HP2S vs S1000RR - is it just me

[NakedRider]

The new 1000 has the world fairly worked up, and with good reason. It's bound to be one heck of a machine. I look at that bike and I look at my HP2 Sport and I'm not that sure I get all that excited at times. The HP2 Sport does have some things that the S1000RR will not have -

1) It's lighter - by about 10 lbs or 12 lbs ...shocker!
2) It's a twin - great for us twin lovers
3) It has more torque - barely, but it does
4) Single sided swingarm - you really love this if you change your own tires
5) BMW switchgear - Yes I like the old switches more
6) Telelever front end - I love the way my Sport *doesn't* dive while on the brakes
7) Braging rights to all that carbon fiber - SWEET
8) Machine work on triple crown and peg hangers
9) Drive shaft - hey, is it a BMW or not

I know the S1000RR will absolutely spank the Sport in outright HP and I'm sure handling as well but there's only so much of that I can really use. I think for a bike you are living with the Sport still stacks up quite well.

[jamming]

I'd love to have either :icon_redface:. Can't wait to see an RR up close. The HP2S is still my favorite sport bike hands down. Why? I'm a Boxer guy through and through. I'll have another Boxer even if its a ratty airhead someday.

[Deans BMW]

NR, interesting that you bring that up.

Turns out that Brial pariott is turning EXACTLY the same time on the honda 1000 cc liter bike as he was on the San Jose HP2S in Formula Pacific at Infineon. The difference he says is that the BMW is much easier to ride.

I would love to have a HP2S. Agree 100% to all of your points above.

[socalrob]

When they sell the HP2 Sport for $14K with ABS call me up & I will order one. In reality I think it is the HP2 Sport that is priced about right to other high end Euro sport bikes and the new S1000RR is being priced very aggressive by BMW.

[Sir Limpsalot]

Baiting the Japanese with their own fish is a risky enterprise and I worry that BMW are going to learn that the hard way, as have Triumph and others over the years.

The pricing of the RR makes it clear BMW are going away from their traditional customer base (older, wealthier, prepared to pay a premium for the badge) and going for the mass market. Well and good, except with the big four's "RR" bikes you are shooting at a moving target. A very fast moving target indeed.
Back in '06 or '07 when the project would have begun I don't doubt BMW bought examples of the current crop of RR's and put them under the microscope, just find out what they were shooting at. By the time the BMW RR hits the showrooms the '10 model year Japs will be available, and will be different animals.

It's like a game of poker "I'll see your fancy valve gear, and raise you a cross plane crankshaft.."

Even if the BMW is competitive in it's first model year (a big "if" actually) will BMW sell enough to finance the crippling year on year developement and upgrades demanded by this sector of the market? The Japs mark their global sales in millions of units and it's these sales that finance the R&D in keeping the loss leading "glamour" bikes competitive.
The first time a magazine runs a "shootout" test of all the top RR's and the Beemer fails to win then the game is, effectively, over.

Triumph, Ducati, Harley Davidson all have settled into a "niche", making bikes that are either unique to them or that they make better than the others. BMW had their niche too with the boxers, I just hope they know what they're getting into in the mass market. Time alone will tell.

Cheers,
Si.

[panthercity]

The new 1000 has the world fairly worked up, and with good reason. It's bound to be one heck of a machine. I look at that bike and I look at my HP2 Sport and I'm not that sure I get all that excited at times. The HP2 Sport does have some things that the S1000RR will not have -

1) It's lighter - by about 10 lbs or 12 lbs ...shocker! Yep!
2) It's a twin - great for us twin lovers Yep!
3) It has more torque - barely, but it does Torque gets you out of the corners!
4) Single sided swingarm - you really love this if you change your own tiresYep!
5) BMW switchgear - Yes I like the old switches more Yes! Yes! Yes! Neighbor on the first corner down from our place wonders why I honk every time I leave here on th eTriumph...
6) Telelever front end - I love the way my Sport *doesn't* dive while on the brakes Yep! (While not a "Sport", love it on my RS
7) Braging rights to all that carbon fiber - SWEET Well, good on ya...
8) Machine work on triple crown and peg hangers See #7!
9) Drive shaft - hey, is it a BMW or not Yep!

I know the S1000RR will absolutely spank the Sport in outright HP and I'm sure handling as well but there's only so much of that I can really use. I think for a bike you are living with the Sport still stacks up quite well.
As much as I admire the new RR, I'll be keeping my old Oilhead a while longer.

[jamming]

The first time a magazine runs a "shootout" test of all the top RR's and the Beemer fails to win then the game is, effectively, over.
.

