Business Opportunity for Si & Andy!

[DarthRider]

The company making the new Brough Superiors is up for sale...jump on it boys!
Jaythro can be your VP of Irish Sales, I'll handle Texas.
I'll need about $120K and a company bike...plus commision, part-time.
The bikes should be an easy sell at only $250,000 per!

http://wheels.blogs.nytimes.com/2011/01/18/replicating-the-brough-superior/

http://graphics8.nytimes.com/images/2011/01/18/automobiles/wheels-Brough-Superior-SS101/wheels-Brough-Superior-SS101-blog480.jpg

[vintagemxr]

"Mr. Upham was in New York last week discussing possible deals with watch and fashion producers. He also operates British Only Austria, a dealer of motorcycles and parts in Pettenbach, Austria, and where the Brough replicas are built. Mr. Upham already sells Brough-branded leather jackets, polo shirts and T-shirts on his Web site (http://www.brough-superior.com/)."

Somehow that just doesn't seem right. I wish people would just let the old brands rest in peace. Except for Triumph, of course, which was done right by Mr. Bloor.

the other Doug

[Sir Limpsalot]

. I wish people would just let the old brands rest in peace. Except for Triumph, of course, which was done right by Mr. Bloor.

the other Doug

Doug, you're right of course. John Bloor ("Saint John" to Brits of a certain age) has earned the undying gratitude of a generation of riders. Now, if he could get the rights to Norton..

[DarthRider]

I have nothing but admiration & respect for John Bloor and the (Hinkley) Triumph company. And I love their bikes!
But aren't they, along with all the Indian, Vincent, Norton, Brough Superior & (Royal) Enfield pretenders just trading on the names of ghosts? There is little if any real DNA for most, maybe all. Rather, just a legal "right", bought & paid for. Usually.
The sad part is that most are excellent motorcycles in their own right (especially Triumph), and don't really need a defunct name as a crutch. They are well good enough to stand on their own, it would just be inconvenient, marketing-wise.
As Triumph slightly changed the old Triumph logo to avoid legal entanglements, while "appearing" to be real/original, I see where whoever owns the "Indian" name has also changed it from the original "Indian Motocycles" to similar-but-different "Indian Motorcycles". And that's just wrong!
Motorcycles & lawyers...that's the problem.

[Dirty Doug]

Motorcycles & lawyers...that's the problem.

Dangerous Dave


One lawyer will starve to death in a small town, but two can make a good living. Remember it's 98% of the lawyers that give the rest of them a bad name.

Dirty ( I'll take the fifth ) Doug

[vintagemxr]

I have nothing but admiration & respect for John Bloor and the (Hinkley) Triumph company. And I love their bikes!
But aren't they, along with all the Indian, Vincent, Norton, Brough Superior & (Royal) Enfield pretenders just trading on the names of ghosts? There is little if any real DNA for most, maybe all. Rather, just a legal "right", bought & paid for. Usually.
The sad part is that most are excellent motorcycles in their own right (especially Triumph), and don't really need a defunct name as a crutch. They are well good enough to stand on their own, it would just be inconvenient, marketing-wise.
As Triumph slightly changed the old Triumph logo to avoid legal entanglements, while "appearing" to be real/original, I see where whoever owns the "Indian" name has also changed it from the original "Indian Motocycles" to similar-but-different "Indian Motorcycles". And that's just wrong!
Motorcycles & lawyers...that's the problem.

Yes, Triumph is trading on the name they bought as is MV Agusta, but at least both new companies went out and engineered motorcycles worthy of the name and available to a fairly wide market. I just wish both, especially Triumph, would get more involved in racing as befits their "heritage." A modern "Texas Ceegar" would be a fine thing.

I thought Indian, in it's present incarnation, might pull it off, their bikes are gorgeous, but the economy collapsed on top of their business plan and I wouldn't be surprised to see Indian close up shop once again as the market for $30k style-cruisers is sort of limited. More over, there seems to be no intention to sell Indians or (Nortons) to anyone but the well heeled and that bothers me, possibly because I'm not well heeled. When I see someone trying to revive a brand with boutique bikes and over priced t-shirts, jackets, and watches, it makes me a bit queasy as there is usually seems too much emphasis on the accessories and accouterments and not enough on the machine itself. These days the business world seems to have a remarkable ability to cheapen anything and everything it touches. That's my idealistic side showing.

