Emissions test results [Archive]

JCsman

01-06-2009, 08:16 PM

Don't have a clue here in in Alabamistan. No air tests, no safety gear tests on any vehicles.

Our State motto:
My Dad's lungs are blacker than your Dad's lungs.

Interesting they are testing though. And really interesting how low your numbers are compared to the standards. It shows how much gunk comes out of the pipes of some bikes.

There are rumblings in the greenest side of the air quality folk (I get to deal with them at work) that bikes put out way too much air pollutants even with catalytic converters and charcoal canisters. Bikes get good gas mileage, but it's dirty miles compared with cars.

If they get the upper hand, this may turn out to be the last, best days of performance bikes ('til Scott or RChop perfect the electric bike).

Jaythro

01-07-2009, 04:05 AM

Hydrocarbons (HC) in ppm: 13 (1800 is the upper limit)
Carbon Monoxide (CO) in %: 0.18 (5.50 is the upper limit)

It would be interesting to hear what numbers others have been getting
That is interesting, I wonder did a part of that valve or barrel shoot down the exhaust and take out the lamda probe and possibly start teh cat breaking up?

We used to set the older bikes with a potentiometer to 1.5 to 2.2.% CO to alleviate "Alleged" surging problems

0.18 is too low from my recollections but I don't have access to data anymore

It's like the poor girl is running on air and I would strongly suspect why your bike ate a valve in the first place

Capt. Blackadder

01-12-2009, 10:32 AM

That is interesting, I wonder did a part of that valve or barrel shoot down the exhaust and take out the lamda probe and possibly start teh cat breaking up?

We used to set the older bikes with a potentiometer to 1.5 to 2.2.% CO to alleviate "Alleged" surging problems

0.18 is too low from my recollections but I don't have access to data anymore

It's like the poor girl is running on air and I would strongly suspect why your bike ate a valve in the first place

I suspect that the missing chunk from the burned valve was simply vaporized. I saw no marks on the O2 sensor when I pulled it, and I hope the cat is ok, as that would be an expensive mother to replace. The test results certainly seem to support that it's healthy. That said, these numbers seem almost impossibly low.

I've done a lot to eliminate potential culprits with what I have and what I've learned on various forums, but it's a bitch having been unemployed since the end of April, as I can't spare much for the bike. That's one reason this has taken so long. I did, however, recently find a new fuel pressure gauge for a very reasonable price and will hook that up soon. Maybe that will provide an indication to what's wrong.

Jaythro

01-12-2009, 05:43 PM

I suspect that the missing chunk from the burned valve was simply vaporized. I saw no marks on the O2 sensor when I pulled it, and I hope the cat is ok, as that would be an expensive mother to replace. The test results certainly seem to support that it's healthy. That said, these numbers seem almost impossibly low.

I've done a lot to eliminate potential culprits with what I have and what I've learned on various forums, but it's a bitch having been unemployed since the end of April, as I can't spare much for the bike. That's one reason this has taken so long. I did, however, recently find a new fuel pressure gauge for a very reasonable price and will hook that up soon. Maybe that will provide an indication to what's wrong.
I am so frickin slow at the minute!!!!

Baldur did you check the Throttle potentiometer settings?

Thats a freebie and won't cost you anything, cos you won't need anything more than a decent accurate voltmeter!

Capt. Blackadder

01-12-2009, 11:46 PM

Baldur did you check the Throttle potentiometer settings?

Yes, it's currently set at about 360mV. I have a pretty good digital multimeter and I've tried various settings, from 330mV to over 400, but that hasn't helped. In fact, I went out on a limb a few months ago and replaced the TPS just in case so it's almost brand new, but that didn't help either, unfortunately.

One odd thing... with the idle bypass screws turned all the way in, the motor still idles at over 1000 rpm when it's warmed up. I haven't found an air leak, and all the O-rings look to be in fine shape, so it may be lack of fuel that is leaning things out. Perhaps a weak fuel pump, a cracked fuel filter, or a bad fuel regulator. I'll mount the new fuel pressure gauge as soon as I get one more thing in the mail, and then we'll see if the pressure's good.

