Supermoto Technique

[Bones]

My question is about Supermoto riding.

My perspective is as someone who has hacked around on dirt bikes, but reliably able to slide both front and back and do some rear wheel steering, and as someone who has spent much more time on the track on 600 cc race bikes, and then a lot of street riding. Why I seemed quite comfortable going 135-145 mph on my R6 on a track but feel like my skin is crawling just watching Supermoto riding is a bit perplexing to me. I just see it as an endeavor designed to throw body parts off the bike at any moment.

So here is what I am having a hard time grasping: why are the supermoto guys able to find the fastest way around the track while going for maximized lean angle, backing it in to fast turns, etc, rather than what road racers do on tarmac (minimize lean angle and spin and slide the tire the absolute least they can)? Clearly, I am missing something.

Don't get me wrong. I think it is fantastic to watch, and riding around on one of those things is a hoot, but I simply cannot fathom pushing one to its limit. Perhaps it is my age and REAL STRONG desire NOT to high side, ever.

Explain away.

Jeff

[jamming]

In my race days, we had a motto...If ya ain't crashing ya ain't riding hard enough....terrible motto...now...that's why I have screws in my shoulder half a right patella, 8 concussions, 4 knee surgereys, and other numerous injurys that bother me when the weather changes.
Seriously though Jeff, these guys are good, I try to be 10% as good as these guys when I'm riding in the dirt, and the older I get, the better I was:) . Its my dirt riding that has saved my bacon more than once. I am comfortable when the rear slides, hell, I love riding in the rain and playing flat tracker...with no traffic around. I believe that if you want to be a good street rider, play in the dirt. My oldest son just turned 15. In 9 months he's taking the BRC. Hope Bob's around to do it.
Roger

[DJ Down Under]

Bones you answered your question when you said...

Perhaps it is my age and REAL STRONG desire NOT to high side, ever.

So...IMO...tipping the bike way over like that is to help prevent the nasty high-side....plus...it's the way you ride dirt...most of these guys come from dirt.

DJ

[Bones]

Thanks guys.
I agree, for sure, that getting experience sliding both front and back end (especially simultaneously) in the dirt is both therapeutic and instructive.

More lean angle will get the bike to turn in, but subtracts traction, increasing sliding. I don't know about that decreasing the liklihood of high siding, because the high side is usually caused when the rear hooks back up. So these guys are finding that narrow zone between having it break free enough to slide and keep enough hook up to drive forward. Then, of course, they do have to get the bike upright again, and that is where I just see Slingshotting of the rider.

In motocross, rear wheel steering and power sliding is useful both to quickly turn the bike in real tight corners where they blast in, snap it around and shoot out. Plus, the bike then takes up more room in the corner which makes for problems with the following rider.

But usually on tarmac (road racers) backing a bike in looks cool, but is clearly not the fastest way around the track.

Maybe one of our roadracing and dirt racing members will know.



That zone between slide and grip is narrower on tarmac.

Jamming....agreed about the riding dirt bikes with one's son. I really enjoy it. I am even considering trading my KDX220R for a 125four stroker this season. It is much less capable, but I might have more fun on a smaller bike, pushing it harder and thrashing it a bit.....but that is another thread.


Jeff

[supermotoC]

In hi speed sweepers, there is no quicker way through the corner than just to heel it over and wick it open at the apex - motoGP style. In slower, tighter corners, when SM Joe goes from 80mph to nearly stopped, they sit up, drop it down 2/3/4 gears, and dump the clutch (with a slipper clutch). This backing in technique sets them up for a quick exit, effectively squaring off the turn, so that by the time they reach the apex, they are already headed for the next turn. On dirt, you just wait 'til the last second, slam/turn/square off in the berm, and explode towrds the next turn (hopefully on the smoothest part of the track). Watch the motoGP guys come into very tight corners, and they do most of the SM thing - sit up, clamp on the brakes, and set up for the apex. Because they are so brutal on the tires, they keep the sliding to a minimum.
I 've figured out how to do this SM cornering thing (on the street!), and it is amazing how fast you can come into a corner this way. Also, w/o a slipper clutch, you must carefully feather the clutch (because you've dropped from 5th to 2nd in one move), and this allows the back wheel to spin, but at probably 20% of ther actual bike speed. Locking up the wheel - bad, asking for a high side. I read this technique, tried it on a dirt road to get the feel, and then went to a go-kart track (a 2nd-4th gear BLAST) to sort it out. Rough pavement, traffic, and a heavy bike will make this drill a masochistic exercise.
Watch the EuroSM guys, and in sweeper turns, they hang the knee and roll around, just like you & me (only a little faster). On the U-turns and really slow ones, they get to show off.

[Bones]

Super,
Got it. Makes sense. And for the record, I won't be trying this on the street. Thanks.

Jeff

[Arby]

Bones

That was a good question.

Roger

We used to have a motto too, "skin will mend but the parts cost money". Now I say "I don't care what it costs, just don't hurt me".

Collyer

That was a great answer,IMHO.

I believe that an examination of the front and rear tires of the bikes parked near places like the TWO in No Ga or Deal's gap or The Rock Store (or where ever)would show that most of us use(to some degree) one or the other of the styles that Collyer has described.

Most of us that learned to go fast(or at least try to in my case)by racing m/x will have flat spots or scalloped out front tires from heavy front braking, and wide chicken strips. While on the rear the tires will be feathered out all the way to the edges.
That is to say, we tend to dive in, scrub off speed, set the bike up for the turn, depending on road conditions, make the turn as tight and quick as we can, then we're on the gas as hard as we dare,not exactly steering with the rear wheel, but pushing it a lot harder than the front,driving towards the next turn.
Almost right out of the old Gary Bailey m/x school book.

While those who haven't done too much m/x or who learned to go fast via flat tracking or road racing, and are comfortable carrying high speeds thru turns will almost always NOT have scalloped front tires, but will have feathered their front tires right to the edge. Likewise,the rear will look pretty much like the front.

I'm not saying that it's even noticeable(sp?)in riding stlye or anything. It's certainly not scientific, just my observations from hanging around fast guys, and listening to them talk about how they learned to ride.

Course, sounds like Roger and Collyer figured out how to do both.

Bob

[jamming]

I don't know Bob, if I've figured out anything. I'm an old MX er. I've never really raced flattrack, but I wrenched some HD flatrackers for some local boys and used to check out the bikes during practice times.
Wrenched some Unlimited Karts for awhile, those were a hoot.
I tend to use alot of styles when I ride. I know I carry alot of speed sometimes into corners, square it off and accelerate away. I took a Reg Pridmore class a number of years ago. Man, that dude has forgot more about riding than I'll ever know, or use. On my ST, I tend to ride way too fast. Not agressive, but fast. I know the brakes will haul you down. I pick the times, not in traffic..etc..etc.
On the bike, in traffic, its about survival. I practice evasive manuvers, emergency braking, all the time! I know I'm not near as fast in the twisties as I used to be, no practice. The roads here are really straight. So I seek them out, and have some fun when I can.
For me, its about fun, and transportation.
Roger

[supermotoC]

Just to set the record straight, the SM style of backing it in is only useful when going from hi speed to very lo speed corners. Typical (fast or normal speeds) street riding will never be at the pace where you are backing it in, unless you have some cones set up at the local parking lot. Rough pavement, cars, yellow lines, and unseen obstacles make this kind of riding spectacularly unsafe on anyhting but a closed course. It's frightening how quickly you can go from 70 to a crawl with this style of riding, mainly, because you're sideways.

http://img129.imagevenue.com/loc10/th_29295_nice_slide.jpg (http://img129.imagevenue.com/img.php?loc=loc10&image=29295_nice_slide.jpg)

[Arby]

Thanks for the response.

I tried to say that we TEND to ride one way or the other , to some degree, I think I said ,and that road conditions contribute as well. And by mentioning the m/c hangouts that I did, I thought I was idenifying tight twisty roads that sport bikers like to play on.

I totally agree that nothing is absolute. And whatever allows you to come home safe and sound, without pissing off too many people, is what we all should aim for.

How 'bout it Bones? If you had to describe your fast road work, in areas with tight twisty roads, how would you describe your riding style? How about your tires? What would they look like?

Hope I didn't push this thread too far off track?

Bob

[DarthRider]

Hoochie Mama!
http://r1150r.smugmug.com/photos/43274764-L.jpg


Friend Collyers on his way home from work. Look where his body is on the bike. Look at what the bike is...must be a real handful!
http://r1150r.smugmug.com/photos/43274767-L.jpg

Do NOT try this at home!
http://r1150r.smugmug.com/photos/43274762-L.jpg

In discussing and understanding the nuances of Super Motard vs road racing or other forms of pavement riding, don't overlook the importance of the handlebars...real, by God manly handlebars!
You don't see any of these things with clip-ons.
Even in the very mild forms of street SM "type" riding, the handlebars make it do-able...it's so much easier to "catch" the bike with handlebars than it is with clip-ons, either as a control technique or to save it from disaster.
Little intentional rear-end slides are much easier, as is controlling a head-shake. My sig line below is only half in jest!

Dave


Dave

[supermotoC]

Darth - the guy on the 2 stroke (Honda?) is about to learn the friction coefficient of leather/tarmac! Look at his inside foot! He is definitely entering the corner, so maybe if he hits the gas quick enough....

[DarthRider]

Yeah, I found out the hard way why in so many pics of SM riders in corners they have their inside foot way out by the front axle, like a MX racer.
Otherwise you can fold that foot up under the footpeg or frame...or I guess even the rear tire!

Dave

[Dallara]

Man, put me down for agreeing literally 100% with everything Jamming (Roger) said.

Dirt riding teaches you more about riding a motorcycle than anything else will, whether your end riding will be on the pavement or not. Kenny Roberts didn't keep all those Honda XR-100's (while he was contracted to Yamaha) around his place for practicing and for training riders wiht no good reason.

You can actually *back it in* going into any corner if your approach speed is higher enough relative to the apex speed or the turn... It's just that who in theri right mind would want to be doing that on the street what with cars, trucks, buses, etc. lurking around every bend and with Armco barriers, barbed wire fences, ditches, culverts, etc. right off the edge of the pavement. Sure, it's fun to do on the street at relatively low speeds, but dicking around with that kind of super-aggressive corner entry at over 100 MPH has an entirely different set of consequences...

Me, I know I am not near as fast as I was when I was racing all the time... and was in better physical shape, had better eyes, and had infinitely more time to practice, practice, practice. Add to that the fact that I simply will NOT ride faster than about 85% on public roadways and you have somebody who is more concerned about riding clean, precise, and safely within what I perceive the conditions of the roadway are at the time. Don't get me wrong... I still like to go fast, but has often been said, the street is NOT a racetrack (dirt or paved), and only a fool rides on the street like it is one.

Just my two pesos... YMMV... a lot.

Cheers!

Allan (Dallara - NACD)

[Bones]

Arby,
In answer to your question, I would have to say that my street riding style has evolved over time towards more of what I would call "spirited caution." That is to say that as my track skills got better, my street riding became more sedate. I think that was as a result of my better understanding what I was really doing and also getting my go fast yah yahs out on the track.

Trail braking started to become more hardwired and second nature for me, and on the track (especially on tracks that I really knew well) I was pretty well able to trail right to the apex and then be on the throttle as an almost seamless flow, carrying as much corner speed as my tires would allow. When converting back to the street, clearly, I will carry way less corner speed than traction would allow and I tend to at least trail to at least the point at which I can see through the turn exit. It may not be the fastest way around on the road, but that sure is not what the road is for , at least not anymore, not for me. And on the street, for me, all the fun is in torque application driving out of turns, anyway. I also stay well on my side of the center line at all times.

I still to not have any problem keeping up with guys I ride with, and if they do decide to get away, I guess I will just meet them at the next traffic stop or restaurant or whatever. Perhaps my mortality is becoming more reality. Plus, I REALLY want to be able to ride tomorrow, too. The 85% rule Dallara mentioned certainly applies. Obviously, Rossi's 85% and mine will differ....but you know, on the street with all those other variables, maybe not so much.

Jeff

[supermotoC]

Having grown up (chronologically, mind you) riding trials, then enduros, then MX, and finally RR, I tend to agree w/ Allan on all said. Riding in the dirt is the most fun, most forgiving (of mistakes), and most educational in riding skill(s) and technique(s). If I hadn't learned to slide like a madman ridng in snow & dirt (and learning how/why I'd fall), I wouldn't have nearly the confidence with which to try the stuff I actaully pull off - regularly. Sensible? Probably not. Bravery & foolhardy are but a blink from eachother, many times overlapping.
As a rider, I am constantly redefining myself, and seem to be waffling towards being more of an "adventure" rider, looking not for the destination, but the fun of the ride that inevitably gets me there (somewhere). The SM thing is very cool to watch, and even attempt on a closed go-kart track, but basically as specialized as MX or RR. Deano & Darth's plan for a little Border Tour might be a very cool thing to do.

Maybe this would do.

http://www.timcamerondesign.com.au/TCDGraphics/camel2.jpg

[supermotoC]

http://home.scarlet.be/~chrisboo/s1.JPG

http://home.scarlet.be/~chrisboo/s2b.jpg

http://home.scarlet.be/~chrisboo/s3.JPG

[Arby]

Bones

Thanks for the description of your riding style for hard street riding. Your answer was just what I thought it would be.

I'd like to use that as an example of what I was trying to say earlier.

In your second paragraph, you talk of trail braking becoming "hard wired and second nature".
That was not because you saw someone do it once, or because you did it once or twice at a track school. but rather, because you did it over and over and over.

You got to the point where you were comfortable loading up that front wheel(IE: no chicken strips)and then loading it up some more with trail braking, right up to the edge of traction if neccessary, to maintain your corner speed, and then make that "seamless application of power"(to the rear wheel).

Now it's second nature to you. I'm confident that if you ever inadvertintly(sp?) get in over your head in some tight turn, you are not going to stand the bike up and try to slow it down, and then make the turn. In stead you'll , most successfully ,I'm sure, trail brake the crap outta that bike, right up to the point of being on the sidewall, make the turn at a higher speed than seemingly possible and pull on thru.

As you said, now you're a nice conservative rider, just out for a Sunday ride.

But I maintain that your training that "hard wired" you, still dictates your riding style, just at a slower pace.

And I would bet that your tire wear pattern reflects that style.

I included flat trackers in with road racers on my earlier post because they seem to be the training ground for our top road racers.

Likewise, I included SM in with m/x riders, because that seems to be where all the top SM guys come from.

One little quick story from my own experience.(which I know doesn't count for much)

A few years ago, Buell(BRAG) put on a tour of California. I got hooked up with this ex flat tracker (who is general manager of a Harley dealership in Mid Calif). He was quick and smooth. We were both on Buell S3s.

I"m not even sure where we were now, but I was following him on this tight twisty east coast type road. I had been following his lines and trying to adopt his flowing style. Suddenly I realized he was sharply leaning into this tight little turn that I knew I couldn't make. I went into survival mode, Entered that turn straight up, hard on both brakes, down shifted a couple gears(I think it was two)clutchless, counter steered as hard as I could, got on the gas and rolled safely thru that turn.

I realized later that I had gone into motocross mode, instinctively. It's what I was hard wired for, and it was second nature. Even my shifting was second nature, because if you're thinking, you NEVER shift an old sportster transmission without using the clutch. OTOH, m/xers never use a clutch to shift. Yes, I paid the price for those clutchless shifts. After I got back to Florida, it took a couple of new gears and two new shifting forks to repair it.

So as an old m/xer, I could try something new, have someone give me a few good lessons, but when push comes to shove, I'm gonna go back to what I'm hard wired to do. And I think that my tire wear pattern will reflect my style(or lack of)
Unless of course, I have enough training to hard wire me differently. But I raced m/x for 10 years. How much training does it take to over come that.

I used me and Bones as opposite examples, but I think it generaly applies accross the board.

Of course, the best thing to do, is not ride over your head. Ride your own pace, not someone else's.


Uh,do I need to mention Supermoto to keep this on thread?

I guess what got me on this track was Bones telling us that he rides dirt and knows how to slide both front and rear on his dirt bike, but couldn't imagine how to combine his dirt and asphalt experience into S/M type riding.

It seems the S/M more closely resembles that which he has the lesser experience with. Because he apparently got so comforable at R/R, that's why the S/M seems so foreign, although I'm sure it's no more dangerous or difficult than riding around at 140 mph on a 600 Yamaha.


Bob

[supermotoC]

So, what you're really saying is.... riding a Yamaha is dangerous?

