Design Genius or Cheap as Hell

[Bones]

The other day I finally made myself go to where my race bike has been stored after its (my) crash in turn one at Pocono last October. The procrastination was driven first by the physical pain of the injury sustained during that event, then by the psychological pain that lingered. But I finally did it with the intention of really taking a detailed inventory of parts that needed replacement and to salvage the bike ('05 R6). Interesting findings.

First, the bike was beat up much less badly than I had thought. The overwhelming majority of the damage was plastic. Lots of plastic, mind you, but plastic nonetheless. All the actual working parts on the bike work perfectly.

I took apart the rear end of the bike to assess the subframe which clearly needed straightening. In doing so, one has to take a lot of plastic apart to get to the meat of the bike. Here are a few things that amazed me, though perhaps I shouldn't have been amazed.

1. Plastic is a hell of a lot lighter than metal. OK, that didn't amaze me in and of itself. But I was intrigued to find how many plastic parts Japanese bikes are made of. That is a real advantage for a track oriented bike, in terms of performance, but "crap" is the feeling it left me with in terms of the bike's spirit.
2. Plastic is flimsy or brittle or both. It may be easy to replace, but it breaks easily. You can't fix plastic. You just have to remove it, throw it away and get new.
3. Quick disconnects are wonderful....but man, they are cheesily made on these bikes. That is not to say that they don't work just fine, especially because modern sport bikes aren't expected to be around more than a few years. But they are a marvel of chinsy fabrication.
4. If you don't consider all of the electronics (which you can't really mess around with anyway), once you start taking these bikes apart and putting them back together, it really is amazing how simple most of them are.
5. Did I mention how much plastic they are made of ?
6. Careful application of a giant crow bar can really do wonders. Using a level helps.
7. Use of a crow bar on plastic is a bad idea. Just a random observation.

So is all that plastic a result of design genius or just plain old cheap crap?

On a lighter note:
Working with a friend who is a good helper and who does not insist on being "right" every time someone picks up a tool is a true JOY! I am sure two women working together on some hobby can have a similar experience(though I have no idea what that might be), but I have to say, two guys wrenching on a bike with success and then going to have lunch and then to a motorcycle shop together makes for one HELL of a nice day. I had the good fortune to spend this day with a guy who is good at fixing things on his own, but who didn't want to take control of the project. Both of us found ourselves saying "hey, what do you think about trying to do THIS to fix this situation" rather than "no, you idiot, you do it like this" or "don't do that, do this."

The R6 rebuild would not take much more work to complete.

Just a decent day with snow still on the ground and waiting for the season to get here.

Jeff

[DJ Down Under]

It's just a sign of the times....and just how things are these days...:076:

DJ

[TorqueMonsterMT-01]

Bones;

Nice post. However, being that one of fields of study was polymer science, I am almost offended! (Not really.)

I am sure you are aware of the following things, but it is only fair to put them in type.

1) Racers want their bikes lightweight. As you know well, power to weight ratio translates to speed.
2) Manufacturers want to sell as many bikes as possible to fund the investment, the race teams and the next design. Plastci parts are much more of an affordableinvestment for the OEM in terms of actual parts manufacture as well as tooling, design time, and especially raw material.

Sure, Yamaha could have made a lot of brackets, plates, gussets, etc. out of titanium, but the bike would have cost twice as much or more and still would weigh more than it does now. Secondly, look at your extimated cost for plastic parts replacement. Titanium parts would be much more expensive.

You already pointed out that the life expectancy of these modern sport bikes is short anyway. Plastic simply makes it easier for the average Joe to own a very fast bike right out of the box and still have the desire to buy another one in two or three years.

*********
Plastic doesn't always mean cheap. Carbon fiber and fiberglass (Fiber reinforced plastics or FRP) allow huge benefits for the manufacturer as well as the end user. Used properly, FRP can be as strong as steel, corrosion restant as titanium and much lighter than either. It can be made to very complicated shapes in faster design cycles. The designs can be altered faster and cheaper. Boeing is soon to release a large passenger jet made of mostly "plastic". The entire fuselage will be carbon fiber. Plastics really are fascinating materials that have not been used to 10% of thier potential.
*************

Now, to agree with you on some points.
The Japanese bike industry, and to a slightly lessor extent, all other bike industries rely too much on plastic for asthetic, exterior components. I am fortunate that my MT-01 used less than most Japanese bikes due to its heritage as a concept bike brought to production by a special team, but it has more than I like in a bike.

Japanese cruisers especially use plastic for breeather covers, fluid reservoirs, guage backplates, fake chrome accessories, etc. I truely believe that if they were to make mostly metal components, they couldn't be price competitive with HD.

*******
In defense of plastics. Used properly in a quality design with good solid engineering practices, plastics are a wonderful thing. Used poorly or simply to reduce effort in workmanship without consideration of overall product quality, plastics can leave a bad impression.

Cheers,
Jeff

[Wild Will]

I envy you Jeff, having an MT-01. We are perceived as a cruiser market by the Nipponese mfg's, I guess, and don't get anywhere near the cool bikes that Europe and the rest of the world do. Alas. Boy, that Raptors site really turned my head around about how few bikes are actually exported to the USA.