Sir Limpsalot

01-13-2009, 05:40 AM

When did you last change the fuel filter? I recall an article in our BMW club magazine from a guy who traced running problems to a partially blocked filter. He cut it open and took photo's of the gunk.
A new filter sits in it's box on a shelf in my shed, waiting for me to summon up the enthusiasm to fit it. I understand it's something of a pain to do. It'd be a hell of a cheap fix if your problem does turn out to be that though..

One thing's for sure, the weak mixture and the running problem will prove to be related.

As always, good luck.

Si.

Capt. Blackadder

01-13-2009, 10:35 AM

When did you last change the fuel filter? I recall an article in our BMW club magazine from a guy who traced running problems to a partially blocked filter.

I changed the fuel filter back in March 2008, while I was waiting for the repaired heads to return from San Jose BMW. I used an aftermarket filter from Beemerboneyard, which is supposedly a direct, but significantly less expensive, replacement for the original BMW filter. If I don't see 43 psi of pressure or thereabouts when I hook up the new fuel pressure gauge, I'll have to burrow into that fuel pump/filter assembly again... oh joy. If that turns out to be fine, that leaves the fuel pressure regulator, which is probably even more joy to replace.

Jaythro

01-13-2009, 01:19 PM

idle speed when hot should be 1050 to 1100 rpm

What condition are your intake rubbers? (Cyl head to throttle body)

Capt. Blackadder

01-13-2009, 02:44 PM

What condition are your intake rubbers? (Cyl head to throttle body)

They're in fine shape.

Sir Limpsalot

01-14-2009, 03:40 AM

Perhaps you could post a few photo's as you go? Where and how you plumb the guage in, that sort of thing. I, for one, would be very interested.

Cheers,
Si.

PS. Wouldn't it be a bastard if the new fuel filter proved to be the problem? I am reminded of something that happened to me years ago. I serviced Lin's car and changed the ignition condenser while I was in the distributor. All went well for a couple of weeks then it started to run badly. I went through it all and remember thinking "Can't be the condenser, I only put a new one in the other day.." Of course, after ages spent faffing about, it did prove to be the case that the new one I'd fitted was faulty. I got the old one out of the toolbox, fitted it and all was well. Bastard.

DarthRider

01-14-2009, 09:58 AM

"Condensor?" "Distributor?"

There are race teams who never run certain parts as "new", only proven "used" parts.

Capt. Blackadder

01-14-2009, 10:38 AM

Perhaps you could post a few photos as you go? Where and how you plumb the gauge in, that sort of thing. I, for one, would be very interested.

Cheers,
Si.

PS. Wouldn't it be a bastard if the new fuel filter proved to be the problem?

That would be a right fat bastard indeed. As for the gauge installation, I will definitely post a few pics later.

Sir Limpsalot

01-15-2009, 02:14 AM

"Condensor?" "Distributor?"

Another porrige/oatmeal issue then. Look at this photo of a Mini engine. Find the spark plugs. Plug caps are fitted which connect the HT (high tension) leads. Follow the HT leads back to the distributor cap. There is a fifth HT lead (called the "King" lead) which goes off to the coil. Under the distributor cap is a rotor arm which is mounted on a revolving shaft, running through the main body of the distributor itself. On this shaft is a cam which opens the contact breaker points as it turns. The contact breakers are wired in with a condensor (you might call it a capacitor?).

http://i233.photobucket.com/albums/ee298/thruxton120/LyddenClassics038.jpg

All car engines of a "certain age" had this stuff. Thankfully no longer. I do not miss faffing about with points gaps/dwell angles in the slightest. No sir.

