Clutch is gone and my wrenching adv has arrived

[RandyRandy]

So much for BMW's legendary reliability. Or is this just considered "normal" maintenance?

Today my 2001 R1150R (just 8,500 miles on the odometer) dumped all the clutch fluid. About 2500 mile ago (November 2005) my friendly local BMW dealer greazzed the clutch splines real good and my bill was about $400. Now I've got my own project, because I had the bike towed to my home. Wish me luck! I'm not a good wrench but I'm reasonably stubborn and I have the Clymer and Haynes books. This should be interesting...

Any wagers on whether I can do it my self?

[jamming]

RR...dumped all the clutch fluid...where from? Master cylinder? Slave cylinder? Split line?
Nothing hard about maintence, take your time and if you can read, follow instructions, you can do it.
Roger

[RandyRandy]

Roger wrote:

where from? Master cylinder? Slave cylinder? Split line?

Are those clutch parts? :icon_wink:

Seriously, I have no idea. Maybe it's just a split line. I guess I need to figure out were exactly the leak is... Does removing the tank expose enough of the line to see where it's draining from? Kinda hard to see in there...

[jamming]

Randy, pull the tank, trace the line, figure out where the leak is from. after that you'll know the path you need to take.
The first step in any maintence issue is troubleshooting. It might be as simple as a loose fitting.
Find it ASAP...the brake fluid used is highly caustic to paint, and coated surfaces.
get a miti-vac, about 40 bucks to bleed the line, and you might need a bleed screw.
Yell if you need help, there's enough of us here to offer advice.
Roger

[RandyRandy]

Roger, thanks for the feedback. Since I have almost no wrenching experience (oil changes don't count), my attempt to fix my clutch is a bit of an experiment. Once the parts are removed I think I'll be compelled to take the job to completion. To that end, I have yanked the tank:

http://home.comcast.net/~misterslim/images/randy_wrench.jpg

Whew! OK, that wasn't so bad. I put a wee bit more brake fluild into the clutch and it immediately drained out the bottom of the bike. I'm guessing that the leak is perhaps at the connection of the clutch line to the transmission. (It's not at the master cylinder). It's difficult to tell because that connection is "interior" to the bike and not yet visible. Some of the brake fluid spashed right here:

http://home.comcast.net/~misterslim/images/randy_wrench2.jpg

Is removal of the transmission my next step?

[Deans BMW]

Randy, I think that you should send your bike to a BMW shop, Do you have a manul, Torque wrench, torex bits, etc......? Did you say that your local friendly dealer, greased your splines, if so, they removed the tranny supposdly........that would raise questions with me.

[RandyRandy]

Hi Dean,
Yes, one of the BMW dealers here in Chicagoland greased the clutch splines about in November 05 (about 2K miles ago). I suppose they must have removed the transmission to do that job, right? I didn't have any problems with it until this, but this sure looks like a big problem. I haven't spoken to them about the current issue... I guess I'm skeptical that they would fix the current problem at a reduced rate, and since the bike is in my garage, I have some inclination to give it a go myself, in spite of my inexperience.

I have the Haynes and Clymer manuals and basic spanner wrenches, Torx, Miti-vac, and a cheapo clicker torque wrench. I don't have a heat gun or anything fancy.

So I think removal of the tranny is the next step (?). Or is this really a dumb thing for a complete novice to attempt?

[jamming]

I'd take it to the dealer. Looks to me like a failure of the line. You might have to pull the transmission. Everything back of the engine has to go.
I hate sayingit, but, its not something a novice should attempt without some experienced back-up.
Roger

[Wild Will]

Dean's right, Randy. Likely the previous repair damaged/dislodged/tore something meant to hold fluid. If I had a hydraulic clutch ('96 GS here) I'd be more helpful. Sorry for your loss, but you're outlook is good. Make it an adventure in wrenching. A heat gun is cheap, BTW. You could also look in/ask IBMWR.org, as they have a helpful How To section. At least they used to.
Keep us apprised.

[jamais]

You just might have a failed clutch slave. The slave is attached to the transmission right above the area that you are pointing.

I've had two fail on my bike. The first failure didn't cause an external leak. But when I released the clutch lever, the clutch would would engage much earlier than I anticipated, i.e. the clutch wasn't being disengaged enough due to internal leakage.

The second failure was similar to the first with respect to clutch behavior but the fluid leaked all over the catalytic converter causing a real stink.

[Wild Will]

be elligible for the extended warranty, but my GS carries a spare clutch cable. I guess I don't know what I'm missing.

[jamais]

Since you're transmission was pulled for spline greasing, the clutch slave had to be removed and subsequently reinstalled. There is a gasket that must be replaced whenever the slave is reinstalled. Also new sealing rings must be installed for the banjo bolts.

I'm with the other guys, this didn't happen until service was performed. Therefore you should include the service department in this escapade. You've heard this before, but one more time; brake fluid is very harmful to your paint.

