Holy Mother of God; this is getting a bit silly.

[Optimus Prime]

http://www.businessweek.com/print/autos/content/feb2006/bw20060214_815297.htm

BMW's Electronic Traction Control for Motorcycles...

Perhaps seats that don't suck need to be moved up the priority list, obviously they need things to do.

[BobFV1]

http://www.businessweek.com/print/autos/content/feb2006/bw20060214_815297.htm


Perhaps seats that don't suck need to be moved up the priority list, obviously they need things to do.

I'd just like either a 100.00 cash rebate, or a stock blinker unit on a BMW bike that is self-cancelling so I don't have to buy the Kisan in order to have the same technological advantage I had on my 1983 Gold Wing....

[Gord]

Jason - a fascinating post. Somewhat related to a thread I started a while back about motorcycle technology innovations. The opinion expressed there was that perhaps incremental changes were all we should expect or is all that average riders need. BMW obviously thinks otherwise. That may be good or bad.

What worries me is that they will create a culture or environment in which technology will be assumed to make up for bad fundamental skills. Those of us who ride know how different bikes are from cars. We know how the skill and attention requirements are much greater for those of us on two wheels than those on four. We know that what could be a "casual mistake" in a car could be catastrophic on a motorcycle. Hence we place a high value statement on training - and better yet, advanced training. I know people who got their (car) driver's licence 50 years ago and have never been back to a drivers school. I would say that 75% of the bike riders I know - maybe more - have been back for follow on and supplementary training. I am taking an additional riders course in April. Nothing fancy. Just a good brush up on technique and skill. We have seen technical innovations in cars and trucks that have decreased driver intelligence (I know people who do not look over their shoulder or use their mirrors when backing up because "the vehicle will warn me if I am going to hit something"). I fear that people will see techological innovation in bikes as an excuse that "anybody can ride a bike" without acquiring the appropriate smarts.

On the other hand, seeing that the engineers are using motorcycles to help test innovations that will find their way into four wheel vehicles says something about us, doesn't it? We are pioneers, and without our willingness to spend money on motorcycles, perhaps the R & D community would not benefit to the extent that appear ready to.

Of course maybe I am just smoking hemp here.

[arkline]

"What worries me is that they will create a culture or environment in which technology will be assumed to make up for bad fundamental skills."

Seems that BMW is on the cutting edge of this sort of thinking. Check out this video:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=h8oBB2WjKOA

Takes a while to download, so you may have to run it a couple of times to get the full impact.

[Dallara]

Traction control (or traction assist as some call it) is coming... Like it or not. It's been around on production cars fro quite some time now, and was first seen on F-1 cars decades ago.

Every team in Moto-GP has traction-assist/slip-control and has for the past two years, so BMW trying to take credit for it is sort of ludicrous and highly misleading, though not totally unexpected.

That said, we are going to see it on motorcycles whether we want to or not. Same game that has been going on for decades in today's modern cultures - i.e. "dumbing down" vehicle control to serve the lowest common denominator in skill levels. ABS, air bags, huge bumpers, etc.... all to either keep stupid people from crashing into each other (or crashing themselves) or to save them after they have already crashed. Sort of runs counter-current of Darwin's theory of survival of the fittest. Now we want survival of even the stupid, idiotic, moronic, and irresponsible.

I'm not going to resurrect the old ABS debate in total, but I will go on record again stating that ABS most definitely does attempt to substitute technology for proper skills learning and application. If you don't have to know how to modulate a locking front wheel then you'll never learn how, will you? Especially if the technology won't even allow you to try...

Yamaha's new 2006 R-6 already has the very first vestiges of traction assist/slip control, and it is already in production. It's new *fly-by-wire* throttle control in a way does control tire slip and optimize corner exits. In it's current throttle set-up the rider's right wrist is not even connected mechnically to the throttle butterflies. Nope, it is connected to an electronic pot that sends a signal to the throttle control servo, which actually opens the butterflies... Except that signal gets washed through the onboard computer first, and if the rider is opening the throttle pot too fast for the engine to effectively breathe at that RPM and induction negative pressure the throttle servo will delay its opening and *ramp it* to only open at the rate the engine can stand it. On this bike this is used primarily to eliminate the vacuum slide or second set of throttle butterflies used on most current fuel-injected sport bikes.

This is just one small step away from the same traction control systems use din Moto-GP... All that needs to be added are a couple of wheel speed sensors and the programming done to apply the proper traction control algorithm. No doubt you will see this applied very, very soon (I think some 2007 model Jap bikes will have it... Probably R-1's. GSXR-1000's, ZX-10's, and CBR1000RR's all about the same time, give or take a year), and no doubt you will see it on a Jap bike first.

Even the new MV Agusta 1000 F-4 has a similar system to the Yamaha, which allowed it to dump its complex variable intake length system.

It's coming, and yes, it will further diminish rider skill requirements, which will make more riders think they're heroes and try more stupid stuff they don't have the skills to be tackling.

Scary part of all of this?