Cheers,
Si.

panthercity

01-15-2009, 08:45 AM

...All car engines of a "certain age" had this stuff. As did my `77 Suzuki 750. Of course, the hot-rod trick at the time was a pair of Chevy HiPo points to replace the stockers and increase RPM before points float had its way...

http://www.panthercity.net/MC/points.jpg

Thankfully no longer. I do not miss faffing about with points gaps/dwell angles in the slightest. No sir.

Cheers,
Si.I don't miss points and condensors or drum brakes or tank shifts. Occasionaly I miss kickstarters though.

DarthRider

01-15-2009, 09:38 AM

All car engines of a "certain age" had this stuff. Thankfully no longer. I do not miss faffing about with points gaps/dwell angles in the slightest. No sir.

Cheers,
Si.

Oh yes, I remember them all too well!
And, adding bikes to the mix, I always wondered...why did we always save the old plugs, wires, condensers, points, O-rings, crush washers, worn out control cables, gaskets, etc.?

panthercity

01-15-2009, 11:13 AM

The above picture is why we save all that old garabage. We know, in our heart-of-hearts that someday we will amuse other old codgers with `em...

DarthRider

01-15-2009, 11:26 AM

The above picture is why we save all that old garabage. We know, in our heart-of-hearts that someday we will amuse other old codgers with `em...

Bob, I'll give you $50 for that points plate, and not a penny more!

Sir Limpsalot

01-15-2009, 11:28 AM

I always wondered...why did we always save the old plugs, wires, condensers, points, O-rings, crush washers, worn out control cables, gaskets, etc.?

I have a fine collection of (slightly) used BMW crush washers. "They'll come in handy one day". Fool.

I also have a full shim kit for DOHC Hondas. If 1979 ever comes back round I'm gonna make a killing..

Si.

panthercity

01-15-2009, 04:40 PM

Bob, I'll give you $50 for that points plate, and not a penny more!
Bravo Sierra! I paid Team 315/Yosh $39.99 for it w/o the points. Had to pick them up at Scotty's Auto Supply.

JCsman

01-15-2009, 04:42 PM

All car engines of a "certain age" had this stuff.

At best (and under Dad's watchful eye) I rated "shade tree mechanic's helper" status. And THAT was years ago. But, a set of points on an 850 Fiat Spider once convinced my college roommate I was a mechanical "God".

He called with his dead Fiat (a common enough occurance) one day. I happened to keep a logging chain in my vehicle in those days, so I headed out to tow him in.

But, he asked me to take a look. I pulled the distributor cap and saw that abrazillion sparks had built up a large "peak" on one side of the points. (No telling if that thing had EVER had a tune up). I filed/scaped it off. The Fiat fired right up and on he went, convinced I was the greatest wrentch in Kansas...little knowing he'd nearly plumbed the depths of my skill set.

With todays computer chips... sigh... I can barely tune the radio. 'Course they don't fail as often.

1MPH

01-15-2009, 04:51 PM

sigh... I can barely tune the radio.

Now there's a skill set I can identify with. :)

DarthRider

01-15-2009, 05:03 PM

Hey Bill, you know what Fiat stands for?
Fix it again Tony!

Sir Limpsalot

01-16-2009, 02:02 AM

Hey Bill, you know what Fiat stands for?
Fix it again Tony!

As opposed to Mr Ford's "Fix or repair daily"

Si.

1MPH

01-16-2009, 10:38 AM

As opposed to Mr Ford's "Fix or repair daily"

Si.

Also

Found On Road Dead.

JCsman

01-16-2009, 11:51 AM

For
Old
Retired
Drivers

:icon_redface:But we are fans of the Ford at mi casa....

mrogge

01-16-2009, 11:53 AM

Also

Found On Road Dead.

or

Fine Old Rebuilt Dodge.

Capt. Blackadder

01-16-2009, 12:18 PM

Most Hijacked Thread Ever. :lol8:

DarthRider

01-16-2009, 12:25 PM

Or that fine British motorcycle, the BSA.
Bastard Stopped Again.
I swear Mz. Betty's MGA is nothing but a 4-wheeled BSA!

