Larry Grodsky, MC Safety Instructor Dies

[arkline]

Larry Grodsky, a contributor to Rider Magazine, who taught riding safety classes has died in Texas, the result of a deer strike.

http://roadracingworld.com/news/article/?article=25446

A great loss.

[DarthRider]

Damn worthless deer...
We hear way too much of this, but this is the first deer strike fatality I've heard of.
Sad.

Dave

[Bones]

The irony of all ironies. Grodsky, as you all know, wrote about MC saftey and really knew his stuff. The courses he ran, as I understand it, were truly outstanding.

A friend of mine here rode his RT to Virginia a year or two ago to do a course with Larry Grodsky and he said he learned more about street riding than he thought imaginable (and this is coming from a very experienced and thoughtful riding). Taking one of his courses was on my "to do" lists regarding motorcycling.

A real loss and very sad.


Jeff

[supermotoC]

Riding in Texas this weekend was not so safe.
Apparently, he tagged a deer around 9pm. Riding at NIGHT is really not safe, especially in the wilds of Texas.
RIP Larry

[Ed K]

Geez...sorry to hear the bad news...

[BobFV1]

RIP

Stupid deer -

http://www.dashmats4less.com/alh_10025.jpg

[Wild Will]

I hate deer. They are not cute, Bambi-esque creatures of the forst when they dart out like a lethal hollow point round right at you. I would be relieved if they became extinct. Why? Because they kill and maim US on a regular basis.
They are 200 pound meat missiles. I can regale you with the most disgusting stories about these tall rodents as they're highly dangerous, day and night out here on the left coast. As a VFD/rescue guy, I've seen stuff that should make me stop riding. I never ride at night. You can't negotiate the curves where I live with your headlamps pointing straight ahead into the trees anyway.
Larry Grodsky dies doing what he loved. Let's hope those loving souls surrounded him and told him 'well done', as we shall do here on terra.
It's all a roll of the dice, brothers. Dress for the crash, and let's never forget our pals who've gone before us via moto accident. Larry will be sorely missed, as his column was very popular. He was a regular guy, doing what he loved and getting paid for it. I feel for his close pals and family.

[geechie]

What a tragedy. I've enjoyed reading him in Rider.

Deer have become a real danger in my neck of the woods too. Dawn and dusk are the absolute worst times. On the streches of road where I'm most likely to encounter them, I thumb my horn repeatedly. A couple of weeks ago, on my way home from chorus rehearsal, I was tooting my way down the road, and I went by a deer that watched me pass. Point is, I had is attention and he did watch me.

Ride on, Larry.

George

[Road Dog]

It really pisses me off that all the ranchers/hunters can feed and grow the herds. They can introduce non-native species of deer that are active all day but they don't have to put up game fences to contain the herds they have developed.

I live in a semi suburban area. Last October, on the 14 miles of two lane highway I drive to get to the freeway there were 8 dead deer on one day.

I've been lucky, the only deer I've hit so far was an Asian deer in the middle of the highway in a dense fog. I had to ask the following rider, what I hit. It was like running over a poodle, thank goodness. I hope my luck contiunes.

Bill

[BobFV1]

FYI - Jeff Dean just posted this on the MSF insructor web site:

__________________________________________

Myron Cope's nephew killed when bike strikes deer

By Jill King Greenwood
PITTSBURGH TRIBUNE-REVIEW
Tuesday, April 11, 2006

A world-renowned motorcycle safety expert from Squirrel Hill was killed
over the weekend in a motorcycle accident in Texas.

Larry Grodsky, 55, owner of Stayin' Safe Motorcycle Training, died after
a deer ran in front of his motorcycle Saturday night in Fort Stockton,
Texas.

Grodsky, a Gateway High School graduate, had a decades-long love affair
with motorcycles and trained celebrities including Ted Koppel and Mike
Tyson on safe-driving techniques.

He was the nephew of Myron Cope, the longtime Pittsburgh Steelers
announcer who retired last year.

"He had a lot of friends in high places, and all over the world," said
Grodsky's father, Harold Grodsky, 85, of Monroeville. "Everybody loved
Larry."

His mother, Violet Grodsky, also 85, said her son began riding
motorcycles while attending Ohio University, where he graduated with an
English degree in 1968.

He spent a few years teaching in Ohio schools and doing freelance
writing for several magazines before returning to Pittsburgh and opening
his training center, Violet Grodsky said.

Grodsky, who was single, traveled the country attending training and
safety seminars and was returning from a conference in California when
the accident happened. An officer with the Texas Department of Public
Safety said he did not know whether Grodsky was wearing a helmet or what
kind of motorcycle he was driving.

Grodsky had many friends and valued the work he did for charity, his
father said.

He participated in charity motorcycle events and did other volunteer
work, Harold Grodsky said.

"That was typical of Larry to always be helping other people and
thinking about those who had less or were suffering," he said.

Luke Hingson, president of the Brother's Brother Foundation in the North
Side, said Grodsky helped the organization raise money for the victims
of the December 2004 tsunami in Southeast Asia and for victims of
Hurricanes Katrina and Rita.

Karen Dempsey, director of development for Brother's Brother, said
Grodsky auctioned off lessons at his center on eBay and raised $2,250
for hurricane victims and solicited another $1,235 in donations for the
foundation's hurricane relief work.

"We're very saddened by his death," Hingson said. "He did a lot of great
work for us."

Visitation will be today from 1 to 2 p.m. at Burton L. Hirsch Funeral
Home Inc., 2704 Murray Ave., Squirrel Hill. A service will follow.

In lieu of flowers, Grodsky's relatives have asked that memorial
contributions be made in his name to Brother's Brother.

Jill King Greenwood can be reached at jgreenwood@tribweb.com or
412-321-2160.

