Time for speculation [Archive] - Motorcyclist Café

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Deans BMW

03-07-2006, 12:08 PM

Posted this in another thread in the Cafe, would like to hear your speculation. I think that some of you guys might be intuitive enough to make some good guesstimates, can't spill the beans yet but it would be intresting to see if some of you guys can put 2 and 2 and 2 together. Darth not allowed to play.:028:

Don't know if we will know about the new Roadster in April, my gut feelings are released concurrent with the up comming R1200S or near abouts. We might start seeing some hints in April though, BMW is trying to keep this one close to its vest.

Look for something extremely intresting and exciting to start showing in spy photos next year ('07) for an early release as a '08 model. BMW's marketing dept is not even aware of this yet.

This Cafe is the first to have this posted anywhere in any moto rag or web. He He, I know what it is, any more poop would cause some serious prioblems and I would have to kill my self, or one of at least. Lets call it for now......Great Sound.
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Optimus Prime

03-07-2006, 12:17 PM

An inline triple sports bike :028:

Dallara

03-07-2006, 12:44 PM

I'm with Jason (Optimus) on this one...

An inline triple built as a *sawed-off* section of the K1200S motor, and probably very close to the pics that showed of the so-called BMW MotoGP bike... Might even come with conventional forks. Be about 900cc's, turn a lot of RPM, and make about 135-140 HP. Might even be introduced right from the start as an "HP" model, and as such would be called the HP3.

Hell, it might even be chain drive!

If it's not that then my vote starts looking at the BMW-Aprilia connection, and that BMW will offer some bike based on the Aprilia 450-550cc V-twin. In other words, an all-out small displacement sports bike. Might even get as big as 600cc's. Primarily this would be for BMW to try and capture at least some of the 600cc pie outh there, much like Triumph is doing with their 675cc Daytona Triple (BTW, did you see the ride impression of the Triumph in the new "Cycle World"?)... I.E. Going after the 600cc sport bike rider market, but with something far different than another 600cc inline four.

Them's my two guesses... Maybe we'll see 'em both! :037:

Cheers!

Allan (Dallara - NACD)

Optimus Prime

03-07-2006, 01:36 PM

supermotoC

03-07-2006, 01:46 PM

I think we'll see "spy pics" of the new Roadster being tested in April, as the weather in Germany is still pretty crummy this month. Once tourists start going to the south (with their cameras), so will the test riders.....
The NEW unknown thing is probably a mid-size sport bike, and most likely the 2/3 K1200S motor (1200cc x 0.667 = 800cc), and most likely an R6/GSXR/ZX6/CBR killer, that also happens to be the right size for a MotoGP engine. What I hope we see is maybe a 450/550 (Aprilia) engined Adventure bike, or maybe an 800cc (triple? doubtful) Adventure that weighs in around 375+/- lbs. The only category where BMW is really lacking is mid size sport bike, and serious off-road metal, besides the still too big & heavy HP2. If they do a 550 or 650 HP1 (hell, even 800) dual-sport bike that can be optioned towards supermoto or rally raid style, they'll sell a lot of them. BMW's biggest enemy is weight. The lighter these things get, the performance (& then sales) will go into orbit.

DarthRider

03-07-2006, 03:00 PM

Ah, you guys are full of it...and Dean-O I'm going to play anyway.

My guess is it's the long-awaited 1250cc side-valve single Big Bertha Motard, the H-23, marketing name "Brunhilda".
Only 28 hp but 135 ft lbs of torque @1850 rpm.
Direct gear with friction-wheel drive, no tranny, just a single speed w/in-out box.
Optional sidecar w/2 wheel drive & 3-wheel ABS, servo'ed of course.
Toaster Tank for Hoons & Geezers.
Dry weight is currently ~700 lbs. w/o sidehack, but they are hopeful.
Price: $5,990 - electric grips, bags, power socket, seat, handlebars & wheels are mandatory options. ~$27K out the door.

Dallara

03-07-2006, 03:07 PM

But wait, Collyer...

Wouldn't a 3-cylinder version of the K1200S be THREE-FOURTH'S (3/4's) of the big 4-cylinder, and hence be 1200cc x .75 = 900cc's?

One of the things that makes me think 900cc Triple is that just as there are some people who don't like inline engines (because of their power characteristics, etc.) there are also folks who don't like twins... And no matter how much BMW hops up a Boxer Twin those raised and reared on Jap inline fours won't touch 'em. A 900cc Triple cuts the mustard here quite well, much like Triumph's triples... Water-cooled, more 4-cylinder-like power delvery, and not so *odd* looking to those used to inline fours - and yet distinctive and different enough to set itself apart just a bit.

It makes good marketing sense and also good manufacturing sense, since all of the R&D is already done on the K-bikes' transmission, clutch, cylinder head design, cams, injection, etc. BMW did it once before with the three's based on the original 1000cc "Flying Brick" fours, so why not again?

That said, one place BMW is seriously hurting is their lack of any sort of mid-sized bike... The new F800 series twins are simply not going to appeal to performance minded riders brainwashed into believing that to have a performance bike it has to be an inline 3, inline 4, or V-twin. Parallel twins are simply not perceived as "performance" engines despite the fact there is no true evidence to support that misconception. A nice, light 500 to 600cc Aprilia-based V-twin could start a whole new model line for BMW... A 450 and 550 V-twin dual-purpose Adventure-style bike, along with maybe a "standard" street naked-bike, a true sports bike, and maybe even a true SuperMotard twin (ala the donating Aprilia). This would do much to get BMW a broader model base to attract new customers, and again, all the engine R&D is done... Just dress it up enough to differentiate it from the parent Aprilia bikes and make 'em look *BMW* and away you go.

Oh, well... Who really knows except BMW... and Dean, of course! :)

It's still fun speculating, ain't it?

Cheers!

Allan (Dallara - NACD)

arkline

03-07-2006, 03:19 PM

This might be it! It certainly looks like a solid effort:

http://www.tamiya.com/english/products/61082me262_ketten/ketten_top.jpg (http://www.geocities.com/Pentagon/3620/ketten.jpg)
Note: this is really weird, but I've had to go out and collect an image for this machine three times now, because the image mysteriously disappears from the post, sort of like Allan's pics. Very odd.

supermotoC

03-07-2006, 03:29 PM

uhhhhhh, lemme see, 4 goes into 3....., naahh - doesn't it say 2/3 of a 1200? I know, it's the new math.

Arkline, you so crazy.....

I agree that Joe Rocket (pun intended) thinks he HAS to have an inline 4 to be fast, and to make a lot of racket on Thursday night @ the Sonic Drive In. I also think a triple 900 is too close to a 1200, and that a 750 or 800 is the magic size, power to weight being what it is these days. A twin? Sure, maybe not as pleasant power delivery as a V (or boxer), but when balanced, is a nice motor (nice & light, too). Maybe they'll marry two Aprilia 450 V-twins and make a ridiculous sport bike. I'd like to see them make a high-torque, 50HP version of the 650 single motor for a serious Rally or SM bike, and keep it under $9k, please.
This is an exciting time, I need to win the lottery this year for sure.

lkyphl

03-07-2006, 04:56 PM

OK, I'll bite .....

I reckon it'll be a supercharged flat four, pneumatically operated valves with variable timing, belt drive ........

Phil

R4R&R

03-07-2006, 05:39 PM

Are we talking roadster, or new model? Are we talking boxer, or new engine design? I thought we were talking about a boxer based roadster - the replacement for our bikes?

R1200r? I can't think of anything special that would make it it's own bike. The R1200s is the sporty version; the ST - exactly that, sport touring; the GS - adventure; and the RT - touring. Where would the new roadster fit in?

DJ Down Under

03-07-2006, 05:53 PM

I still have my fingers crossed that this is it...:eusa_pray:

DJ

http://members.optusnet.com.au/~djp1/mypic2184.jpg

Deans BMW

03-07-2006, 05:55 PM

This is truly intresting and fun. Also intresting some of your logic....which, by the way is very good....................