And then of course, there is the Brough Superior, or "Rough Inferior".
Or the Royal Enfield, "Royal Oilfield".
Norton, "Notrun".
Si, help us out on the Brits...I know there are more!

Harley Davidson, "Hardley Abelson".
BMW, "Bavarian Money Waster".

"You'll never wear out the Indian Scout,
or his brother the Indian Chief.
They're built like rocks to take hard knocks,
it's the Harleys that cause the grief!"

This was an actual Indian advertising slogan from the 20s...can you imagine anything like that now?

panthercity

01-16-2009, 02:24 PM

Hey Bill, you know what Fiat stands for?
Fix it again Tony!
First
Italian
Attempt at
Transportation

Sir Limpsalot

01-16-2009, 02:35 PM

Most Hijacked Thread Ever. :lol8:

Good old Baldur. Thanks.

Now, about your fuel problems..

Si.

Capt. Blackadder

01-29-2009, 04:11 PM

AZBMWRIDER

01-29-2009, 10:45 PM

I finally got the part I was waiting for in the mail, and hooked up the new fuel pressure gauge today. Fired the bike up, and... the pressure holds steady at just under 44 psi, exactly like it should. So that's good news, nothing wrong with the fuel pump, fuel filter, or pressure regulator (whew!). The bad news, of course, is that the hunt is back on.

That Sucks...

By the way, did yo see that "New" White R1200R over at Victory.?

SWEET..!

http://motorrad-keiyo.blogzine.jp/blog/images/2008/08/22/r1200r_1.jpg

Deans BMW

01-30-2009, 08:05 AM

Wow, that bike is a beaut.

The R1200R is one of the best all around bikes out there.

Sir Limpsalot

01-30-2009, 09:10 AM

The bad news, of course, is that the hunt is back on.

Oh bugger. Where next then Baldur?

Cheers,
Si.

Capt. Blackadder

01-30-2009, 09:49 AM

By the way, did yo see that "New" White R1200R over at Victory?
Yeah, I saw it the other day! "Sweet" is definitely the word, but I'll have to wait until there's an absolute fire sale on new bikes before I even consider that option. :)

Oh bugger. Where next then Baldur?
Well, quite frankly there isn't much left to check. I think I'll try looking for air leaks again, perhaps even using high tack sealant on some joints. Might get lucky and seal up a tiny air leak somewhere. I'm just hoping and praying to the moto gods that the cylinders, pistons, and rings are ok and that I don't have to rip everything apart again.

:eusa_pray: :pope:

DarthRider

01-30-2009, 09:54 AM

What's the price on the new, white R1200R?

Sir Limpsalot

02-02-2009, 02:19 PM

What's the price on the new, white R1200R?

Add the date to your cell phone number, then double it.

Si.

AZBMWRIDER

02-02-2009, 02:36 PM

What's the price on the new, white R1200R?

2009 BMW R 1200 R

MSRP. $12600
Tax. $1100
DOC Fees. $495

$14195

http://motorrad-keiyo.blogzine.jp/blog/images/2008/08/22/r1200r_1.jpg

DarthRider

02-02-2009, 03:15 PM

Thanks Mike...that doc fee is rape.

Deans BMW

02-02-2009, 03:19 PM

Their doc fees are outrageous and total BS. The sales tax can be solved with a one way trip ticket, you then pay your local sales tax.

As an FYI, doc fees are nothing more than added profit for both car and M/C dealerships, I absolutely refuse to pay it and if they want the business, they work it out somehow.

As an added comment, I am not a big fan of Victory even though I bought my Blue R1150R there back in '02, payed dead nuts cost on the bike all accessories and a case of BMW oil plus a bunch of oil filters.