The technology is there RIGHT NOW to have *bank angle* sensors, too, and used along with wheel speed sensors and the proper traction control and braking systems... Literally control the motorcycle for you in such a way you can't fall over, but then again you will only be able to corner as fast as the computer will allow you to go. Such a system would have the capability as you leaned into a corner to determine roll and yaw rate, compare it to wheel speed, and decide whether it needed to lessen throttle input - or even apply brakes - to adjust your speed to what the computer thinks you should be doing according to its wheel speed, bank angle, steering head deflection, and yaw rate sensors.

No doubt you will see such a system on a touring bike first, but when it comes the rider won't be much more than a passenger who decides a direction, and rider skill won't matter at all...

Good? Bad?

I'll let you each decide...

Cheers!

Allan (Dallara - NACD)

[DJ Down Under]

All good IMO.

DJ

[DarthRider]

I think traction/skid control on motorcycles is just effin' great!

We need to be safe and saved from ourselves so what could be better? Team it with seat belts, air-bags, roll bars and, of course, servo/linked/ABS and we're getting close.

Maybe resurect Joan Claybook's rear stearing motorcycle.

Personally I'd rather die in a flaming crash than see motorcycles become "safety appliances" designed for the dumbest among us but forced on us all.

Just because you can doesn't mean you should, BMW...

Dave

[Capt. Blackadder]

Can I get an "amen", brother Darth!!

Traction control on motorcycles? Jeebus H. Chrysler. How about getting the goddamned BASICS right first? Could I just suggest the following items on behalf of fellow suffering posteriors?

Include saddles created by ergonomists, not so-called "designers." :097:
Make the handlebars, footpegs, and saddle ADJUSTABLE.
See #1.
See #2.

How hard can it be and how much could it possibly cost?! To have to endure a "saddle" designed by Marquis de Sade on a $10K+ motorcycle is a goddamned disgrace, and don't even get me started on having to spend $500+ on a decent replacement that'll take you farther than 100 miles in a sitting.

Sonofa goddamned bitch... :angry:

[Bones]

How about a nano technology driven "rider shield" that would deploy amidst a crash, so that the rider would be encased in an eggshell type structure that is filled with foam? This would then immediately deflate like an erection after orgasm, leaving the rider unharmed but slimed along the side of the road.

Dallara asks "Good or Bad?"

I am not really seeing much good in all of these specific advances. AND I will bet that if statistics could be collected, it will not decrease rider crash #'s either.

Let's face it, bikes are on two wheels, not four. Gravity is involved. They will crash. These specific advances will only make the rider think they were less close to crashing more of the time and leave themselves less and less margin.

Is that to say all advances are bad? No.

I certainly think that conventional style brakes that can smoothly be activated with two fingers and that give good feedback at the handle but have the capability of stopping the front wheel are great. I also like clutch design that allows for two finger clutching and smooth engagement of the clutch with feel to the transmission. Those are advances. I like suspension that really does damp properly and keeps the tires in contact with the road. I like tires that stick.

I am a wuss....I love heated hand grips.

But these are advances that do not replace skill at any level and, I think, allow a skilled rider to ride skillfully, even better.

I understand and appreciate what fly by wire can do, but I am not a fan of it for motorcycle racing. At what point does the machine define who wins rather than the rider? I think we have passed that point. That takes nothing away from Rossi, but you know there are some riders who just can't stay at the front because of the bike.

But will be still be able to choose not to have some of these technology parts on our bikes in the future? Less and less, I think.

When I bought my GS last year, I was told I was getting one of 6 shipped to the US in '05 that did not have Servo assist brakes/ABS. Who knows if that was true, but if it was, isn't very many out of all sold in the US.

Maybe I should buy that BMW /6 that a neighbor is trying to sell.

Jeff

[fnfalman]

Well, BMW does pride itself in coming out with "safe" features. However, they are not beyond making corrections. For example, it looks like the servo-assist ABS is going away as of the new R1200S.

And look at Yamaha's FJ1300 and the semiautomatic transmission.

Apropos of nothing, I have nothing but praise for BMW seats. Seats are something that either fit a person or doesn't. There is no way a company can do research and make a seat that works well with everybody.

[Road Dog]

There is more sillyness that hasen't been mentoned. In an industry publication a high tech security system was discussed with the dealer profit highlighted. The BMW security key would detect the operators fingerprint and disable the vehicle when an unauthorized person tries to start the vehicle. The high profit benefit to the dealer is in reprogramming the system and selling high dollar replacement keys - if memory serves me it was in the $500 range. 2007 was the time frame for introduction to cars with motorcycles to follow. This is one I hope the bean counters kill.

I don't have a problem with innovation that makes sense. Traction control/ABS is great - automatic transmissions, hey, scooters are great rides - but a lot of this crap just runs up the cost. Items like power brakes for motorcycles that perform no better and only add complexity, cost, weight and make another item to fail are stupid. The current crop of sculpture known as single sided swing arms make great sense for endurance racing but only add cost to a daily rider and prevent many riders from performing their own maintenance.

Beauty is in the eye of the beholder, vote with your dollars.