Si, I respectfully disagree. The RR has already beat the Busa AND AFAIK BMW never signed off on the self imposed 186 MPH limit set by the "big 4".
So, you want the fastest street bike...buy the Beemer. A lot of folks will for that reason only.

I take the "shootouts" with a huge grain of salt. Advertising bucks figure in there. Granted BMW has a large chasm to leap with the younger motorcycling crowd but in their favor BMW is know for high performance street cars. I am in way an advertising guy but thats gotta help. I hope they do well because they haven't done so well in WSB racing.

You are right "time WILL tell".

[DarthRider]

Si, I respectfully disagree. The RR has already beat the Busa AND AFAIK BMW never signed off on the self imposed 186 MPH limit set by the "big 4".
So, you want the fastest street bike...buy the Beemer. A lot of folks will for that reason only.

I take the "shootouts" with a huge grain of salt. Advertising bucks figure in there. Granted BMW has a large chasm to leap with the younger motorcycling crowd but in their favor BMW is know for high performance street cars. I am in way an advertising guy but thats gotta help. I hope they do well because they haven't done so well in WSB racing.

You are right "time WILL tell".


I'm not much interested the debate, or discussion about BMW vs the Japs, or even the motorcycle itself, but a couple of points, both just opinions, albeit "semi-educated ones"...

Bet you a dollar BMW *does* self-limit top speed to 186, like the others. The contest now is just how quickly everyone can get to the 186 speed limiter. Beyond that is "Bonneville" stuff with the serious approach it requires.
I can't think of anything stupider (is that a word?) than *not* going along with that. They speed-limit thier cars, why wouldn't they their bikes? Can you imaging the bad press & government reaction if they did not?
I'm not usually in favor of much the government imposes, but major safety issues like seat-belts, airbags, mandatory rider/driver training, helmets, NO CELL PHONES WHILE DRIVING, and the 186 limit make great sense. If not to protect the bozos from themselves, at least to protect all of us from the cost burden of their actions.
186 on the street is dangerous enough...but that seemingly short gap from 186 to ~200 is frought with more, other perils.

The tired old presumption that the mainstream motorcycle press is "bought off" by their advertisers is about 20 years out of date. I worked very closely with many of them when I was at TR and did not find it that way at all. With some of the minor-league players, send the editor a leather jacket and you will get a nice word, if not a positive review...not so with the majors. For one thing, they have too much to lose by being "bought". They know everyone on the Internet feels that way and everyone is watching. They get many more props from good, objective reviews than glowing reports. You can still find some sure, but it's not common.
And guys like David Edwards of Cycle World actually do have some integrity.

Si, I think you nailed the whole thing right to the old barn door!

[jamming]

I never said " bought off" I just said "grain of salt". You have way more more experience in that area than I do. I'm just wondering if that has a hand in it.

IMHO..let the big dog run. Don't limit the motorcycle. Why? The big 4 has an established foothold on the high performance market and BMW is going to need every advantage they can get. The ensuing bad press and the government freak out will garner more attention. THEN you limit it.

Dave, I applaud BMW for jumping in. Its not my kind of motorcycle and never will be. I like it, but even if my ship comes in I'll never have one in the garage. A Triumph 675 would fit my "sporty" desires. :linzi: Hell, the more I find out about the new T-Bird the more I like it. :pot:.

[Sir Limpsalot]

At least we'll be getting the "full power" versions in the UK and NA. In many European countries the horse power of motorcyles is limited by law. In France, for instance, all bikes are subject to a 106hp limit. Get caught riding one that makes more and you face two years in prison! (The rule doesn't apply to tourists on their own machines, obviously).
Germany certainly had a 100hp limit untill very recently and might still have it for all I know.

Si.

[Gord]

Triumph, Ducati, Harley Davidson all have settled into a "niche", making bikes that are either unique to them or that they make better than the others. BMW had their niche too with the boxers, I just hope they know what they're getting into in the mass market. Time alone will tell.

Si - I can agree with you to a point on this. But I would argue that none of these manufacturers are satisified with being a master of a niche. Hence they continue to develop bikes across the spectrum in an attempt to broaden the "niche" markets they serve. The key is figuring out how to do that successfully - and that is the challenge that BMW clearly faces. Having spent a considerable amount of time and coinage to develop the RR and having established the product, they now need to be able to do technology turns in 2 years or less not only to keep pace with the Japanese who have mastered how to do this, but to keep the product ahead of the competition. Somehow I suspect the Germans can do this.