[supermotoC]

I've met a few local (BMW) riders that have had near-misses w/ mule deer, and some strikes. After clamping on the binders from 70+, one fellow struck a deer head on, breaking the steering head(!) of his K1200RS and was able to keep it upright to a dead stop. Deer was a goner, bike junk, and he was possibly in need of some clean boxers. Texas DPS officer took it all in, and within a week he had a bill from the Game Warden for $200 (fine for accidently killing a deer out-of-season)! Talk about insult to injury!!
Of course, if you steal horses or cattle in Texas, we can hang you. It's on the books.
Deer whistles (whether they work or not) are very popular in Arkansas, Oklahoma, and Texas. Riding at dusk and dawn are the 2 most dangerous times, because of lighting issues, and because of waking/predatory animals.
I've had bear cross in front of me more than once in the Eureka Springs area of Arkansas.

[Deano]

I've met a few local (BMW) riders that have had near-misses w/ mule deer, and some strikes. After clamping on the binders from 70+, one fellow struck a deer head on, breaking the steering head(!) of his K1200RS and was able to keep it upright to a dead stop. Deer was a goner, bike junk, and he was possibly in need of some clean boxers. Texas DPS officer took it all in, and within a week he had a bill from the Game Warden for $200 (fine for accidently killing a deer out-of-season)! Talk about insult to injury!!
Of course, if you steal horses or cattle in Texas, we can hang you. It's on the books.
Deer whistles (whether they work or not) are very popular in Arkansas, Oklahoma, and Texas. Riding at dusk and dawn are the 2 most dangerous times, because of lighting issues, and because of waking/predatory animals.
I've had bear cross in front of me more than once in the Eureka Springs area of Arkansas.

It’s a pity he could not submit a bill to the Game Warden for a new bike, since one of his charges caused its demolition.

[Dallara]

Boy, do I know I am going to open a huge can of worms here, but...

No offense to you fella's who think deer should somehow be exterminated to extinction, but are you really serious? I'm no "treehugger", nor a member of Greenpeace or anything like that, but hasn't the incredibly wonderful human race driven quite enough aninmal species to extinction?

I will freely admit to at one time being a truly avid hunter, but now I don't kill anything... Yet I still gladly feed the deer and other wildlife on our ranch. Nothing is quite so relaxing, or beautiful, than sitting on the front porch of the ranch house early in the morning sipping a cup of coffee and watching the deer, turkey, etc. come out to feed and water. They don't bother a soul, folks, and are damn sure a lot less vocal about all the death the human race causes to each of their kind than the whiners here about them taking out one human being in a few million.

Remember this my anti-four-legged Cafe'ers... It is man who has continually and unrelentingly encroached and eliminated the natural habitat of all these creatures just so we could continue to spawn more Wal-Mart's, McDonald's, truck stops, parking lots, golf course communities, outlet malls in the middle of nowhere, etc.... You know, all that incredibly necessary stuff none of us can live without. Personally, I would love to see a ton more deer and other wildlife than even one more friggin' K-Mart or Burger King.

Listen folks... Deer and other wildlife actually injure or kill far, far, FAR fewer motorcyclists than do the bloody inattentive cagers bopping around in their air conditioned, insulated, coccooned, cell phone equiped, DVD playing, satellite receiver radioed SUV's... Yet I don't see any one of you crying out long and loud for the eradication of the human species. Deer don't push us continually off their grazing areas, nor do they commit murder of any kind or intent, nor do they mewl, moan, whimper, and whine about how many thousands of their kind get slaughtered every year by supposedly the custodians and caretakers of the planet Earth - the Human Race.

Like it or not, people... WE DO NOT OWN THE PLANET! It is not ours and ours alone to do with as we see fit. That deer has just as much right to be here, alive on this Earth, as you do... Yet he is not so arrogant, not so conceited, not so self-centered, as to even remotely insinuate that humans should be wiped from the face of the Earth.

It's a dangerous place out there in the world, folks... And if deer scare you that much, even more so than your own potential for making a rider error that could kill you just as quick, then I have but one piece of advice for ya' - Stay home, and stay off your motorcycle - 'cuz if you think that an entire species should be extinct just so you can feel a tiny bit safer riding your motorcycle, then the problem is not the deer... but located somewhere closer to between your ears.

And I don't care one nano-whit who I make mad with this post.

Allan (Dallara - NACD)

p.s. - and yes, I have struck an animal while riding, and it bugged me for days that I killed him for no reason other than my need for recreation.

[supermotoC]

I, for one, am glad there aren't any animals on this planet that accidently kill humans during their recreational exercises.

[Deano]

Boy, do I know I am going to open a huge can of worms here, but...



I do not advocate extermination of any species, much less deer. I do, however, think that being issued a summons for striking a deer with a motor vehicle is a ludicrous application of wildlife management regulations, and hence my irreverent comment.

Development and elimination of natural predators has caused many deer-related issues in the mid-Atlantic, and I suspect in other areas of the country as well. And, according to some well known “tree-hugging” and wild-life management organizations, feeding wildlife can exacerbate the problem, as well as adversely affect wildlife directly. You may wish to consider that the next time you put out feed for the purpose of enhancing your morning coffee.

As far as deer being not so arrogant, not so conceited and not so self-centered as to insinuate that humans should be wiped from the face of the earth, I believe that you give them too much credit. That is, at least, until you can figure out a way to have a philosophical discussion with said deer, and truly determine their collective views on the matter. No offense to the Doctor Doolittles out there.

And yes, your comments RE: risks are well stated. And no, you did not make me mad with your post. Just had some free time and was feeling rather unproductive.

[supermotoC]

You may wish to consider that the next time you put out feed for the purpose of enhancing your morning coffee.

Huh? How can I enhance my coffee with deer? I am always looking for the holy grail of my "cup of joe".