But Darths big single.............Hoochie Mama.

A pic of Collyer (supermotoC) on his way home as he left our house several years ago, froze his butt off riding thru Alpine.
Collyer is also on the money about some upcomming spy shots, re the R1200R.

http://r1150r.smugmug.com/photos/59007681-M.jpg

Deans BMW

03-07-2006, 05:59 PM

I was not talking about the upcomming Roadster at the start of this speculation thread.:028:

TorqueMonsterMT-01

03-07-2006, 06:57 PM

Maybe they'll marry two Aprilia 450 V-twins and make a ridiculous sport bike.

Now that's what I'm talkin' about! This sounds like a great idea. A light, small good handling sport bike with a mini V-Max type power curve.

RiceBurner

03-08-2006, 09:42 AM

I think BMW are going to move away from attempting to equal or better the Japanese and Italian bikes.

1) the BMW Bike division is very small, rather unpopular within the very senior management (ie the priate owners don't really like bikes).

2) Historically whenever BMW have attempted to equal or better the rest of the market they haven't succeeded (note - NOT failed, just haven't succeeded).

3) Historically BMW have done very well by carving their own niche within the biking world. A niche that they still dominate, with little or no competition. I can't see them giving up that niche, nor can I see anyone attempting to enter it (Honda are the closest with the Pan).

4) BMW rely heavily on an existing consumer base, they're not going to risk alienating them The current K12 series bikes are very nearly doing that. (why else would the K12GT have been announced)

Optimus Prime

03-08-2006, 10:19 AM

http://www.roadracingworld.com/news/article/?article=24962
Found here:
http://bmwsporttouring.com/ubbthreads/showflat.php?Number=639450

Dallara

03-08-2006, 10:31 AM

Optimus...

Well, that certainly does have chain drive... and a conventional fork... and it is a three-cylinder.

No, don't ask me how I know that it's a 3. I could tell ya' but then I'd haf'ta kill ya'... :031:

So, the only question is - Is that the foundation for a production bike, and if so, will BMW produce it?

Cheers!

Allan (Dallara - NACD)

Dallara

03-08-2006, 10:43 AM

Oh, and one other thing, Riceburner...

Ya' got to explain to me how the BMW K1200LT is not going head to head with the Honda Gold Wing... Granted, the Gold Wing is built in the USA, but it is built by a Japanese company.

And ya' got to explain to me how the K1200S wasn't aimed squarely at the Hayabusa... BMW even mentioned Suzuki Hayabusa's in some of their pre-production and pre-release hype for the K1200S...

And over here in the USA one of the most seen ads for the BMW K1200R was the "Cook Japanese" marketing ploy.

Like it or not, BMW is in direct competition with the Japanese, and they know they have to compete with them to survive in the marketplace. It is apparent they are looking ot broaden the appeal of their model offerings or we wouldn't be seeing bikes like the K1200R and F800 series. You can only exist on brand cachet for so long, and then your market penetration begins to shrink... This happened to BMW once before, and I think they learned their lesson from it. It is just beginning to happen to Harley now, and as such we are actually starting to see discounts on Harley's (instead of them consistently selling for over retail), and even Harley is striving to broaden their market with bikes like the V-Rod series and the Buell's.

BMW pretty much *owns* the "Adventure" bike market, but others are beginning to snipe some of that from them... In the USA witness the KTM 950 Adventure and the new Buell Ulysses. I think BMW knows they have to vranch and try and get some small slices of other market areas in order to have some growth. In today's marketplace you have to expereince growth. If you don't, and simply try to maintain the status quo, you will get slaughtered and die.

Adam Smith's "Invisible Hand" at its finest.

That said, BMW better get their pricing under control here in the States, and real quick, or they are going to get hurt, hurt, hurt...

Of course, that's just my humble opinion... YMMV.

Cheers!