[Sir Limpsalot]

Having spent a considerable amount of time and coinage to develop the RR and having established the product, they now need to be able to do technology turns in 2 years or less not only to keep pace with the Japanese who have mastered how to do this, but to keep the product ahead of the competition. Somehow I suspect the Germans can do this.

Gord old boy, how exactly is the BMW "ahead of the competition"? and, come to that just how "established" is it?
All we know so far is that the bike exists and is due to go on sale at the end of this year. No one outside of the factory has ridden one and the only public viewing so far was at Brands Hatch last Sunday.

Of course BMW will sell some to the faithfull, but this bike is aimed at the mass market and will only be judged a success when BMW dealers are stuffed full of used Fireblades/GSX'R's/R1's that have been traded in against it. To do that it will have to be bloody good. No, in fact, to do that it will have to be fucking outstandingly brilliant.

We'll know by next spring, then the spring of 2011, then the spring of 2012..

Cheers,
Si.

[GPM]

I think Si makes a good point here. BMW has now entered the world of throw away bikes. Obviously the Japanese bikes are light years from the old days when they really were considered throw away, but with the way the new Super Bikes advance technologically year on year, many riders swap bikes ever two years and the bikes they are trading in tend to be pretty well thrashed.

Unlike traditional BMW customers who tend to ride their bikes for many years and many miles, the new customer they are courting are a fickle bunch who won't hesitate to move down the road next year if the new R1, GSXR or whatever one ups their current ride.

It will indeed be interesting to watch.

[DarthRider]

I agree with Si & Harry...the Squid Bike market is very fickle.
But for the last 15 years or so (when did the oilheads come out?) I see probably more BMW riders than don't, considering them a "throwaway motorcycle" and trading every 2 years or so. If the Roundel has "X" appeal, a new Roundel must have "X++" appeal? Maybe.
Nothing against the bikes, I think it's just what our "throwaway society"...does. I think BMW has encouraged & perpetuated it though, by coming out with "new improved" versions of existing models so often.
And that feeds another phenomenon..."perceived obsolescence", maybe even more insidious than the old "planned obsolescence" of years gone by...?
Look at all the hype surrounding the marginally better "New! Improved!" K13 vs the "old" K12. Gord had a great post on that recently.

[Wild Will]

We're missing the point here. BMW figured out their following will all be dead in a short time, and they wanted to corral a new demographic, a younger one.

They figured out via million dollar think tank committees that using their F1 experience and by using the configuration that obviously works for the racing leaders, they just might accomplish their goal.

The bike they built is astonishing for a BMW. I've seen the youth flock to the machine at Miller and Laguna Seca. I've read all I can that's in English about the bike. I've been in the room with the BMW geniuses as they explained themselves to Cycle World, Rider, MCN et al. BMW put on the best parties!

They're able to sell the bikes at roughly the same cost as the Japanese supersports. The bike is the real deal. It'll sell like "apfel latkes" and do what BMW wants it to do for future sales.

Their latest marketing plan requires each dealer to have a resident sales expert who's completely familiar with all the other superbikes, AND stunting.
This ain't your "old BMW".

The HP2Sport is/was (it'll probably soon be an anachronism like the wonderful sales flop, the R1200S) a superb mchine. By the way, Parriott's times on both the CBR 10000 RR AND the HP2S (last year) was 1:40.2 at Infineon. He said the BMW Telelever ruled, and that he could spank these Formula Pacific bikes IF there was sponsorship backing to race them now, but there ain't, alas.

The HP2 S is way too expensive to be anything other than an awesome rarity for the well-to-do, and a high maintenance one at that. Can you do your own valve adjustments? Does the machine require tear down at 30K?
Would you use it hard at a track day, chancing a hyper-expensive repair and a long wait for the limited stock of German carbon fiber? Or will it be treated like a Bimota, loved, regarded, ogled, wished-for, and ridden little?

The new BMW will change the BMW company forever. There's no going back now. They're back into racing, and they're doing just fine. They don't have the required GPS mapping for each track's corners for the wide-open-throttle operation of the traction control they all use now. It only takes 1/1000 of a second to win a date with Brunhilda!

Don't be looking for luggage and backrests for this new F1 BMW M Class superbike; that's not it's job. I've already chimed in that these hyper bikes have no place on the street, but we live in a free market where it's OK to overkill yourself on a crotch rocket. But, racing rules have little to do with pragmatism, and "a homologating we will go" (sing along with me...).