Jaythro

02-03-2009, 03:24 AM

Jey Baldur You would think these Heathens would take their penny anny discussions somewhere else and let us sort this bike

Could you list what you have done ?? Or PM it to me before the heathens rush in again:pot::pot::pot:

jamming

02-03-2009, 06:54 AM

Baldur, we need to do a leak down /differential pressure test. That will tell us if there is a leak, and allow us to find it. I have what we need to do this. Call me or PM me. Do you have shop air at your house? If not I have a small compresser I could bring in the truck

IMO, what is happening is that you are running far to lean, duh right. Looks like the fuel pressure is ok.

Sir Limpsalot

02-03-2009, 02:58 PM

Go Rog! It's about time he got that bloody thing sorted out. And about time we got to find out what's been causing it..

Si.

Capt. Blackadder

02-03-2009, 10:27 PM

Perhaps you could post a few photos as you go? Where and how you plumb the gauge in, that sort of thing. I, for one, would be very interested.

This is how I ended up hooking it in:

http://members.cox.net/baldur/R1150R/FuelPressureGauge.jpg

What we have here is a Summit Racing gauge screwed into a T-fitting, then hooked up in line via quick disconnects to the fuel supply hose. Initially I wanted to mount the gauge permanently but since I wasn't entirely sure which hose was the supply side, I decided on the quick disconnect mounting method. In addition, things are very tight in that area and I just couldn't find a permanent mounting spot that was good enough. Besides, this way I can bring another useful tool to Tech days! :thumb:

As you can see in the photo it reads about 10psi. By the time I took this photo it had been a couple of days since the bike ran last. I found that kind of interesting, that it would still hold a good bit of pressure after two days.

BobFV1

02-04-2009, 05:45 AM

Don't know if this helps (didn't read the whole thread) but several years back when I licensed an old Gold Wing in AZ I had to get it emission tested and the tech told me not to use the side stand - to hold the bike up in the riding position while he checked both tailpipes - that 20-something old pig passed just fine.

Sir Limpsalot

02-04-2009, 06:08 AM

Bob, that old 'Wing had carbs. When leant on the side stand the fuel level in the float bowls will alter slightly, which could affect the mixture. The injected Beemer wouldn't be affected in the same way.

Baldur's problem is that since he did the top end rebuild following his valve problems the bike hasn't been quite right, despite all the usual checks coming up blank. It now seems that it's running very weak (lean) so the plot thickens..

Si.

BobFV1

02-04-2009, 06:22 AM

it's running very weak (lean) so the plot thickens..

Si.

I see, said the blind man :)

Capt. Blackadder

02-04-2009, 09:17 AM

Could you list what you have done?

Leakdown test: 14% leakage on right cylinder, 17-18% on the left, with only 12psi incoming pressure though (inexpensive Harbor Freight gauge, don't know if that's accurate enough)
Compression: around 190psi both sides
No intake or exhaust leaks that I have found...yet
Heads rebuilt by San Jose BMW
Installed a set of low-mileage throttle bodies, which feel much tighter, throttle shaft to shaft bore
Air intake runners, O-rings look OK
New coil, spark plug wires, and three or four sets of new spark plugs
No interference with throttle body cams
New Bowden box plus throttle cables, fully seated
Cam sprocket arrows are horizontal when motor is locked at TDC
Valve adjustments
TB syncs with both CarbMate and homebuilt manometer
Vacuum ports on TBs plugged with rubber caps, no difference
Injectors professionally cleaned by Witchhunter, within 0.9% of one another
New fuel filter, air filter
New throttle position sensor
New crankcase breather hose
Oil temp and incoming air temp sensors test OK
Fuel pressure tests OK
All fuses and relays OK
Slight Hall sensor adjustments have no effect
SeaFoam in tank

Capt. Blackadder

02-04-2009, 09:19 AM

Baldur, we need to do a leak down /differential pressure test. That will tell us if there is a leak, and allow us to find it. I have what we need to do this. Call me or PM me. Do you have shop air at your house? If not I have a small compresser I could bring in the truck.

Thanks, bubba... I've done leak-down and compression tests but it's possible that the gauges aren't accurate enough. I have a 3 gallon pancake compressor now.