Allan (Dallara - NACD)

supermotoC

03-08-2006, 10:54 AM

I think BMW are going to move away from attempting to equal or better the Japanese and Italian bikes.

I respectfully disagree - I think they HAVE been ignoring Japan & Italy, and they are taking them on, albeit in their teutonic, awkward-styled way.

1) the BMW Bike division is very small, rather unpopular within the very senior management (ie the priate owners don't really like bikes).
If this were true, there would be BMW bikes no more. Popular = raking in the $$..... unpopular = losing $$$$.

2) Historically whenever BMW have attempted to equal or better the rest of the market they haven't succeeded (note - NOT failed, just haven't succeeded).

When did they EVER try this? The K1200S is DEFINITELY taking a chunk of the Hayabusa crowd, no?

3) Historically BMW have done very well by carving their own niche within the biking world. A niche that they still dominate, with little or no competition. I can't see them giving up that niche, nor can I see anyone attempting to enter it (Honda are the closest with the Pan).

Dead on, bruvah. Ktm's 990 Adventure & Honda's Varadero are trying really hard to knock off the GS from it's perch, and the GoldWing always gives the LT a run for it's $20,000.

4) BMW rely heavily on an existing consumer base, they're not going to risk alienating them The current K12 series bikes are very nearly doing that. (why else would the K12GT have been announced)

No way - the K1200RS (old) riders are postively moist about the new Ks.
You shoiuld check out http://www.bmwk1200s.com/ & http://www.bmwkrs.com/

No disrespect intended here, but I think BMW is going to keep it's loyal customers w/ the RTs/GSs/Roadster/and LTs, and try to keep them home w/ the K1200S/Rs, and the R1200S. The new 800s and whatever mystery bikes are coming will definitely go after the boys spending $$$ on R6/ZX-6/GSXRs etc. Talk about taking chances - look at the HP2!! Who (in their right mind) is going to spend >$20,000 for a marginally-capable dirt bike that is street legal & weighs 450lbs? I guess they think they'll sell enough....
Exciting, isn't it? :028:

Deans BMW

03-08-2006, 11:50 AM

You will always see a BMW two cylinder Boxer motor, just as HD will always have a V Twin. BMW will definitely branch out into other engine types. Their long range game plan is to produce premimum products very competitive in both price and performance. So far we have seen singles, Boxer Twins, Brick triples and 4 cyl's and, new canted 4's and parallel twins.

BMW has stated at their latest dealer Mtg in New York that they intend to make their new products price and performance competitive and they don't intend to be price competive with HD............

geechie

03-08-2006, 01:49 PM

I want a "price and performance competitive" R1200R. Period. End of story. All else is diversion.

Please Dean, tell them to hurry.

George

supermotoC

03-09-2006, 11:36 AM

Ahhhhhh.... sweet diversion.....

was that out loud?

:073:

MidlifeMark

03-09-2006, 06:23 PM

Ummmm, how about a 160 HP water-cooled 1600cc Boxer luxury tourer, the R1600LT.

Never mind, I'll go back in my hangar and be quiet now.

Optimus Prime

03-09-2006, 06:55 PM

Any chance the non-servo ABS in the R1200S will be available on the other Boxers?

Dallara

03-10-2006, 09:02 AM

You watch, Optimus...

BMW is going to slowly and quietly walk away from servo-assist as quickly as they can, hoping no one notices.

Cheers!

Allan (Dallara - NACD)

Optimus Prime

03-10-2006, 09:18 AM

You watch, Optimus...

BMW is going to slowly and quietly walk away from servo-assist as quickly as they can, hoping no one notices.

Cheers!

Allan (Dallara - NACD)
I truly hope so. With the R1200S getting it, I'm hoping that it will start to appear (at least as an option) in the other models.

I really want my bikes to have ABS, but I'm really starting to detest the servo setup. It really sucks that BMW has them melded together.

fganger

03-10-2006, 09:29 AM

“Please Dean, tell them to hurry.” Reminds me of a prayer; “Lord give me patience and I want it now.”
:)

Frank