[Bones]

I don't think the elimination of a few LEGISLATORS who try to write into law "solutions" to many of our society's problems would be much of a loss.

Jeff

[Road Dog]

No offense to you fella's who think deer should somehow be exterminated to extinction, but are you really serious?

Here is a little snippet from the Texas Deer Hunters Assn:

In Texas the native herd is a staggering 4 million wild whitetails, the largest free-ranging herd in the nation. Texas is also home to the nation's largest captive cervid herd, the animals held by breeders.

Together, the two herds form the basis of the state's $2.5 billion sport hunting industry.

The import ban was meant to protect a "clean" herd and to give state game officials time to formulate a plan of action.

I don't want anything exterminated with the exception of the spyders in my garage.

But when you have the nations largest captive herd, import stock, manage herds and feed herds you almost have a domesticated herd. I would like to see a little better herd control - ala game fences. I used to hunt but gave it up for the same reason I gave up boating on crowded lakes. Becides hunting these days is kind of like fishing in a stocked pool. It's a business. The business stock should be better protected.

Just my point of view.:eusa_wall:

[Dallara]

Hmmmmm... Interesting...

Bones,

I'm with you about the legislators, wholeheartedly. In my hunting days I believe I would have felt much less remorse taking out certain politicians than I ever did slaying an animal that I didn't shoot as a trophy, but to eat.


Collyer,

Believe me, morning coffee with deer is much more enjoyable, relaxing, and life affirming than coffee with any number of people I know... and far more peaceful.


Dean-O,

Where do I begin? Hmmmm... Let's see...

Would you expect to get a citation, and perhaps much more, were you to hit and kill a human being with a motor vehicle? Either way, you just committed vehicular homicide. I think a paltry $200 for taking the life of the animal, without the proper license and in the wrong season, is getting off pretty light... Besides, exactly who do you think is going to come out and pick up the carcass, and then properly dispose of it? Or should we just leave it by the side of the road to rot?

Those people who come out there and pick up dead animals get paid, too, and I have yet to see a motorist offer to do the disposal.

As for feeding the animals on the ranch my family has owned for years... Well, I would like to think we have a pretty good handle on game management considering we have been doing it a very, very long time (and me, literally all my life...). And we have these nasty things down here we call *droughts*, along with all sorts of predators, that do plenty to take a huge bite out of the animal population... See, the only thing I kill any more are rattlesnakes, and them only if they are in an area where they can all too easily come into contact with pets or children. Otherwise I leave them alone, too... And all to maintain *the balance* on our place. See, I like having the dove, quail, turkeys, rabbits, deer, etc. around, and yes, even the coyote's, javelina, feral hogs, hawks, and buzzards. They all have their place in the world, and I just try and fit in with them. Somehow I don't honestly think that me and my family trying to peacefully coexist on our little piece of the planet - and occasionally helping out those animal friends with some food and water - does very much, if anything, to adversely effect them or other wildlife, or exacerbate "the problem" they have in the world with humans encroaching on their fair share of the real estate of the world. But more importantly, the Texas Parks & Wildlife Department seems to think we manage our property and the animal population quite well, thankyouverymuch. As long as they're happy I think I'll stick with what works...

As for communicating with the deer... Well, I have raised dogs all my life, both as home pets and watch dogs, as well as German short-hair pointers for quail hunting and Labradors for retreiving - and some of our deer are so tame they will walk right up within 30 to 50 feet from you and graze happily, almost without fear.

And you know what? Not one damn time have any of those animals try to rob me, break into my house, come at me with a gun, or do one other even remotely threatening thing to me... unlike the species of man. Hell, animals seem to be genuinely grateful when you do something nice for 'em, unlike a lot of people I know. And I can't count how many times a dog of mine has put HIMSELF in harm's way to save me and my family from possible attack, injury, or to protect my property.

To me, all of that is a pretty good indicator that none of the species mentioned wants to clear away my house so he can encroach on my part of the planet...

Or are you implying that deer, by running onto or across man-made roadways (which they don't understand) in front of or into cars or motorcycles (which they don't understand, much less those vehicles speed or kinetic energy), are somehow doing so as some sort of suicidal gesture to try and eradicate human beings from the face of the Earth?

Hmmmmmmm....

Cheers!

Allan (Dallara - NACD)

[supermotoC]

Yikes - sorry for the thread hi-jack.

I think everyone has a point on this thread - some sharper than others.

I like coffee, and I like deer. I like motorcycling, but not while drinking coffee. I also like animals, but not killing them or spilling my coffee on them.


RIP Larry. I hope he's riding with Barry Sheene.

[Wild Will]

are a huge problem where I live. They have caused the demise and maiming of several of my friends by running in front of them. The local tourists who rent high zoot homes here feed them, and the raccoons. They have no predators left. Hunting season is a week. The highway is littered with deer corpses, and I don't know many folks who've not hit a deer with their vehicle at some point.
As a motorcyclist, which is my main hobby/passion/thing, I hate things that run in front of me while I'm riding. You cannot ride and constantly think of death coming at you from out of the woods, but it happens. I'm not a rancher, but I hope I'm a survivor, and personally I would miss deer about as much as I miss the homing pigeon. Damn! I'm glad I don't have to think about the huge problem in Australia that some pals tell me is caused by the huge kangaroo population. I hear it's much worse than deer are here.
So Bless Larry Grodsky, and Jim A., Howard J., Kurt M., Dickie S., Jim R., and all the others. The last five guys were all friends who were killed by "suicidal meat missiles", just like Larry.

[Acacia]

Alan's perspective makes a lot of sense to me.

I have spent countless days/weeks/months game and bird watching in my native Africa and do it when ever I get the priviledge here in my adopted country too.

Deer are not the problem. They were here long before our flat feet stomped the land, minding their own business. It is us humans, who for our own conveneince, change the environment to suit ourselves and in many instances, greed, and then consider wildlife to be the intruders.

I do support balanced environmental management.

[Deano]

Would you expect to get a citation, and perhaps much more, were you to hit and kill a human being with a motor vehicle? Either way, you just committed vehicular homicide.

Well, I f I struck a pedestrian who was crossing the street in a marked crosswalk, or under other conditions where an attentive driver could reasonably avoid striking such a pedestrian, then yes, I would expect a summons, at the very least. However, if the unfortunate soul decided to bolt out of the brush growing along I-495 in an effort to make it to other side, and was struck and killed, I would think such a citation would be in error. Are you implying that the deer in question was engaged in a legal crossing of a busy thoroughfare? If not, perhaps the deer should have been issued a summons for jaywalking?


I think a paltry $200 for taking the life of the animal, without the proper license and in the wrong season, is getting off pretty light... Besides, exactly who do you think is going to come out and pick up the carcass, and then properly dispose of it? Or should we just leave it by the side of the road to rot?

Those people who come out there and pick up dead animals get paid, too, and I have yet to see a motorist offer to do the disposal.

Characterizing the accidental striking of a deer with a motor vehicle as hunting out of season without a proper license is a ludicrous application of the law, unless it is clear that was the driver’s intent. Hunting deer with a motorcycle should be grounds for involuntary committal, in my opinion.

As far as cleaning up road kill goes, those costs are paid for by tax dollars. If you wish to shift that burden to a user fee arrangement for those drivers with the misfortune to strike wildlife, then perhaps a carcass disposal fee would be appropriate. But to characterize such events as illegal hunting is a gross misapplication of regulatory authority.


As for feeding the animals on the ranch my family has owned for years... Well, I would like to think we have a pretty good handle on game management considering we have been doing it a very, very long time (and me, literally all my life...). And we have these nasty things down here we call *droughts*, along with all sorts of predators, that do plenty to take a huge bite out of the animal population... See, the only thing I kill any more are rattlesnakes, and them only if they are in an area where they can all too easily come into contact with pets or children. Otherwise I leave them alone, too... And all to maintain *the balance* on our place. See, I like having the dove, quail, turkeys, rabbits, deer, etc. around, and yes, even the coyote's, javelina, feral hogs, hawks, and buzzards. They all have their place in the world, and I just try and fit in with them. Somehow I don't honestly think that me and my family trying to peacefully coexist on our little piece of the planet - and occasionally helping out those animal friends with some food and water - does very much, if anything, to adversely effect them or other wildlife, or exacerbate "the problem" they have in the world with humans encroaching on their fair share of the real estate of the world. But more importantly, the Texas Parks & Wildlife Department seems to think we manage our property and the animal population quite well, thankyouverymuch. As long as they're happy I think I'll stick with what works...


Sounds like a very nice arrangement, and I envy you. No doubt you are sound steward of your family’s holdings, for which you should be proud. However, my comments RE: feeding wildlife are based upon my inability to find any reputable source that characterizes feeding wildlife as anything but undesirable, largely for it’s negative impact upon those creatures that learn to depend on artificial sources of food.


As for communicating with the deer... Well, I have raised dogs all my life, both as home pets and watch dogs, as well as German short-hair pointers for quail hunting and Labradors for retreiving - and some of our deer are so tame they will walk right up within 30 to 50 feet from you and graze happily, almost without fear.

Tame deer have a distinct survival disadvantage. As long as you are happy with that outcome, so be it.


And you know what? Not one damn time have any of those animals try to rob me, break into my house, come at me with a gun, or do one other even remotely threatening thing to me... unlike the species of man. Hell, animals seem to be genuinely grateful when you do something nice for 'em, unlike a lot of people I know. And I can't count how many times a dog of mine has put HIMSELF in harm's way to save me and my family from possible attack, injury, or to protect my property.

To me, all of that is a pretty good indicator that none of the species mentioned wants to clear away my house so he can encroach on my part of the planet...

If deer, or any other creature, successfully acquire opposable thumbs and the brain capacity to alter their environment, I suspect we might have a rather different risk environment. And if Fido could figure out how to handle a firearm I have no doubt that he would employ such a tool in defense, and furtherance of, his pack.


Or are you implying that deer, by running onto or across man-made roadways (which they don't understand) in front of or into cars or motorcycles (which they don't understand, much less those vehicles speed or kinetic energy), are somehow doing so as some sort of suicidal gesture to try and eradicate human beings from the face of the Earth?



No, I was not implying anything of the sort. Oh well, back to the salt mine….

[geechie]

Brian wrote...

I do support balanced environmental management.

Me too Brian. Most any rational person would have to agree. The hardest part is finding a balance point that satisfies all the parties.

I work for South Carolina's Department of Natural Resources, Marine Division. We deal with issues like this all the time and there is rarely concensus.

We figure if everybody is mad at us, we've hit that balance point pretty well.

George

[Dallara]

Well, it's easy to see that Maryland isn't Texas, Dean-O... And I, for one, am sure glad I live down here in Texas and not up there. Of course, the Eastern part of the United States is where human beings have encroached the most on wildlife, and continue to spread like a plague over the landscape - all in the name of resculpting the landscape to become a human-only-centric environment - putting up more concrete, steel, and asphalt to serve supposedly art, government, bureaucracy, mass transit, big business, etc. All of this supposed *growth* and *progress* leaves wildlife very little place to go, eh? No wonder the various forms of wildlife in the area are FORCED into erratic behaviors.

Remember, the poor deer don't have any understanding of the stupidity of man, or his vehicles and their mass and capabilities. The deer is simply trying to find food and mate. That deer has about as much understanding of the physics invovled between he and motor vehicle as you and I do of the surface topography of Pluto.

Trying to blame deer strikes with motor vehicles operated by man on the deer is like trying to blame the deforestation of the Brazilian rain forest on the trees.

It goes beyond idiotic...

And I have to chuckle at this comment from you:


"Sounds like a very nice arrangement, and I envy you. No doubt you are sound steward of your family’s holdings, for which you should be proud. However, my comments RE: feeding wildlife are based upon my inability to find any reputable source that characterizes feeding wildlife as anything but undesirable, largely for it’s negative impact upon those creatures that learn to depend on artificial sources of food."

You should look a bit harder, but then that wouldn't support your premise. Perhaps you should try some wildlife and game management before you suggest that those who actually do it are wrong, eh?

Putting out feed to support the wildlife and game population when there is no natural food in the environment due to things like drought is not making that wildlife dependent on artificial sources of food. It is simply assisting them to survive until their normal food supply returns. Perhaps you support the idea that no relief food, etc. should have been flown or trucked into New Orleans because it might make the populace dependent on those relief sources forever, right?

But you go on to say:


"Tame deer have a distinct survival disadvantage. As long as you are happy with that outcome, so be it."

Perhaps I used the inappropriate term when I used "tame"... Our deer are not "tame". We certainly don't have them doing tricks in the front yard or fetching a tennis ball. No, they simply treat humans like they treat any other creature that poses them no threat... They certainly will not let you touch them, or even get near that close. You might try reading what I wrote again, carefully, before you assume our treatment of them has hampered their survival skills regarding predators. And since our surrounding ranch neighbors don't hunt deer, either, or allow hunting on their property, it doesn't effect the deer's survival regarding humans, either. Again, you jump to an inappropriate conclusion.

As I said previously, we work quite closely with the Texas Parks & Wildlife department regarding wildlife and game management... and we have done so for decades on two ranches (our previous one is now underwater where the Choke Canyon Resevoir and Wildlife Refuge is located). Since we have greatly increased the deer, quail, and other resident wildlife dramatically, on both places, over all those years, I will, as I said before, stick with what has worked for us...

And not depend on someone in Maryland who has never done anything like it down here...

But really, Dean-O, do you actually believe this statement you made?


"If deer, or any other creature, successfully acquire opposable thumbs and the brain capacity to alter their environment, I suspect we might have a rather different risk environment. And if Fido could figure out how to handle a firearm I have no doubt that he would employ such a tool in defense, and furtherance of, his pack."


Yeah, right... And if my aunt had balls she'd be my friggin' uncle. If frogs had wings they wouldn't bump their...

Well, you know.

But let me put it another way. One on one, with no weapons, let's put you and dog less than half your size in an open pasture... Then you threaten the dog, okay? I know which one I'd bet on to be the winner in that fight. Better yet, let's put you and a male deer in a game-fench high enclosure, with just you and no weapons, and you threaten him... No doubt who will win that fight, either.

Point of those two exercises? The deer and the dog don't NEED opposable thumbs or any more brain capacity to turn you into a bloody stump AS LONG AS THE ODDS ARE EVEN! Man has to arm himself with guns, bows and arrows, poison, bulldozers, two-ton or more automobiles, or half-ton motorcycles doing 70 MPH to even stand a chance. Why? Because the animals are far better equipped to survive in a non-mechanized world. Put you out in the wild wiht nothing, and I mean NOTHING - not a knife, not a stitch of clothes on your back, nothing - and you couldn't survive a week most likely. If the sun didn't get you the predators would. Guess putting you in the deer's environment, equipped the way he is, puts YOU at a distinct survival "disadvantage", eh?

But before I go, let me address Wild Will for a moment...

Will, man has certainly killed a whole lot more of the deer than thye have caused the death of your friends and fellow human beings, wouldn't you agree? In fact, were the deer to think in such base terms as you promote, he would see you and your riding friends as no more than "suicidal meat missles" on metal steeds, eh?

It's funny how you continue to address deer as your "enemy", suitable only for extinction, yet you completely avoid the fact that it human beings driving cars and trucks that are your biggest threat to survival when you ride your bike... What was that story you were telling us about the White Dodge dually truck? How many of your motorcycle riding brethren have been kiiled by encounters with other motorists?

Why aren't you pressing for their extinction? After all, local tourists AND residents who rent and own those high-zoot homes feed them, and the raccoons, too, right?

Or is it your human-centric belief that man is somehow superior to all other creatures and deserves the entire planet all to himself that drives your distaste for deer?

One more time... You are far more likely to kill YOU with a mistake in judgement or error than it will be a deer that gets you... And it is even far more likely that it will be another inattentive or negligent human being that takes you out than a deer, too. So, shouldn't you be suggesting, ahead of the deer, that human beings go the way of the homing pigeon?

Try to answer that one honestly, please...

Allan (Dallara - NACD)

[Gord]

The death of any rider is a tragedy regardless of circumstances. There are other people on other sites who would think otherwise, but that is a different debate from a different time.

The only lesson I gather from this is that no matter what your skill level and capability, you can never be in 100% control of your fate. That applies if you are walking, running, flying, driving or riding. Your skill and capability can minimize the odds, but never leave you in complete control. And on a motorcycle, the risk of death or injury is greater than other forms of transport. It's why we pay the insurance we do.

I am heading to Newfoundland in June. It is rumoured to have the densest population of moose of any jurisdiction in North America. I have no desire to drive through a moose (or bounce off one). So I will ride ever vigilant - and during daylight hours only (avoiding dawn and dusk). To maximize my survival odds.

That is the lesson I am taking away from all this.

[Dallara]

And that's exactly the point, Gord.

It just ain't the deer's fault. People can look for somebody or something to blame, but trying to blame a deer that is just trying to get through a much more hazardous life than we lead is ludicrous in the extreme.