AZBMWRIDER

02-04-2009, 10:46 AM

Leakdown test: 14% leakage on right cylinder, 17-18% on the left, with only 12psi incoming pressure though (inexpensive Harbor Freight gauge, don't know if that's accurate enough)
Compression: around 190psi both sides
No intake or exhaust leaks that I have found...yet
Heads rebuilt by San Jose BMW
Installed a set of low-mileage throttle bodies, which feel much tighter, throttle shaft to shaft bore
Air intake runners, O-rings look OK
New coil, spark plug wires, and three or four sets of new spark plugs
No interference with throttle body cams
New Bowden box plus throttle cables, fully seated
Cam sprocket arrows are horizontal when motor is locked at TDC
Valve adjustments
TB syncs with both CarbMate and homebuilt manometer
Vacuum ports on TBs plugged with rubber caps, no difference
Injectors professionally cleaned by Witchhunter, within 0.9% of one another
New fuel filter, air filter
New throttle position sensor
New crankcase breather hose
Oil temp and incoming air temp sensors test OK
Fuel pressure tests OK
All fuses and relays OK
Slight Hall sensor adjustments have no effect
SeaFoam in tank

Did you try to run a higher octane fuel.?

"Valero's 100 octane"

.

GPM

02-04-2009, 10:51 AM

Higher octane fuel isn't going to have any effect unless you're getting detonation under load.

Here's a stupid question (haven't taken the time to read back through the whole thread), have you taken the bike to a dealer to have them check for stored codes? Also, to have them load the latest software tune for the ECU.

Capt. Blackadder

02-04-2009, 01:23 PM

Did you try to run a higher octane fuel.?

"Valero's 100 octane"

At $5-$8 per gallon, I'm not overly tempted. Besides, it used to run just fine on my usual Chevron 91.

Capt. Blackadder

02-04-2009, 01:26 PM

Here's a stupid question (haven't taken the time to read back through the whole thread), have you taken the bike to a dealer to have them check for stored codes? Also, to have them load the latest software tune for the ECU.
I took the bike in last fall, and the only code stored then was one for a bad TPS. I suspect that one might have been my fault even... I had been messing around with TPS settings and I don't recall if I pulled fuse 5 to clear things afterwards.

I didn't know you could flash the Motronic 2.4 like you can with the newer bikes... you sure about that?

GPM

02-04-2009, 02:44 PM

I didn't know you could flash the Motronic 2.4 like you can with the newer bikes... you sure about that?

Nope. Maybe the unit itself is faulty. No idea how you'd tell though....

Deans BMW

02-04-2009, 06:57 PM

Baldur, let Roger play with it a bit.

jamming

02-04-2009, 07:22 PM

Did you try to run a higher octane fuel.?

"Valero's 100 octane"

.

Octane has no bearing on the air/fuel ratio.

Baldur, we need to talk, I'm REALLY interested in the slightly used throttle bodies you put on. I was not aware you did that. When did you do that, before or after the head replacement. Where did you get them? From what model did they say they were on? Did you replace the intake boots? I have a lot of questions about the replacements. I'd like to have the model and serial # of the originals and the replacements. A call to Bing will be in order(the manufacturer). With the serial #, they can tell me what orifice is in the TB. Too small an orifice will cause a lean condition. Although the model # may match AND they might even have come off the same model bike, the orifice can be different.

Why you ask????

A throttle body in effect is an electronically controlled carburetor. It uses differential pressure to "meter" the fuel/air mixture into the intake side where it is always available. The amount of the fuel/air charge drawn into the cylinder is regulated by the duration of the valve lift. ANY fresh air leak in the TB or the intake side or head downwind of the TB will cause a lean condition. Have you started the bike and dribbled liquid WD-40? Don't use a spray can. Marvel Mystery oil will work as well. Dribble it around the head, around the TB intake boots the TB shaft. The bike will die a little with the oil AND puff smoke. With the WD it will idle up.

Also, there are rebuild kits avialable from Bing from the TB's. No reason to ever replace them unless they are unservicable due to a crash or damage.