One thing is certain to me after a huge amount of reading, questioning, spending (to travel to see the beast), investigating, publishing articles, ad nauseum: the S1000RR is the real deal. It's the best of the breed. It has more safety systems (that are not failsafe due to those pesky laws of physics). It has a three year warranty. It'll have racing money on the table soon for local club races. It'll be HUGE. It already is. Look at ANY magazine this month, and you'll see millions in free adverts for BMW.

Those expensive think tanks have made a hit! I love it, but it doesn't belong in my garage; it has clip on bars and was built for one purpose - RACING ON A TRACK. I'm smitten for life with my flat twin (now with full titanium exhaust system). Gawd, it's great to be alive. F*ck deer!

[Sir Limpsalot]

But surely, Will, the point is that "the bike they built is astonishing for a BMW" (your words). To succeed it will need to be astonishing. Period.
Of course, if you could wangle me an invite to one of these "best parties" then I too may quaff the kool aid..

No, that was unkind and I'm sorry. As always you wrote an erudite piece and, as always, I enjoyed it.

In truth I am a completely impartial observer, although previous comments I've made might suggest otherwise, and have no axe to grind. At all.

Cheers,
Si.

[socalrob]

I see BMW trying to bring its MC division in line with its car division in terms of how it is perceived. The car division is currently thought of as making the best mass produced "drivers" cars period. The MC division is still seen as turning out over weight and underpowered old man machines. Almost like the MC division were owned by Mercedes. The R1000SS is going to go along way to bringing the MC division's reputation into line with the car's division. And like WW says, bring the younger set to the show rooms.

[Wild Will]

The maker of the M Class cars will succeed with this machine. It's that good, and it's affordable. Willy don't drink nobody's Kool Aid. Also, he doesn't want a supersport. BMW already have years and millions invested in this change of direction. They already make the best all around motorcycle for back roads and adventuring, and although I won't be getting the tattoo any time soon, nor do I care about most of the bikes they build, this one is intriguing. There are a lot of "firsts" showcased in this machine, and they've placed top 5 in WSB while still having fuel/TC control issues that were expected. The old BMW has been given it's lay-off notice by its new self, the new Euro SuperSport company. The one that's going to be offering M Class street legal racing bikes!

[Sir Limpsalot]

The R1000SS is going to go along way to bringing the MC division's reputation into line with the car's division. And like WW says, bring the younger set to the show rooms.

A freudian slip there Rob?

Si.

[SantaFeRider]

Didn't BMW already try to get rid of us, old curmudgeons with good taste in motorcycles?

Didn't they have to swallow their Teutonic pride and bring back the boxers?

Didn't we, loyal customers, have to pay a premium for the new boxers in order to cover for the K losses?

When I was born, this was happening with the world population:

The U.S. population reaches 132 million, Britain has 47 million, France 41, Germany with its annexed territories 110, the USSR with its annexed territories 181, Japan 105 (up from 89 million in 1936), Brazil 41, India 389, China close to 500 million.

Somewhat different from today's reality...

Yes, we old curmudgeons are completing the cycle of life, but others are constantly being produced in much larger quantities than we were ever produced, so, where is the diminishing market?

No, my brain on the edge of senility can't compete with million dollars think tanks; I barely know where I put my hard-earned cash and I say that if I want a Suzuki, I'll buy a Suzuki.

I also say that I'd rather see BMW Motorrad spending its R&D millions on developing a liquid cooled boxer so it can meet the upcoming emissions requirements and a reliable final drive so it can meet its users needs.

If I wouldn't be agnostic, I'd would affirm that God intended motorcycles to have only TWO cylinders and PULSE, not vibrate :)

Sir Limpsalot: :webers:

[Wild Will]

Having spent the past 4 days riding between 6 and 7,000 rpms in up to 113 degree temps (that's F, Si...), my air/oil cooled flat twin never even began to get hotter than mid point. Water cooled may be unnecessary, and I do not wish for a 125 horse GS, although that's what is coming in all probability.

BMW Motorrad don't think the Roundel means anything to their chosen demo; I asked them at Miller. BMW car also doesn't care what Motorrad do; separate companies they are. I also asked that while I was nursing my goblet of Kool Aid. I also choose to NOT understand the demo they're going after - I don't do many track days because it's far too inconvenient for me and I prefer lonely back roads. And tires that last longer than a two day track weekend.

A bike with clip on bars is a pain in the neck to an old cuss like me (hear me, Dean?), but that's exactly what a HUGE component of the bike market desire and buy. In my opinion, the new BMW is far better looking than any supersport made in Japan, and vies with the other two Euro bikes for the high tech award, but is cheaper than either Ducati or Aprilia, neither of which enjoy ABS. I still opine that this bike will sell very, very well. I don't want one, but if I was in my 30's and still invulnerable, I would.