As you pointed out, we all participate in a very dangerous, potentially fatal, recreational pursuit (unlike the deer who is struggling each and every day just ot survive on his wits alone), and WE ARE EACH RESPONSIBLE FOR OUR OWN ACTIONS, or damn sure should be. If deer and other critters scare you out there then you got no business being out there, period.

Why?

Because there are a whole lot more potentially dangerous things out there than animals - like semi-trucks with crap falling off the back, drunks in pick-ups, women putting make-up on in 3-ton SUV's, asshole jabbering on their cell phones aboard their Mercedes doing twice the posted limit, railroad ties dropped on the roadway, retirees weaving lane ot lane in 50-foot motorhomes looking for their turn-off 2,000 miles from home, potholes, oil spills, gravel, chipseal, rocks, water, and a thousand other things worse than deer.

Nobody is safe. All you can do is be, as you say, ever vigilant, and hope it's not *your* time.

Gord, I only some of the others here will consider this... No one here on this board, that I am aware, has hunters looking them through scopes on high-powered rifles trying to bag them for their freezer or for their rack, nor do they have predators like wolves, coyotes, etc. trying ot eat them for dinner each and every moment of their lives, not to mention that they don't have to forage on the ground for food and perhaps have to cross man-made roadways with motorcycle-riding "meat missiles" whizzing down them at 80 MPH.

Incidently, riding a bicycle is the single most dangerous thing you can do in the United States, and recreational boating is not too far behind. You know what kills more bicyclists?

When the bicycle tries to cut across traffic, much like a deer suddenly darting across the road...

So who should become extinct in those bicyclist-motorist fatal confrontations? The bicyclist or the motorist?

Cheers!

Allan (Dallara -NACD)

[Wild Will]

Well, whether man has killed more than deer is a moot point to me here. The point is that, relating to my favorite sport, motorcycling in all its aspects, deer are one of the paramount dangers of riding. Maybe it's different in Texas, but here in the redwoods it's a toss of the dice whether a heavy animal with a pea brain will shoot right across my path at any moment, with no warning, and cause havoc. Man's inhumanity to the environment or to himself/the earth is not the issue here. Neither is the fact that the US Army gave infected blankets to the Indians to make them extinct. Nobody's going to kill all the deer, but they are a huge danger to motorcyclists and drivers in general. It's probably different where you live, but here they are regarded by sport riders and cruisers in general as highly dangerous. They are nothing more than tall mice, road going deadly rodents who do lots of damage to us and our preferred method of transportation, motor vehicles. But, they are frequently deadly to riders.
It's not funny re: deer as the enemy. You have a far different outlook than I. Traffic is scant where I live, and I expect a truck to be around that blind corner, and that's why I've trained myself to stay to the right in my lane as far as is possible. I can skate past a truck in the road, but a deer that mindlessly hurls itself into the void in front of me is not something I can avoid all the time. FAR more of my brethren have been incapacitated by deer than by cars. Well, one was done in by a feral hog, but it's the same genre - extreme road hazard to motorcyclists. I continue to see deer as my enemy. It's a healthy way to look at it where I live. By the way, I choose to live where I do because of the wonderful back roads and scant traffic.
What would be the point of pressing for deers extinction? It's a moot point. It's impossible. We'll all be extinct via a little gift from Al Qaeda before the deer are extinct, Dallara.
Yep, I see man as more important than deer. I EAT deer. I eat lots of things that would rather I didn't. Man has taken dominion over the earth, for good or bad. That's just the way it is. If I had to make my clothes from deer skin I might feel differently, but I don't. It has nothing to do with a human-centric view of life on earth, but that's an appropriate way of looking at it. It's Mans' show, for better or for worse.
I don't agree that it's far more likely that I'll kill myself, Dallara. You have no idea about who or what I am other than an intelligence at the other side of an electronic page. You don't know how many deadly things I've faced in life, on several continents, and it's a moot point. I am a motorcyclist. I am a very experienced one. I am my own mechanic. I have taken several track/riding courses. I have cleared my own forest and built my own ranch, solo. I wasn't lucky enough to inherit a ranch, or anything else. Thye buck stopped here. Riding is second nature to me, and I have come to loathe deer as a sunbather loathes the flies that torment them on the beach.
I don't shoot them when they're in my garden, after they've broken through the fence. I don't poach them because that's not right. But they are my enemy, a mindless, unthinking, ungainly one that is far, far more dangerous than the cattle that graze in open pastures here, with no fences, or the scant tourista is his Lexus cruising the coast.
Maybe one day I'll crack, Dallara, and hunt them down one by one. Or maybe one will take me out as I hooligan my way happily in my Aerostich and Arai, and all points will become moot to me.
All my answers are honest. Honesty is all I have ultimately. I have no need to lie. That's how I raised my boys, and it took. Your reasoning is sort of medieval, suggesting I should be desirious of Mans' demise instead of deer. I
DO NOT want Mans' demise; I want the opposite. I want him to flourish in utopian splendor, and all the peoples of the earth to live as brothers. I do not miss the homing pigeon, the saber tooth tiger nor Cro Magnon teen age girls, And I certainly wouldn't miss the deer that are a plague to motorcyclists in my neck of the woods.
This forum is, for me at least, motorcycle based. If we were on an ecology forum I'd be blowing smoke at a fan, as it were. But as a sport biker, dyed in the wool, 40 years in the saddle and counting, deer suck.

[Bones]

Well, this has certainly become interesting.

A few things should be clarified, I think. But they will not likely change anyone's position here.

First, deer are not mindless. They have DIFFERENT minds, but they are not mindless. They process the environment around them differently. They are prey animals, not predators. Having evolved that way, their central nervous system DEALS with incoming information differently than a prey animal. As a result, they exhibit behavior that to some, may seem "stupid."

