Harry Truman and the Atomic Bomb

[JCsman]

Many of you know that Dave's son Bill is producing a video on the B-29's of WWII.

I say a video of the Daily Show with Jon Stewart a few days ago. In response to a surprisingly, and happily, aggressive guest he opined that Harry Truman was a war criminal*. And, I was stunned to hear, the audiance wqas wildly favorable to thoiws remark. According to Mr. Stewart we should have dropped an atomic bomb over the ocean as a demonstration to Japan before we hit a city.

This revisionist history is sickening to me. But I hear it a lot. And it undermines (at the least) the heroic effort of men like Dave's father.

Then I ran into this:

http://www.pjtv.com/video/Afterburner_/Jon_Stewart%2C_War_Criminals_%26_The_True_Story_of _the_Atomic_Bombs/1808/

I thought it worthwhile even though it starts with a commercial and lasts over 15 minutes.

YMMV


* He walked back from that assertion in a later show in a weak kneed "apology".

[Donson]

Bill,thanks so much for that. As I was watching it,I reached over and pulled down a book that had belonged to My Dad.As a survivor of Iwo Jima,He had a real interest in the upcoming invasion of Mainland Japan.The book is Enola Gay,written by Gordon Thomas and Max Morgan Witts.Dad read it in 1977,then wrote some notes inside the front cover.He wrote down a list of pages to underscore some of the reasons The Bomb HAD to be used."the highlighted information on above pages proves why the bomb had to be used to save lives-both American and Japanese,and especially Japanese civilians,who would have died by the millions if the invasion had been necessary.Side Note:My Unit,Third Marines,was scheduled to lead the Olympic Invasion Force,so I am probably one of those whose life was saved" signed Stan B. Collins,November ,1977. I probably would never have been born,nor Dangerous Dave,whose Dad was right there,nor Dean-o,I wonder how many of Us here at the Cafe,would never even have been here if not for that conclusion to that bloody War?

[Donson]

Note to self: Add Jon Stewart to the List Of Bleedin Hearts Id Like To Punch In The Nose....:)

[DarthRider]

Thanks Bill & Don...not only for your "right on" comments, but for the careful, measured tone you used.
Being the son of a B-29er, and son Bill being the grandson of one, and author of the 444th BG website and other WWII historical Pacific Air War material, we have run into revisionist and even worse, apologist comments for a long, long time. Experience in dealing with those types has shown it's usually best to grit one's teeth and refrain for the red-faced, cursing, spittle slinging responses we would like and enjoy giving. A wise old boss used to remind us to not "harden the target" when dealing with adversaries.

The rebuttal vid from PJTV was very much "right on" and historically accurate, so far as I could tell. But there was more...much, much more to the "rightness" of the A-Bomb decision. Recently declassified materials have brought much to light.

Bill, I am sending your thread to son Bill for his comments. I think he has some of those materials on-line that might be of interest.

As a footnote, Bill has been contacted by a number of Chinese and Japanese people in regard to his work. Most was favorable, some along the lines of Jon Stewart the Idiot's remarks.
A serious Chinese scholar was writing a historical book about China, Japan, WWII and all that preceded it. Bill was able to help his efforts significantly, received full attribution in the (very large, leather & gold leaf!) book and an invitation to a formal reception at the Chinese Consulate office in Houston, which he and Julie attended. The party was primarily to honor surving American WWII vets. I'm sure Bill was the youngest and longest haired guest there! One of the themes of the book concerned the gratitude of the Chinese people to the American and other Allies for ending the War before untold more millions of Chinese were killed. That element is often overlooked.

The most interesting statistic (to me) that Bill uncovered in all this is that more people in WWII and related events were killed by Japanese swords than A-Bombs. This sounds like a "justification for revenge" argument, but it is not. Just a fact that helps keep this in perspective.

A footnote: Donson Don's Dad Stan, a then 18-year old U.S.Marine and his comrades' ordeal at Iwo Jima without any doubt saved untold American lives for many reasons. One of which was enabling the use of the captured Japanese airfield that allowed crippled or low-fuel B-29s to land rather than crash into the sea, as they had been doing previously. Possibly more important was silencing the radio outpost on Iwo that warned the Japanese air forces that B-29s were "on the way" to missions over the Japanese mainland and home islands.
Thank you, young Stan Collins and your comrades for saving the lives of young C.M. Howe and/or his comrades during the various Hells in the Pacific in 1945.

I'll let you guys know what son Bill has to say...if it can be legally repeated!