Bones, I actually bought some broken Ducati plastic so I could turn my 900 SP into a CR at will (cafe fairing). You can repair plastic. They make kits for it. If people didn't automatically resort to insurance claims, granted which they pay for, there'd be lots more repaired plastic on machinery. In San Fran, sport bikes are oft seen naked once they're crashed and then become "rat bikes", and most have frame and axle sliders to prevent further harm. They still ride the same, but with nihilistic post apocalyptic esthetics, if you willl. This's the age of plastic, unless you're willing to go the extra charge for carbon fiber, which still breaks, alas.
Glad you weren't hurt worse than you were and are able to return to track days!

[socalrob]

Interesting thread.

For the complete opposite side, I was by a HD dealer a few months ago. HD's are the antipode of Japanese sport bikes. HD's weigh a friggin ton. But I noticed that the parts you touch, things like brake & clutch levers, have a really nice feel to them. Heavy, thick, smooth metal. I think the appeal of HD's may very well be tactile. Sure is something a neophite rider would appresciate perhaps without knowing the downside of riding a 700 lb bike. I also noticed those levers look like they weigh at least 3 times as much as they have to. Then I looked at the cast wheels. They look as stout as those on my 3/4 ton 4x4 suburban. Like HD is TRYING to make the bike weigh more.

BMW seems half way between. Not light like the Japanese bikes, with all plastic, but not way overengineered (I guess the word should be underengineered, as an engineer would design things just to work, & no more, you know, maybe actually calculate things instead of say, that 1 inch diameter pipe looks stout enough, so we'll use the 1-1/2 pipe to be safe) like the HDs. Some plastic, but not all. I guess in life the middle road may be best.

Bones, glad you had a nice day on what could have been stressful. Sounds like you have a good friend.

[R4R&R]

Speaking of the Harley comments from Rob - the new Rider magazine came with a test of the new Dyna-Low rider. They said over the years Harley has been trying to really make their bikes better, and this is the best Harley yet. Six speed tranny, good cornering clearance, good running, etc. Their only real complaint was the seating position - cramped the legs of the 6 foot rider unless he used the highway pegs. He did kind of look bunched up on that thing! Maybe a non-low rider model would be better?

Anyway, looking past all of the wanna-be Harley bad-asses, I have to respect the brand. I think they are trying to branch out with other models besides cruisers - look at Buell (semi-sport bikes and now an 'adventurer'bike?) and the V-Rod. They need to change with the times to stay alive, and they're trying. Same with BMW.

[Deans BMW]

Rob, "antipode", what an intresting word.

[Wild Will]

Harleys are the most popular bike seen anywhere I ride, except to the USGP. No wonder Europe thinks the USA is just a "cruiser" market, keeping the really cool machines from us because they won't sell here. I have often wished I could like a Harley, but the riding style just doesn't get it. I can't imagine sitting on my butt with my feet out in front of me like some motorized gynecologist chair. But I'm not knocking it. Too many derive pleasure from that motorcycle slash lifestyle and riding two abreast, holding up traffic where there's no passing for 20 miles. And they always salute you with one finger when you pass! I guess anybody who'd wear a black tee shirt on a hundred degree day in the sun and ride with no earplugs just must be a different critter.
Evolution seems to be the antipodes of Harley.
My vocabulary has been enhanced greatly since I've become a Cafe denizen!

[arkline]

The only thing, and I mean only, that I can see that H-D offers that other manufacturers don't is decent seat height for the not-so-tall among us. I could probably ride a bike with a 34" or higher seat height, but I'd have some squirming and teetering to do when it came time to stop.....There are so many brands and models out there that I don't even look at, lustfully or otherwise anymore, simply because the ass-altitude is over my limit...

[Gord]

BMW seems half way between.

I wonder if that is not European bikes in general? I have a hard time equating Triumphs, Ducs or MV Augustas (given my limited knowledge of European bikes beyond these and BMW) with Japanese products. Triumph's Daytona 600 couldn't compare to a Japanese 600. But from what I understand, the Daytona 675 is incredible. Similar at the litre level. My brother's Daytona 955i may not be GSX-R equivalent, but who cares? It is just a different bike with a different feel. And I still think the Speed Trip is one of the most amazing bikes out there. I am not sure any Japanese bike has attained the mythical proportions as a Duc. What gives the Japanese leadership over Europe is price. You can get a whole lot of Japanese motorcycle for a lot less than it takes to get a European motorcycle. Ducati and MV Augusta may be sweet, but I can get a cheaper lap dance down the street thank you! Having said that, I have a real Euro-centric bias to my bike preferences these days.

I have nothing against H-D or any other maker. Almost bought a Victory at one point! And heck, most of my riding buddies are H-D afficianados. I admire their brand loyalty, their willingness to buy anything and everything H-D, and their choice of ride. I like to think that I am as loyal a BMW rider as they are H-D riders. I like to think that my choice of rides (which even though I am approaching 50 is leaning more to sport bike than cruiser) is no better or worse than their choice of ride. What pisses me off is the lack of BMW gadgets and add ons that I can spend my cash on. From motorcycle bits, to riding gear, to "life style accessories' (clothing and doodads), BMW has a ton to learn from H-D.

BMW is leading in many areas (technology) but behind in others (after market and accessories). That does put them in the middle.