:104:

[Bones]

Arby,
All well put. An indeed, the trail braking "thing" came neither quickly or easily. But I remember the actual day when it really did come together like it was supposed to. It was after a LOT of laps and a LOT of trial and instruction.

The comment about not riding over one's head is certainly important. Interestingly enough, when I crashed last October I wasn't actually riding over my head in terms of technique.....yet a crash can still occur, as I so nicely demonstrated. It illustrates the "other" part of riding that is beyond our control.

That "other" part is what is out there getting in the way of good technique. Things like traffic, surprise road conditions, magical appearance of farm and forest animals mid turn, etc. On the track, it was the magical appearance of an MV Agusta F4 just beyond the apex of a turn going WAY the hell too slow. Obviously, it was my misjudgement about his behavior in several previous turns that had me running up on him, but it wasn't going too hot into a turn, grabbing too much brake, spinning up the rear, etc. that cause most track day crashes I have seen.

But what I learned that day is that a similar thing can be translated to the street: magical appearance of things that shouldn't be there that you can't do much about. THAT is what further calmed my outlook (but apparently, not yet my speedometer) on the street. It seems I still like to ride with spirit, but I do find that I am much, much more selective about where that spirit will be exercised. I don't mess with blind curves on the street anymore. I take them in a way that I can stop in my own lane pretty quickly if I have to.

Your comments re dirt riding go hand in hand with one of my bike ideas of late: getting a LESS capable dirt bike so I can spend MORE time pushing it and me to the limit, more safely. I am seriously thinking about trading my KDX220R for a 125 4 stroker. I think I could more readily slide the hell out of it and have fun doing so. Since I will never MX race or even do Hare Scrambles in reality, I think this would enhance my overall skill development.

And you are right about translating dirt skills to tarmac on heavier and more powerful bikes: it is intimidating if your primary background is road racing format.

Ahhh, it is all fun.

Jeff

[supermotoC]

too bad these don't make it to the US -

http://www.yamaha-motor-europe.com/products/motorcycles/125cc/index.jsp

[DarthRider]

Collyers -

What is that beautiful Tim Cameron Design bike you posted on page 1?
Man, I'd sleep with that thing!

Dave

[supermotoC]

I'm currently sleeping with it - wait your turn!!

here it is http://www.timcamerondesign.com.au/spider.htm

check out the BMW retro concept - not bad, even for an Aussie.

[DJ Down Under]

Cool...:icon_mrgreen:

DJ

http://www.timcamerondesign.com.au/TCDGraphics/RETROBM.JPG

[DJ Down Under]

Another good one...I like the exhaust.

http://www.timcamerondesign.com.au/TCDGraphics/THOMO2-1.jpg

It's a shame they don't have more pics of the 'Dreambike'...I saw it in an Aussie mag not long ago...wow!..and it looks like it's going to be built.


STOP PRESS!!!!!
A builder for the Dreambike has now been found!

Mr Christian Travert, world famous designer of the awesome
Y2K jetbike as featured in the motion picture 'Torque'
has been officially signed up to make 'the dream come true'!!!

Work on the prototype Dreambike has already commenced
and plans for full scale production have been given the green light.

As work continues on the prototype, I will keep visitors up to date
on progress and hopefully post pics of the ongoing build.

For any further details regarding the Dreambike,
contact Christian directly at: traverts@bellsouth.net



DJ

[geechie]

Hey Arby,

Man are you a welcome addition here. For the record, you'll find this bunch not very anal about thread digressions... life is like that sometimes. I envy all of you who have raced MC's, and I greatly appreciate the insights and advice each you brings along. It all helps make me a better rider.

I've come to charactarize my riding style as assertive and expeditious. When the new R1200R gets here, there will be track days in my future. Roebling (which I driven in E and F class Porsches) is right down the road and I think a trip or two to Jennings may also be in order.

Thanks again.

George

[Bones]

"Assertive and Expeditious"

I love that. I am stealing that, if you don't mind.

Jeff

[DarthRider]

Man, that bronze-colored HD powered bike is tits!
But...unless "The" Motor Company has built a 2/3 scale motor that would be one TALL mo-fo!

Dave

[geechie]

"Assertive and Expeditious"

I love that. I am stealing that, if you don't mind.


Use it at your pleasure and in good health.

You may find however, that the wife won't completely buy it.

George