and servos on bikes. Servos should be a "never" because even the best ones will rob some feel, and man, feeling that front is SO important to me, no matter how I am riding. And you don't need servos. All the modern non Harleys can be pulled down to locking the front wheel with two fingers.

IF the ABS could sample and activate/cycle a LOT quicker than the current BMW ones, then perhaps it would be worth having IF you could turn it off when you wanted to . Honda's are pretty invisible. But there is still that issue of it activating when you are braking with the front on rippled road surfaces and having the ABS kick in . I hate that and it is unnerving and I could never get used to it because it has no feel/feedback to tell you when it was going to happen.

The one time I would turn it on would be for riding in the rain. My experience in riding in the rain (including doing it going real fast at Road Atlanta in a down pour) is that you may have some leeway with the rear, but when the front lets loose in the rain, there is no gaining back traction. So I can see ABS for that.

And for the record, it was Bob's quote, and I loved it: "ABS is for pussies." Maybe not, but you have to admit, it is a helluva quote.

Jeff

[Deans BMW]

The residual brakes on the new R1200's and the new K1200's are vastly improved over the 1150 Oilhead series.

[jamming]

Hey George...I rest my case...I love Sushi, there's this little Sushi bar by the Narita Japan airport I used to hit everytime I was there. uuummm good, a lot of Sake and some eel, tuna, Oh man I love Japan.

I'm here to tell ya...The ST has awesome brakes, I kicked in the ABS at the ERC and have had it kick in twice on the road, once during heavy braking before a corner setting up for a fast exit and once when some moron cut me off on the freeway.

[DJ Down Under]

Interesting pic...an 'ABS' buuon...and a...'RIP' button...........just kidding..:110:

DJ

[BobFV1]

Nice photo DJ! I don't have the ABS button, so the other one says "TRIP" on my bike :) - man am I glad I didn't get the ABS now!!!

[neevee]

I have done the ERC twice here in NJ on my ABS equipped Rockster. On both occasions the only other bikes that were able to stop in such a short distance were ABS equipped BMW's (there were no non-ABS BMW's). Despite braking as hard as I could I still did not get the ABS to kick in.

The question I would ask of the ERC course attended is how well did the ABS bikes perform? Were they among the shortest stopping distances?

I know that ABS does not mean shorter stopping distances but it does mean having the confidence to brake as hard as possible when required.

[BobFV1]

Neevee -

Welcome to the cafe! :cup: :cup: :cup: :icon_biggrin:

In the ERC we do not measure braking distances, but we certainly have the ability to do so on the range setup (that's the third part of the riding skills evaluation of the BRC). I think the question you pose is a good one. Maybe next time I get DeanO down here we can get out on the measured braking area and do a little original research.

Ride safe!

[jamming]

Bob, I'll volenter my ST for the test. I'd be curious as to stopping distance......can I go 100MPH and hammer the brakes?:104:
Roger

[BobFV1]

Bob, I'll volenter my ST for the test. I'd be curious as to stopping distance......can I go 100MPH and hammer the brakes?:104:
Roger

Sure - at track day - next time I am on the schedule as a track instructor I'll let you know and we can give it a whirl...

[jamming]

COOL...:eusa_clap:
I'm in, lets do a braking test!

Rog

[kocook]

My 2cts. I am very confident in my ability to stop a bike with or without ABS--in good conditions on dry, clean asphalt, when I practice or for a test. However, change any of those conditions and throw in complete surprise, and I am not so sure because there are too many variables.

To me it is not a test of one's skill at all. It is simply about picking the tools that will give one an edge when trying to survive on the street. And, while I agree with Hough in principal, I have never had a flawles ride. I doubt I ever will. Sometimes the attention wanders a bit.

Based on personal experience, when that deer/car/SUV/truck tries to kill me, I will have about 1 - 2 seconds to convert speed into rotor heat. There will be no time for mental prep--it is just there. Little choice of surface, or conditions. And my emergency braking may not be up to snuff at that instant.

In that real world scenario, I have absolutely no pride. I will take what ever help I can get. So, I have ABS. On my current scooter (K1200S) it is a work of wonder--on and off the track. On my '04 R1100S, it left a bit to be desired because the initial boost rate was too high.

My conclusion? Test any bike you plan to buy for street use, both with and without ABS. If it is reasonably transparent to you, get the ABS. If you are outfitting a track bike, do not get ABS. That would be cheating :).

BTW, Ienatsch, Parks, and Hough all highly recommend ABS.

[DJ Down Under]

How about who can do the best skid...:icon_mrgreen:

DJ

[Deans BMW]

What brother Cook said is 100% on the money.


My conclusion? Test any bike you plan to buy for street use, both with and without ABS. If it is reasonably transparent to you, get the ABS. If you are outfitting a track bike, do not get ABS. That would be cheating .