[jef12s]

It's funny to me how much this discussion sounds like it could just as easily be coming from Harley riders. "What tha heck is this? Water cooled, that's just not right!" We want our nostalgia but we want engineering advances also. Can't have engineering advances without exploring new directions. I ended my bout with Harley because I wanted better technology and not be stuck in 1940.

[SantaFeRider]

I'm afraid that, after the next volley of emission standards, liquid cooling is not going to be a case of personal preferences.

[fganger]

“Fucking outstandingly brilliant,” err . . . should that be FOB? :)

Just an early morning thought: If one has a fast vehicle – no matter the type, make, etc. they are always being challenged by others of similar speed. In other words, if one has the fastest Kawasaki made, people like The Pit Tootsie (TPT) will be “pushing” them to see just how fast they really are.

“TPT” knows her 1250cc, liquid cooled four banger, which has been “breathed” on a bit, can walk away from just about anything. Now of course she has run up against Kawasaki’s that have not been breathed on at all, they have had ever so much more done to them. For example one hot Jap bike we ran into (so to speak) was running with twin turbos, and they were looking for someone to play with themselves. In other words it never ends. :pot:

So my thought is to have the machine considered by the field to be the “FOB Fastest Machine EVER MADE. Now one can easily find those who will take a bit of a chance to do a run with you on the street, if you just make the engine roar a bit and let them take off all by themselves, no one thinks they really beat you, they think you were playing with them. BTW, I have a number of real-life examples of this in action, just in case anyone might be interested.:webers:

“I ended my bout with Harley because I wanted better technology and not be stuck in 1940.” Excuse me lad, you are fairly close to the correct decade, but I think you are about 2 off. BTW the 2 was not years but decades. Yes, I mean the some of the Harley knowledge and technology was out about twenty years before that. Having spent time riding a ‘28 Harley gives me that perspective.

Friggen Frank

[SantaFeRider]

you guys may post all you want about the boredom of riding old technology, but don't you dare say anything to my wife!

:028:

[jef12s]

SantaFeRider, some things remain "timeless or ageless" - 29 or thereabouts and that's all I will say about that. Just ask my wife.

I know I was late by several decades on HD but I was trying to be nice!

[Wild Will]

But...HD never made a bike that can do what the big-jugged torquey GS can do on any surface you're attracted to. My preference? Tight, convoluted and lovely back roads sans traffic, with cow flop and downed trees and the errant country cop. Everybody's back yard is decidedly different, and few of us have twisties at the edge of their driveway, alas.

Water cooled may be superior, but with a double shot of catalysts in the pipes, my bike has well enough power already; too much power and your back road fantasies turn to merde, murder or just plain overkill.

I HAVE ENOUGH POWER! There, I've said it. If I lived where the roads disappear into the vastness, I'd have a Road King. But I live where there are roads named "Brain Ridge"; you get the picture? AND, my bike is easy to fettle at home, saving me $600 per 6K service. My Anakee tires are shot at 3,800 miles, but that's the price we pay for the privilege of shredding expensive compounds on rough surfaces. I wouldn't know what to do with 125 horses and the next second gear corner coming at me murderously quick, threateningly imminent; at my age I'm slowing down and taking my time hovering between 6 and 7K rpm, where the old school (8 valve twin-old school? I think not!) Messerschlitz road beast purrs like a rabid panzer, I mean panther. Gott im himmel!

Here I am, the next wave of Luddite riding not by wire, but on a beefed up flat twin that is cooled by a hot breeze and has valves as easy to adjust as my '59 Beetle! And, there is noting better on 2 wheels on a back road. Did I mention the brakes? The magical Telelever? When my final drive takes a crapola, I'll fix the bastard and keep on riding low tech until the sun goes down and the six foot wingspan bats come for me...

[panthercity]

Will sorta summed up why the FJR1300 left after only 26k miles and I took the R1100RS outta mothballs.

[SantaFeRider]

Will sorta summed up why the FJR1300 left after only 26k miles and I took the R1100RS outta mothballs.

so, you let go of the FJR just before its first valve adjustment was due?:)

[Sir Limpsalot]

so, you let go of the FJR just before its first valve adjustment was due?:)

:eusa_clap::eusa_clap::eusa_clap:

Si.

[panthercity]

so, you let go of the FJR just before its first valve adjustment was due?:)
Top end wasn't rattlin' so I figure it was good to go...

:linzi: