Harley's plans

[Blackdog]

An excerpt from http://www.asphaltandrubber.com/news/return-cagiva /


According to its plan, Harley-Davidson is going to develop and launch a number of new model lines under the Cagiva name, with the popular Raptor being the first to see the new light, as early as mid-2010. Rumors expect the bike to feature a 140hp, 1125cc liquid-cooled v-twin, likely the Rotax engine that’s also used on the Buell 1125R and the 1125CR.

In addition to the big displacement Raptor, Harley also has plans for smaller motored Cagivas, likely in the 125,650, and 800cc segments. Harley-Davidson is expect to source these motors from BMW and Piaggio. There is also speculation that the Elefant may also be revived. According to the plan, Cagiva will build the Elefant as a dual-purpose machine fitted with either the 1125cc Rotax v-twin, or a different motor of roughly the same capacity but sourced from elsewhere.

In long-term goals, Harley-Davidson would like to see Cagiva produce a full-blown superbike. Fitted with a highly tuned 1200cc version of the Rotax v-twin, with power on par with the competition, Cagiva would aim to compete with BMW, Aprilia, Ducati, and the four Japanese manufacturers in the liter bike segment.

[JCsman]

An excerpt from http://www.asphaltandrubber.com/news/return-cagiva /

According to its plan, Harley-Davidson is going to develop and launch a number of new model lines under the Cagiva name,

Interesting. In another post we see that H-D is on the brink of financial ruin....

Where did I put that crystal ball?

[Griffon]

Interesting. In another post we see that H-D is on the brink of financial ruin....

Where did I put that crystal ball?

Buying MV Agusta could be one of the reasons things aren't right with the Motor Co. I don't understand this move when they have the Buell line to play with and develop.

[JCsman]

I think there are s few possible reasons, Grif. My speculation:

First, the hard core H-D faithful have not embraced either the Buells or the sportier HDs (e.g. the Street Rod) the way the MoCo had hoped. The acquisition lets them tap into other types (adventure, sports bikes) in a way that doesn't conflict with or dilute H-D.

H-D demographics are not the best. Age wise they're heavily weighted towards... well... me. They need to attract a younger following.

Finally, Europe and other places have been sales growth areas for H-D. There is where the V-Rods, for example, are selling well. It also explains why the XR1200 went to Europe first. The acquisition gives them more presence in this bike rich environment...again with non-traditional customers.

But, as always, timing is important. I suspect the acquisition was well underway when the market began to soften, let alone now that the bottom has fallen out.

[Griffon]

I think there are s few possible reasons, Grif. My speculation:

First, the hard core H-D faithful have not embraced either the Buells or the sportier HDs (e.g. the Street Rod) the way the MoCo had hoped. The acquisition lets them tap into other types (adventure, sports bikes) in a way that doesn't conflict with or dilute H-D.

H-D demographics are not the best. Age wise they're heavily weighted towards... well... me. They need to attract a younger following.

Finally, Europe and other places have been sales growth areas for H-D. There is where the V-Rods, for example, are selling well. It also explains why the XR1200 went to Europe first. The acquisition gives them more presence in this bike rich environment...again with non-traditional customers.

But, as always, timing is important. I suspect the acquisition was well underway when the market began to soften, let alone now that the bottom has fallen out.

A lot of your speculations make a lot of sense, and echo quotes from the HD brass I remember reading when Motorcyclist reported on the MV acquisition. I get Harley wanting to use MV as a means to grab more of the European market share.

What doesn't make as much sense is how little support the Motor Company gives to the Buell line. I agree it's a waste to market the Buells to the HD faithful, but it seems like with the two most recent models they could really break into a younger demographic that is more centered on sport riding. I have read nothing but favorable reviews on either the 1125R or the 1125CR. Both have distinctive styling and seem like they would be fun rides. Blasts would make excellent first rides for pretty much anybody. Of the dealers a reasonable ride away, only a few carry the Buell line and only one of those features the bikes prominently on the showroom floor.

I can't help but think that there was a missed opportunity here...

[Blackdog]

While I was at the Seattle International show I was surprised how much the traditional HD riders hated the new XR1200. They don't like the VRod or Buells either. I of course love the Buells and V Rods and I think the XR is the best HD ever made.

It's nice to see HD moving to the performance bikes, can't wait to see what happens.

[JCsman]

While I was at the Seattle International show I was surprised how much the traditional HD riders hated the new XR1200. They don't like the VRod or Buells either. I of course love the Buells and V Rods and I think the XR is the best HD ever made.

It's nice to see HD moving to the performance bikes, can't wait to see what happens.

Our tastes are similar it seems. [Enter rant mode]

If tradition holds, these bikes will fade. Business. If they don't sell, they won't be made. H-D has tried before.

- The old "Cafe Racer"? Sat unwanted in showrooms for a LONG time, now a very desirable collectible.
- The Street Rod. Stopped making them a couple of years ago.
- XL1200R, a semi-sporty Sportster. Nope, not this year. Besides, why build a performance bike for "chicks" and beginners?
- FXRS (could have that a bit off) from a decade or two ago. Pretty cool, performance big twin. Looked good to me. Reportedly handled quite well. Sold poorly, dropped.
- XR1200 - Big gripes they were Euro-only. They bring in a very limited run, first come, first served. Now sitting on showrooms. At my local dealer it can be ridden as a demo bike.
- Buells. What you talkin' about, Willis? That ain't no Harley. As noted above, many dealers don't carry them. One in Alabama has 2 or 3 hidden in the back corner. Look 'em over all you want, the salesmen won't bother you a bit.

Fortunately Buell has its own identity. I hope they survive the business down turn. Adding a pretty danged good adventure bike over the past few years diversifies their business. The new engine in the two new 1125's diversifies further. It might help.

H-D is being hoisted on its own petard. They have developed/encouraged such a mystique about H-D and image of what a REAL motorcycle (H-D) looks like... that they are trapped in their own mold. Even when they make substantial improvements (e.g. this year's touring bike frames are said to be much improved) it's still almost HAS to be visibly related to a 15 year old model.

Of course, that being said (absent current economic conditions) it's been a mighty sweet petard to be hoisted upon! H-D sales have been the envy of all. Not to mention sales of bling for both bike and rider.

So, the rub becomes how to lure new blood into the show room without angering that invaluable fan base? The H-D faithful have learned other brands are to be sneered at (yeah, I generalize). How do you introduce a bike that looks foreign into that crowd, even with an H-D badge? How do you make a sporting bike that looks H-D, yet is sporting enough for young blood?

The V-Rod and its liquid cooled engine was to be the future of H-D as emissions and noise standards crept up. But that HUGE fan base thinks the V-Rod is not a real Harley, at least that's what they say down here. Ain't air cooled; no push rods; sounds funny; doesn't look like a Harley. Looks a bit furrin', don't it, Bubba?

As I noted, they've dropped the Street Rod after 2006. And now they have substituted a raked out V-Rod with a 240 rear tire and added body trim to make the bike look bulkier... in some ways more Harley, and less original V-Rod. I like the V-Rods, but I don't see many on the road.

Look at the youth scene in motorcycling. I think you'll always see dirt bikes as a great intro (and beyond). I see lots of sport bikes. On TV, for the youth? I see stunters. I see more and more customs/show bikes built on sport bike platforms.

I hope H-D can break free and make both great cruisers and successful bikes with sports aspects. But it sure is an uphill battle to break that mold.

[DarthRider]

Good analysis Bill.

Harley did a great job of seeing, recognizing & marketing to the Baby Boomer bubble. I think the end of the Boomers will be the real test for HD, assuming of course that they (and everyone else) survives this economic Tsunami. And I surely hope they do. Assuming that, what HD does then will determine their future, IMO.
Later generations will not embrace the "old-school" stuff for much longer and will demand different solutions. I think there will always be a market for what has become, like the automobile V-8, a classic American icon, the V-twin. But it will have to be packaged and presented very differently. Yes, I know V-8s and V-twins are not exclusively American, but they are emblematic of American cars & bikes.

I think Victory is a step or two ahead in regard to a "new paradigm". Initially, their stuff was very HD clone-ish, but now they are heading in different - progressive - directions and I even hear some HD faithful saying nice things. When I was still with Bikers Choice, I had a good back-channel to Victory's Product Development group and they were working on several projects that would be of great interest here, and elsewhere I imagine. Let's hope they survive as well.

S&S Cycles in Wisconsin is another player, although not directly. But I think they provide a window into HD & Victory's futures that you won't get from those companies. They are mainly an "alternate engine" company, making high performance "HD type" engines...and recently a lot more. This link is to their new "X-Wedge" engine that at first blush resembles an HD motor. It is not related at all, but is a forward-think "green" performance engine designed to allow the American push-rod, air cooled big V-twin engine to flourish for years to come. It will not fit in a HD chassis as previous S&S motors, that's how committed they are to helping the industry turn a big corner.
Shown below is a link to their X-Wedge engine technology.

http://www.x-wedge.com/guts1.htm

Here are some are pics of what some of their customers are doing with the motor...I think most folks here will find something to like. And hopefully take heart at where the American motorcycle industry is headed (I hope). In addition of course to whatever comes from Buell and the new HD affiliates.

http://www.x-wedge.com/images/projectx/Edmondson-Card.gif

http://www.x-wedge.com/gallery/images/gallery/streetfighter2.jpg

http://www.x-wedge.com/images/projectx/Rucker-Card.gif

S&S is not Harley...but being an aftermarket company has to be a little more transparent with their technology than an OE. But by the way, S&S has a very close relationship with S&S. They make many components for them, mainly thier performance parts.
I think we can rest assured that HD is at least equal in plans for green air-cooled V-twins. How long will that kind of engine last and what will the manufactures do with them?
Who knows, but I think that is a large part of what will determine the fate of HD...and Victory.

[DarthRider]

This one is for Scott & Randy...

http://www.x-wedge.com/leno/index.html

[Griffon]

This one is for Scott & Randy...

http://www.x-wedge.com/leno/index.html

It's a pity they didn't film it in action. I'd love to hear that x wedge fire up...

[DarthRider]

Griff, go to the X-Wedge home...they have sound files.
In the grand scheme of things, this engine may be a much bigger deal than it would seem.

[jpenney]

Once all the bolts are out—by the way, all of the bolts used in the rocker covers, cam cover and cam plate are the same size and length to simplify assembly—the cam plate and cams lift off easily.


I wish more manufacturers in all industries thought about fastener choice like that. Computer rackmount chassis are terrible. One supplier we have used had three different types of screws holding the lib on.

[Griffon]

Griff, go to the X-Wedge home...they have sound files.
In the grand scheme of things, this engine may be a much bigger deal than it would seem.

I remember reading the piece in CycleWorld. The engine sounded great on paper!

I'm off to check the sound files!

[Donson]

When I bought My 98 Buell Cyclone,I couldnt wait to take it to Boondocks, a local watering hole and hang out for actual bikers (as in actual knuckle draggers), All were interested in the Buell,but I underwent the expected derogatory comments (cast Your pearls before swine and all that) Finally came the expected THAT ANT NO F#*#*#*g Harley!!! I calmly reached for My wallet and pulled out a payment coupon,which said in big black letters HARLEY DAVIDSON CREDIT.This bike was built in York ,Pa and it doesnt get much more American than that.I thought I was gonna get an ass whoopin,but the more those guys were around that bike,the fewer the comment,and finally,grudging respect.If I wanted verbal abuse,all I had to do was go home and get My 73 Yoshimur Z-1.They could mean-mouth Me all day,but they sure couldnt keep up! Will I buy another Buell,possibly,but I will always think welll of My Buell experience,and I wish I had kept it,traded it in on a 1200 Sportster-LOOK,NOW HES RIDIN A SKIRTSTER!!!!!!

[jpenney]

1200 Sportster-LOOK,NOW HES RIDIN A SKIRTSTER!!!!!!

At least it's the big one! :-P

I had a non-rider ask about mine, "Is it the big one or the little one?"

[Donson]

That 1200 Skirtster put the hurt on plent of Big Twins....