About the Triumph script/logo: Seems like Triumph wound up owned by one fellow who just loved the brand and was selling spares and NOS parts as a business. I read way back about 1990 when John Bloor acquired Triumph that he bought the right to manufacture a bike so named but the right to the original logo was retained by the gentlemen who owned the brand at the point. Bloor bought the right to use a similar logo but not the original. Perhaps Si could flesh out that story a bit and correct my recollection as needed?

Indian and Bultaco are more interesting from a brand perspective as both companies lost control of their name and copyright along the way. Hugh Weaver of Hugh's Bultaco wound up owning "Bultaco" in the USA while the Indian name really got fragmented with different owners in the USA, Canada, and the UK. Not sure about elsewhere.

the other Doug

[Sir Limpsalot]

I think the only reason the Triumph logo was changed was to make it more "modern". In the early days of Hinkley, Bloor was keen to distance his new company from the old one, which had (quite deservedly) earned a bad reputation in it's last few years. John Bloor allowed Lester Harris to make T140 Bonnevilles in his Newton Abbot works to keep the name alive while the new company was developing the new machines, equiping the factory and so on, in secret.
A new range of Triumphs caught the imagination of the motorcycling world far more than a range of "Bloors" ever would have done. There is plenty of Meriden dna in those long stroke triples from Hinkley, anyway. And the twins are just what Meriden would have made if things had been different.

Si.

[DarthRider]

I think the interim Triumph guy was Les Harris.
Another part of the Triumph logo story was that since the demise of the "real" Triumph company, and even before, every t-shirt printer on the planet was selling shirts with the original logo.
Now Bloor & Company, like Harley, from before the start intended to aggressively protect the Triumph logo. But the legal battles & impracticality of it would have made it impossible to protect the original. So they used the same name and similar logo and then protected them, letting history, posterity & the t-shirt printers more or less "have" the original logo.
Sort of like Indian Motocycle & Indian Motorcycle, few people know and fewer care about the differences of the 2 Triumph logos.
Incidentally, the new Triumph logo has been changed at least once and I believe twice under Mr. Bloor's ownership.

Si, were those "Les Harris" Bonnevilles any good? They were never imported here as far as I know.

[vintagemxr]

Ah, I knew I could count on you guys! :remybussi:

the other Doug

[DarthRider]

Si, I just saw your post.
When (new) Triumph changed the already-changed new logo, did you hear any grumbling amongst the Triumph dealers?
Boy, they did here! I think there were "compromises" made on signage, phone book ads, etc. so it turned out to be no big deal, but it initially looked to be expensive and a major PITA. If I had not seen the 2 new logos side by side, I probably wouldn't even noticed the difference. Some ad agency "earning their keep" I expect!

Personally I wish they could have kept the old, original one. Like Indian, Harley, Ford, Norton, Coca Cola and so many more, it was timeless & beautiful. Ducati has changed theirs so many times, it almost gives the impression that they are trying to "keep changing until they get it right!"

Here, you guys decide which one you like the best:
"Old" logo.
http://www.sorenwinslow.com/Img/Triumph/1936-1985-Triumph-Logo.jpg

"New" logo, v-1.
http://www.sorenwinslow.com/Img/Triumph/1990-2004-Triumph-Logo.jpg

"New" logo, v-2.
http://www.sorenwinslow.com/Img/Triumph/2005-Triumph-Logo.jpg

[Donson]

I like the original.

[Sir Limpsalot]

Dave, the Harris T140's were actually rather good. Because much of the original stuff was unavailable they used things like twin Brembo discs, Paoli forks and dampers etc. As they were hand assembled in small numbers build quality was high. Of course, the Triumph faithful wouldn't give them a second glance. "Not realBonnies". For ages the prices of used examples were way lower than a Meriden "original". I should have bought a couple 'cause they're highly sought after now..

Si.

As to the logo's, I like the original and the first of the updates. I'm sure there's been a further update of the update of the update. Hey, I'll call in to our local shop tomorrow and check. I need another look at that 800 Tiger XC. Finished in white it's stunning!

[DarthRider]

Were they "oil in frame"?
Nobody liked the oil in frame models here, but Ed Mabry has a little "cottage industry" going in modifying them & swing arms for vintage road racing, and street trackers & cafe bikes. They are very, very good...assuming the suspensions & tires are up to the task!:ricky:

[Sir Limpsalot]

They were essentially a T140. Only the "accesories" were different. Amal had gone bust so they used Mikuni carbs, that sort of thing. The OIF models were hated here for years, but the lower prices they command, compared to the sixties models, now makes them sought after. They fetch roughly half what a pre- oif T120 does.

Si.

[vintagemxr]

I like the original.

I'm with Donson. Tradtion and style win out.

the other Doug