[NoRRmad]

Just for the record, Jon Stewart's apology:

The other night we had on Cliff May. He was on, we were discussing torture, back and forth, very spirited discussion, very enjoyable. And I may have mentioned during the discussion we were having that Harry Truman was a war criminal. And right after saying it, I thought to myself that was dumb. And it was dumb. Stupid in fact. So I shouldn't have said that, and I did. So I say right now, no, I don't believe that to be the case. The atomic bomb, a very complicated decision in the context of a horrific war, and I walk that back because it was in my estimation a stupid thing to say.Sufficient? Maybe not. But it's rare that a talk-show host sets aside airtime to call himself "stupid..."

[JCsman]

Yeah, NoRRmad, I've seen that. In fact, I made brief note of his backing away.

I described the apology as weak kneed. For example, "I may have mentioned..."... sheesh.

And, after watching the video of it again, I still describe it as such. Played for humor, no explanation of why he was a wrong...except for the, rather cryptic, it's "complicated". The transcript reads better than the video looks.

If he apologized because of viewer push-back, good! That would be a relief.

[Donson]

He has a long history of arrogant,leftish,un-American comments.I would still like to punch Him in the nose (and Im not going to "walk that back").:028:

[DarthRider]

President Truman is dead. Not so a remaining few of those who gave, relayed & followed orders during that bad time.
If Stewart the Idiot wants to score any apology points with me, he would need to be a lot more sincere and address the insult he so easily & callously hurled at the Commander-in-Chief and everyone else involved.
Some of whom no doubt and unfortunately must have heard the insult and got mad as hell.
Which they do not deserve.
And it's not complicated at all.
"For the record"...

[Wild Will]

We are losing our American perspective. Mostly because of revisionist history, and the placating of minority voters by politicos.

Bottom line is that my Dad, who's having a military ceremony at Arlington next month (cremated, he was), told me he was certain we'd have lost a whole lotta men had we attacked Japan. The soldiers were also of one mind that we should have thrown Stalin out of Germany; Patton wanted to do it. He was over ridden by politicos.

The Japanese were brutal warriors. They asked for what they got. If not for the war, the dropping of the bomb, and MacArthur's rebuilding of the country, they'd likely still be testing katanas on the necks of foreigners.

We were certainly kinder to Germany and Japan than they'd have been to us. A strong military is still very much needed as we face Iran, North Korea, Islamic terrorists (OK - ALL terrorists) and that bunch of fun-loving robed Taliban who've just probably inherited those pesky Pakistani nuclear missiles; does anybody know the situation with the Pakistani missiles?

If Col. Tibbets was OK with what he did, so am I. My 60's poly sci professor told us "show me a man under 30 who's not a liberal, and I'll show you a man with no heart; but show me a man over 30 who's not a conservative and I'll show you a man with no head".

We all hated him, but he was right. Rash Limburger is still an a*shole, though.

[Donson]

The estimates of American dead in the planned invasion of the Japanese mainland was One Million dead American Soldiers.

[Deans BMW]

Sad that so many of our young think that Jon Stewarts show is news but with a hint of humor.

[NoRRmad]

...Similarly, one million dead Japanese. The bomb saved lives on both sides, and we didn't have an extra one to throw away on a demonstration blast to try to impress Japanese generals who believed that to die for their country was a high honor being offered their people.

But this violent hatred of people who don't revere the things we do is shameful. Jon Stewart included. In my humble opinion.

(But enough politics.)

[Donson]

I dont hate Jon Stewart,I hate His smug,arrogant know it all-ism.Is that a word?If it werent for the very people He loves to dis,He wouldnt even have the right to open His Big Mouth. In My humble opinion.

[Donson]

+1 what Dean said......

[Wild Will]

...Similarly, one million dead Japanese. The bomb saved lives on both sides, and we didn't have an extra one to throw away on a demonstration blast to try to impress Japanese generals who believed that to die for their country was a high honor being offered their people.

But this violent hatred of people who don't revere the things we do is shameful. Jon Stewart included. In my humble opinion.

(But enough politics.)

He apologized the next night on his show, to his credit. Think he was jumped on by this public sucking of his wing tips? Uh, yeah!

[DarthRider]

But this violent hatred of people who don't revere the things we do is shameful. Jon Stewart included. In my humble opinion.

(But enough politics.)


NoRRmad -
You frequently "call bullshit" when things get political or off-balance, and I always recognize and appreciate it when you do.
But you are out of line on this one.
It is not about "hatred of people who do don't revere the things we do..."
It is not politics we are talking about, it is history and facts. Those are the things being revered...not opinions, beliefs or differing politics. Those and the gallant people who were there, made those decisions and did those things.
And it is not a freedom of speech issue, not at all. Mr. Stewart is certainly free to say what he pleases. You are certainly free to interpret that, and other's reactions to it as you like.
And I am free to "call bullshit".

[NoRRmad]

Yeah, I got a little grossed out by Dean's lip-smacking description of "real" torture, with all the racist epithets, and thought I couldn't let that go unanswered.

Woulda been nice if this had remained a discussion of history.

Won't happen again, (unless it happens again.) :linzi:

Later: Heh. I just leafed back through this thread and I see that the posting that kicked me off is gone. Never Mind.

[Griffon]

As some of you know, my grandfather also served on Iwo. He too, was scheduled to fight in the invasion of the mainland. As well, he was in the rotation for the first wave. There is not a day that goes by that I don't marvel that my father is here, much less me.

I've spent a great deal of time thinking about the decision to use the atomic bomb. The loss of life was so staggering. Yet I have come to see no other viable solution to the problem. Given the facts of the time, it was reasonable for the Allies to expect every man woman and child to die fighting for Japan. I have to believe that many, many more lives would have been lost.

As for the news, I think it's a little foolish to trust one source, particularly one who is upfront about his satire. It's like learning about science by watching Stark Trek. The best we can do is check news markets from around the world to get an idea of the truth. Caveat emptor.

[DarthRider]

Yeah, I got a little grossed out by Dean's lip-smacking description of "real" torture, with all the racist epithets, and thought I couldn't let that go unanswered.

Woulda been nice if this had remained a discussion of history.

Won't happen again, (unless it happens again.) :linzi:

Later: Heh. I just leafed back through this thread and I see that the posting that kicked me off is gone. Never Mind.



Thanks NoRRmad, you and I are straight!
But, damn...what is your first name? I hate calling people by our mostly goofy "stage names" here.
If you told me that before, I forgot & apologize...damn CRS!

[DarthRider]

I heard back from son Bill on this:


Oh, Boy. I have MUCH to say on the subject! Feel free to share with anyone interested.

The rebuttal video posted was 100% correct (except that the B-29 was more expensive than the A-Bombs by 1/3).

I'm reading, actually re-reading "Mission With LeMay". Great autobiography by the way. I very highly recommend it. I thought I knew who Curtis LeMay was and I was WAY off... But I digress.

Anyway, LeMay says in his book (paraphrased, NOT direct quotes):

I didn't know about Manhattan until I was on Guam commanding the XXI BC. At that time, we considered the A-Bomb as just another weapon to be deployed. Even after I saw the Trinity films. There was no doubt we were going to use it unless the Japanese surrendered before the bomb was ready. The people who scream of the immorality of the Atomic Bomb must think it is better to burn to death in a horrible fire raid by 500 of our B-29s. Or that killing someone with a bow & arrow is somehow morally superior than shooting them with a machine gun.

The B-29s were burning city after city, carefully and methodically, in order of industrial output. By the time the 1st A-Bomb was used the huge 500 plane fire raids had all but ended. Instead, they were sending squadron sized flights (15-30 planes) to smaller cities and towns and burning them all to the ground; There were just no big cities left to bomb (except for Kyoto - then capitol & home of the Imperial family - and it was 100% off limits). The 500 planes all still went out, but divided up into small formations to bomb small cities. The carnage can not be understated. I agree with LeMay; How is this somehow better than one plane and one big bomb? Is there even a difference? No. Dead is dead.

Were the Japanese warned? Not just the Military, but the civilians also? Yes, REPEATEDLY, and via many different methods. The B-29 crews HATED the "trash missions" - When they had to go drop leaflets. They all felt they should be bombing those cities, not warning them. But we did warn them. Also by conventional and shortwave radio broadcasts - In Japanese, repeating 24 hours a day. The warning leaflets were LeMay's idea. Not so much as a warning as it was psychological warfare. He wanted to show the civilians that their Military could NOT protect them- Even with advance notice. Not many Japanese civilians ever saw those warning leaflets; The Military promptly gathered them all up and destroyed them.

The subject of revisionist history is so disturbing to me that it scares me more than just about anything else. We're already repeating ourselves by ignoring past lessons. Lessons that were hard and bloody to learn. I think it was Eisenhower who said, when viewing the NAZI death camps: "Take lots of pictures of this. We have to document this. Sure as hell some damn fool will come along one day and say it never happened". Amen, Ike.

Bill

[Deans BMW]

Thanks Dave and Son Bill.

Points well taken all. Seemingly forgotten by some.