Prey animals are driven by fear. Fear they will be taken down and eaten. They do NOT flee at every moving thing, because to do so would have them expending more energy than they can consume. So they stay still and graze until the predator comes relatively close, then they wait until the "right moment" and flee PERPENDICULAR to the path of the predator. It is easier for them to get away from a bear, wolf or whatever is trying to eat them by doing that than running off parallel to the predator when it is further away. Simple evolutionary biology. That is how prey animals are wired.

Now, I have no love of deer when they hang out in the ditch by the side of the road, because one totalled the front end of my car a few years back. I stopped, waited for about 5 to cross the road, then when I thought it was clear, I started up again. I got to about 20 mph and the last one (now seperated from his herd) literally jumped from the ditch ONTO the hood of my car. His brain clearly thought I was some large predator lunging at him and off he went perpendicular to me. That is what they do. I kind of like the small herd on our property, though, even if one of the bucks likes to take a crap on our front steps from time to time (which I think he does to taunt our dog).

I am a dog lover. I have always had a dog and I can't speak highly enough about them as companions. They have enriched my life. BUT when I am riding and some miniature schnauzer takes off out of his yard after my feet at what seems like 70 mph, I am ready to go nuts. BUT that is what Fido is designed to do! I can't hold it against him, really.

I am fascinated when I hear about an animal becoming a "nuisance" do to overpopulation. Usually, we take their environment, bring them to the brink of extinction, then try to bring them back, then complain about them again. I am not against hunting, by the way. I am not any extreme tree hugger. But I find the arrogance "we" often project to be beyond annoying. We killed off millions of Bison. More recently it is the California Sealions.

Understanding evolutionary biology helps put all this into perspective. Read Temple Grandin's books. They are fantastic and really lend insight into these things.

And if you REALLY want to see evolutionary biology run amok, visit California, where humans have consumed far in excess of the land's natural resources and have exceeded the carrying capacity of that stand several times over. And most Californians are unapologetic about it.

Deer are one of the reasons riding is dangerous. But as Dallara said, riding a bike is statistically more dangerous overall. That is just the way it is. And it is the reason why I will not ride at night and won't ride near dusk anytime near rutting season.

Larry Grodsky, rest in peace, you have done us good . I think we all agree on that.

Jeff

[Dallara]

Geez! DOMINION??? Will, you've got to be kidding...

I don't know which is more arrogant - saying that man has "dominion over the earth", or implying that you are such an incredibly proficient motorcycle rider that you can't possibly make a mistake and have a fatal crash all by yourself.

Man certaily does NOT have "dominion over the earth..." Not by a long shot. That's simply a ludicrous misperception. Viruses, bacteria, and certainly insects (not to mention quite a few ocean creatures) have not only been here a hell of lot longer than fragile man, but are far better equipped for long-term survival. And let's not forget that one of those tiny viruses can take down Mighty Man with such ease as to almost defy adequate description. Mighty Man survives in a relatively narrow temperature range, and is so monumentally fragile that he has to use animal skins, plant fibers, or artificial means to keep himself in that range. The only reason he survives at all is because of his brain. Given his fragile carcass his species wouldn't survive a decade without it at the level it is.

Let's not forget that the dinosaurs once were the best adapted creatures out there, and they were gone in a flash and splash off the Yucatan peninsula... But the viruses, bacteria, and insects all survived quite well. The human race, with all of its technological might and higher brain function, could be gone just as easily and just as quickly... Unless, of course, you believe the movie "Armageddon" was a documentary. :101:

Your idea of man's "dominion over the earth..." is flawed delusion, and almost a joke... Literally, man is the most destructive force the world has ever seen - leveling natural habitat to replace it with something that is not self-sustaining, driving multiple species by the catalog full to complete extinction, poisoning the air we breath and the water we drink, and consuming all the world's natural resources at a horrific rate... Oh yeah, Baby! Man's running a great "dominion", alright.

As for your flawless and error-free riding talent, Will... Well, I will be glad to compare resumes for riding experience, skill level, etc., along with mechanical ability and accomlishments, if you want... And although I am quite positive I could dust you off and disappear over the horizon in front of you, I KNOW I am not so fantastic, so wonderful, and so talented and wonderous a rider that I am not the most likely candidate to off myself accidently by making a riding error... But maybe you're better than Mike Hailwood, who even after multiple world championships on motorcycles and a career in Formula One, died in street car crash!

I don't care how "second nature" riding is to you... You're still not THAT good, period. To even suggest that you can't possibly make a potentially fatal error gives conceited a bad name, Will, and puts your claim of equally flawless honesty in question.

It was you who brought up the subject of being desirous of deer's extinction with the line "I'm not a rancher, but I hope I'm a survivor, and personally I would miss deer about as much as I miss the homing pigeon", or did you forget that? Anyone who suggests that deer are the most dangerous things out there for a motorcyclist is simply not living in reality, and the statistics bear that out, regardless of your phobia about them.

But in the end it all doesn't matter... You are going to continue to have this hate thing going for deer no matter what I say, and most likely continue to live in this illusion that Mighty Man is an all powerful custodian shaping his "dominion" so it will "flourish in utopian splendor" with the purpose to be to eliminate all animals that can possibly cross the road in front of a motorcyclist. After all, extinction of any species is no big deal, right? Unless its man, of course...

Cheers!