Now please answer this question. Did you have the splines lubed due to difficulty down shifting? What did the shop find when the splines were viewed?

[RandyRandy]

Alan,
Yes, the problem last Fall was down shifting (especially after the bike warmed up). The clutch would not completely dis-engage the engine from the transmission and then the engine would stall. The receipt on the repair order says "Removed Trans & Lubricate input shaft/clutch disk splines. Clutch disk OK. No Repl neccessary". The parts are a pivot pin, felt, gasket, cable strap and brake fluid. Total charge was $507.00. The work was performed at 5300 miles and the current break down occured at 8500 miles.

I'll call the dealer today to see what they have to say. Since it was 3200 miles ago, it doesn't really seem to be their fault. However, maybe they would sell me parts at dealer cost and provide guidance if I need it. Should I expect more? The bike is out of time-warranty (I bought it used and it is 2001 model).

[jamais]

BMW parts come with a warranty of either 6 or 12 months, I can't remember which. If the clutch didn't disengage easily then it was a slave problem. Parts and labor, about $300 odd dollars. I've gone through this.

Now, if the clutch was disengaging properly and yet shifting (usually downshifting)was difficult then it may well have been the splines, although your mileage suggest this to be premature. I will grant you that it is not unheard of however.

[Wild Will]

isn't listed as maintenance anywhere I can see on the 4 valve engines. It was listed on the 2 valve airheads. Seems unlikely you'd need that with such few miles on the machine. Wonder what the repairing dealer said about the splines and shaft? Were they bone dry?

[RandyRandy]

My dealer is showing me no love. Prolly pissed I didn't buy the bike from him. Never mind I've spent over a thousand bucks with him anyway. You know, they can get that way sometimes.

Replacing the clutch slave cylinder or whatever else needs fixin' in there is a mighty big job. I haven't given up doing myself, but I might not if I don't feel like it. I'll have to try to get a little further with it before I make up my mind.

Meanwhile, the weather is warm again and the road beckons... I need to get the bike road-worthy soon.

[Wild Will]

yourself if you have to. It's detailed in the shop manual. It isn't easy, but it isn't brain surgery either. rear wheel, final drive, driveline, shock, transmission, and voila! In a shop, they can do it in a day. Give yourself a few days and give it a shot. Take your time and ask questions. There is almost unlimited help available with BMW repairs on various internet forums, including this one. The Haynes manual is easier to follow than the BMW factory tome.
Good luck, Randy Squared.

[Promethean]

Randy,
Try these threads. They're for a GS but.....I hope they may help

http://www.advrider.com/forums/showthread.php?t=52306
http://www.advrider.com/forums/showthread.php?t=52149&page=4

[RandyRandy]

I've made some progress on my clutch. As a wrench, I'm not much advanced beyond right-tighty, left-loosey, so the work is a little slow going. So far, I haven't really wrecked anything, and I'm tagging and bagging everything that I remove. That might make re-assemble possible, which would be fairly beneficial.

Here we are:

http://home.comcast.net/~misterslim/images/bike_progress.jpg

Things I've removed:
1. Exaust
2. Rear brake caliper and wheel
3. Rear shock spring and remote adjuster
4. Rear brake pedal assembly
5. Gear pedal assembly and foot rest

Should I keep going or should I give up?

[mrmaico]

Hi Randy, I have to say I admire your courage to take on this project with limited experience. It looks like you're doing one good thing that I always seem to forget to do....take lots of pics.

I don't have any knowledge of the 1150 but are you sure you have to pull the tranny to get to the clutch slave cylinder? On my 1200GS I can see it bolted to the back of the tranny. That would surely make things much easier if it were similar to the 1200's. I think I would try to do some more investigating to try and find the exact point of the leak before pulling it much farther apart.

Barry

[RandyRandy]

Some jobs are best left to the dealer. Perhaps this is one of them. Nonetheless, I soldier on. I have removed the final drive and the swing arm:

http://home.comcast.net/~misterslim/images/bike_wo_swingarm.jpg

The bolts that attach the swingarm to the transmission case were a biatch to remove. I had to heat them for about 10 minutes with propane and even then I had to use a 30 inch iron pipe to increase the leverage on my 1/2 inch socket drive. The Clymer book said to heat them to 250 degrees F. Does 10 minutes equal 250 degrees? Prolly not.

Next I'll remove the transmission.

Happy trails.

[RandyRandy]

Asking for a little guidance...

The batter is removed, and I am trying to get the battery case holder removed too so that I can lift the rear end of the bike on the frame pivot points and then remove the transmission. The throttle cables that lead into the bottom of the battery case holder are hard to remove, right? My finger is pointing at a shinny cable that is coming from the left-hand grip choke (fuel enricher thingy).

http://home.comcast.net/~misterslim/images/bike_battery_box.jpg

I got the right-hand throttle cable removed fine. Left hand cable is a problem. How do I remove the cover? The 2 screws that hold the cable cover are hard to get out because the grip is in the way:

http://home.comcast.net/~misterslim/images/bike_left_grip.jpg

Do I have to remove the actual left grip and heating element and thread the wire through the bike... just to remove the battery holder case? The wire to the heated grip leads to this connector in my hand:

http://home.comcast.net/~misterslim/images/bike_heated_grip.jpg

Do I have to cut the wire? It's difficult to remove from the electrical connector.

Any advice sorely appreciated...

[jamais]

I'm perplexed Randy. You stated that you had a clutch fluid leak. Why are you removing the transmission and I presume the clutch? Neither one need to be removed in order to deal with your problem.

[RandyRandy]

Hi Alan,

Don't I have to pull her pants down to see where she's leakin' ? :)

The clutch fluid all trained out from somewhere "inside" where the clutch line joins the clutch and it seems theres no other way to see what she's hiding. The leak was not at the clutch master cylinder. Maybe it was at the clutch release slave or some such?

Is there a better way?

[RandyRandy]

The Bowden cable divider is distributes the throttle cable pull to both throttle bodies. It is located under battery holder. One of the cables into Bowden cable divider is spring loaded. There is a good diagram of it on page 328 of the Clymer BMW repair book. It is cable D in the diagram. How to get that darn cable D out? :eek:

It's the spring & cable in the bottom left of this diagram:

http://home.comcast.net/~misterslim/images/bike_bowden.jpg

[RandyRandy]

There's clutch fluid pooled in front of where the start motor was. That's bad, right?

http://home.comcast.net/~misterslim/images/bike_starter.jpg

[jamais]

Well its obvious that its not INSIDE the transmission or the clutch. Check the clutch slave.

[jamais]

A good night's sleep let me consider something else as well. When my clutch slave died, the shop had me trailer the bike to them because of the possibility of clutch fluid passing through the clutch slave onto the clutch friction disc. Fortunately this didn't happen.

When you pulled the starter, did you see any fluid inside of the flywheel area? If you saw fluid on the outside of case, then you're probably only dealing with the slave and its related plumbing. Did your clutch slip at high rpms? If not, then its probably okay.

[RandyRandy]

Alan,

When I pulled the starter motor, I did see fluid inside of the flywheel area. Specifically, the bottom inside of the case was filled with clutch fluid.

The clutch slave seems to be OK. The clutch line leading into the slave is dry and not leaking any clutch fluid. When I unbolted the clutch slave, a bit of clutch fluid then dripped out, which I think is normal because there is a gasket between the clutch slave and the case that it is fastened to.

Just before the sudden loss of all the clutch fluid, I was going about 75 on the highway and pulled off of an exit ramp. The clutch handle felt insufficient pressure and then I saw the clutch fluid pouring onto the pavement. There were no symptoms at all before this happened.

Does all that clutch fluid inside of the case visible from where the starter was indicate a main seal failure?

[jamais]

No. Main seal failure doesn't result in Clutch Fluid leaking. If you have clutch fluid inside the case below the flywheel then the clutch slave has failed internally. Remember that you will not be able to reuse the slave seal.

Like I've said, I've had two slaves fail. The first one never showed any external leakage. The second one allowed fluid to drip onto the catalytic converter causing an acrid stink.

Randy, go to this site:

http://www.advrider.com/forums/

Next select "Blood, sweat, and gears" and pose the question. These guys are very good.

[Deans BMW]

Slaves,...... HHMMMMM.....................perhaps a bigger Bull Whip............just a thought...........

[RandyRandy]

I lifted up the rear subframe on the pivots and removed the clutch slave cylinder. It is a lovely thing, isn't it?

How do I know if it needs replacing? It's not like it is servicable or anything, right? Can failure of the clutch slave cylinder can cause clutch fluid to leak internally and pool inside the case by the starter motor?

Do I need to remove that pushrod thingy that goes into the slave cylinder? If so, how's that done?

So there is no need whatsoever to remove the transmission at this point? Just buy a new slave cylinder, install, and put the bike back together? By the way, in 100 words or less, please tell me which parts go where (joke!) :icon_lol:

[Promethean]

Randy,
Any update on your adventure? Curious minds want to know. :)

[jamais]

Abhijeet, I found his story continuing on the BMW Sports Touring Forum,
http://bmwsporttouring.com/ubbthreads/ubbthreads.php , you'll have to do a search. He got some good advice over there. Apparently he was into removing the whole smear; gutsy guy for stating he had no mechanix knolwedge.

Remember, If its got tits or wheels, it'll give you problems!

[Promethean]

Thanks...I'll look it up.

I'm as mechanically proficient as Randy and hence the interest in how he's faring.


Abhijeet, I found his story continuing on the BMW Sports Touring Forum,
http://bmwsporttouring.com/ubbthreads/ubbthreads.php , you'll have to do a search. He got some good advice over there. Apparently he was into removing the whole smear; gutsy guy for stating he had no mechanix knolwedge.

Remember, If its got tits or wheels, it'll give you problems!