Allan (Dallara - NACD)

[Wild Will]

When I awoke today I decided to write a mea culpa because sometimes I'm a little intense when I'm reminded of my old friends who've been killed by deer strikes, brought to the forefront by Grodsky's death.
But upon reading your misssive, I'm struck by your certainty that you could "dust me off" with the flick of your superior wrist and ride away from me.
All the useless palaver adise, re: dinosaurs, etc., Allen, thiis is perhaps the most arrogant statement I've ever read. You, sir, have a massive ego issue which is apparent to me now, all your V 10 verbosity and powerful use of moto facts aside (which I've up till now enjoyed), you don't know me, have never seen me ride, and are shooting in the dark here to assuage your ego. I'm done with this banter, which is useless at this point. Apologies will not be given you, Dallara. You may be a powerful Texan in your area, and have sway with many powerful people, but it pales when you state that you can "dust off at will" a rideer whom you do not, and never will know.
Now it becomes apparent to me why you were banned on whatever other list you brandish like a flag of your own superiority.
If it is your wish to be rid of people like me on this forum, so be it. But save the rest of the FINE folks whom I've "met" on this list fromm your egomaniacal diatribes. You don't need such, Allen. You're able to stand on your own, rather than to belittle a distant rider for no good reason.
Your castigations of me and my riding are puerile and ignorant. You would not last for a day in my group, amigo.

[Dallara]

Wow, Will... You are pretty wild... And pretty paranoid, too.

First about the deer, and now you allege I "wish to be rid of people like (you) on this forum..."

Man, Will, I have searched and searched this thread and absolutely no where can I find where I expressed, or even implied, such a sentiment. First you see deer around every apex, and now you claim I am somehow trying to run you off. Where's that "honesty" of your's now?

Funny, too...

You are speaking only in that veil of "honesty" when you say "I don't agree that it's far more likely that I'll kill myself, Dallara... You don't know how many deadly things I've faced in life, on several continents... I am a motorcyclist. I am a very experienced one. I am my own mechanic. I have taken several track/riding courses... Riding is second nature to me..." and "I expect a truck to be around that blind corner, and that's why I've trained myself to stay to the right in my lane as far as is possible. I can skate past a truck in the road...", right? No chance you are being just a tad bit overconfident there in assuming you ride so well that you'll make an error and fall off, perhaps killing yourself, eh?

But yet I am being egotistical and arrogant when I say "And although I am quite positive I could dust you off and disappear over the horizon in front of you...", right? Wow, you don't know me, either, but you're dead sure I am being arrogant there... At least I never implied I was such a friggin' fantastic rider I could never fall off, as you did. Hell, even Valentino Rossi falls off, but then he's not as good as you, right Will?

You regal us in your humility with statements like "I have cleared my own forest and built my own ranch, solo... Thye (sic) buck stopped here." while hoping nobody would notice your not-the-least-bit subtle attempt at some sort of insult with "I wasn't lucky enough to inherit a ranch, or anything else...", but you're not being pretentiously assumptive in any way there, right?

And again, you don't know a thing about me but yet you can rattle off stuff like "You may be a powerful Texan in your area, and have sway with many powerful people, but it pales when you state that you can "dust off at will" a rideer whom you do not, and never will know..." I never said, or even implied, anything of the kind, but you let your "assumption muscle" override your keyboard flying fingers once again... Just as when you claim I somehow belittled you yet you fire off missives like "You would not last for a day in my group, amigo" and that I am "puerile and ignorant."

Hell, I say I can go faster than you and I am suddenly "puerile and ignorant" and filled with "V-10 verbosity" but you can say "Yep, I see man as more important than deer... Man has taken dominion over the earth, for good or bad. That's just the way it is... It's Mans' show, for better or for worse..." and you are the very picture of humility, eh?

Geez, I could go on, because you remind me so much of another fellow on another forum who such grandiose ideas of his riding skills, experience, mileage, and firm spot as one of the really good guys of the world... His name was Pat, and even with all that false sense of importance he wore his heart right out there on his sleeve, too.

You have absolutely no idea why I was banned on another forum, but it had nothing to do with any of this... But of course you know better, I'm sure. Oddly enough it all started over a couple of posts about a racing Honda and posting a couple of pictures of attractive women at an international motorcycle show. In a way I'm sorry if I somehow offended you because I happened to know a bit about Yamaha's Formula One efforts well before Toyota entered the fray... I guess you thought that was some of that "V-10 verbosity", right? But then again, it's just facts, so no, I changed my mind... I'm not the least bit sorry.

On closing, Will... Make sure you remember that nobody, and certainly not me, tried to get "rid" of you on this board. You're leaving all by yourself, and only because someone disagreed with you and hurt your feelings. To me that's kind of strange for somebody who has faced so "many deadly things I've faced in life, on several continents..." to get his feelings so hurt by someone "puerile and ignorant" that "would not last for a day in (your) group..." that he thinks someone is trying to get "rid" of him and runs away...

If you ever want to find out who could really dust who, Will, I'm game... In Texas or in California, or even someplace halfway in between like Arizona... And I'll be at Laguna Seca in July, and I will be staying at the "Monterey Plaza" hotel on Cannery Row in Monterey if you want to look me up for anything else.

Cheers!

Allan (Dallara - NACD)

[Wild Will]

quoth the Mighty Dallara:

If you ever want to find out who could really dust who, Will, I'm game... In Texas or in California, or even someplace halfway in between like Arizona... And I'll be at Laguna Seca in July, and I will be staying at the "Monterey Plaza" hotel on Cannery Row in Monterey if you want ot look me up for anything else.

[MidlifeMark]

You could sell tickets to this one!

[Dallara]

Wild Will said:



"quoth the Mighty Dallara"



Aw, Shucks, Will...

You don't have to call me "Mighty"... I'm not that good. At least I'm not so good that I'd ever claim I couldn't make a riding error and fall off, much less claim I had "dominion" over a damn thing.

But sometimes I can be just good enough... :037:

Oh well, you know where I'll be.

Cheers!

Allan (the unmighty duster Dallara - NACD)


p.s. - Tipstall, are you the guy with the ticket concession? :)