AZBMWRIDER

02-04-2009, 08:11 PM

Believe me when I say that I'm not a Technician, but why don't you put your bike on a dyno plugged into some type of computer and run the piss out of it...

Read the info from the dyno test and see WTF is wrong with it.

If you see that the Fuel/Air Mixture or ECU needs to be tweaked, then tweak it.

There has to be a program that will allow you to do that.

By the way, SDL BMW has a Dyno.

AZBMWRIDER

02-04-2009, 10:18 PM

Baldur, would one of these help find the problem.?

GS-911
http://www.gs911usa.com/ (http://www.gs911usa.com/)

.

Capt. Blackadder

02-04-2009, 11:28 PM

Baldur, we need to talk, I'm REALLY interested in the slightly used throttle bodies you put on. I was not aware you did that. When did you do that, before or after the head replacement. Where did you get them? From what model did they say they were on? Did you replace the intake boots? I have a lot of questions about the replacements. I'd like to have the model and serial # of the originals and the replacements.

I did that several months after the head replacement, sometime last fall. These low-mileage TBs showed up on eBay, got them from Glendale actually. Originally mounted to either an R model or an RT, they are Bing 75/45/109 and 110, the same models as the originals. Can't find any serial numbers. These TBs feel tighter around the butterfly shafts, and I got them because I thought I might have worn out the original TBs. You see, 99% of my riding is in town, so lots of throttle movement in addition to serious heat. It's a moot point though, because these "new" TBs did nothing for the lean-running condition. I've been through two or three sets of new intake boots since I bought the bike.

Have you started the bike and dribbled liquid WD-40? Don't use a spray can. Marvel Mystery oil will work as well. Dribble it around the head, around the TB intake boots the TB shaft. The bike will die a little with the oil AND puff smoke. With the WD it will idle up.

I've only sprayed WD-40, couldn't tell a lick of difference. I've also tried soaking the joints with clean water and soapy water, and I've dribbled motor oil on them.

Also, there are rebuild kits available from Bing from the TBs. No reason to ever replace them unless they are unserviceable due to a crash or damage.
I know, I took the option of replacing them instead since I wasn't sure about the condition of the original TB butterfly shaft bushings. If the bushings are shot, a rebuild kit doesn't do much.

I'm quickly running out of things to test or replace on this bike. I hope it isn't ruined piston rings or an out-of-round cylinder, but that's what it's starting to point to. There's just nothing else left. Wouldn't that be something... right around the mileage this vaunted Boxer motor is supposed to be all smoothing out and be properly run in, it falls apart like the Bluesmobile at the end of the movie.

Capt. Blackadder

02-04-2009, 11:44 PM

Believe me when I say that I'm not a Technician, but why don't you put your bike on a dyno plugged into some type of computer and run the piss out of it?

It's tempting, believe you me, to just hold it WFO and hope for the best... but I have this sneaking suspicion that it would simply eat another exhaust valve or two.

Capt. Blackadder

02-04-2009, 11:46 PM

Baldur, would one of these help find the problem?

GS-911
http://www.gs911usa.com/ (http://www.gs911usa.com/)

Maybe, maybe not. I hear good things about them, and I'll probably order one when I get employed again.

Sir Limpsalot

02-05-2009, 03:52 AM

I hope it isn't ruined piston rings or an out-of-round cylinder, but that's what it's starting to point to.

Bad rings won't make it run weak. Anyway you have 190psi both sides on your compression test, you wouldn't get that with poor rings..

You've checked, and double checked, all the mechanical things so it's starting to look like electrics surely? In my experience ECU's are very reliable and tend to get blamed for faults that are really wiring or earth (ground) related. If it was me (and I'm glad it's not!) I would start looking very closely at all the ECU connections/wiring/earths.

Do you have a friend with an 1150R who would let you borrow his ECU for diagnostic purposes?

Have a word with Anton. He's a busy man but if you PM him I'm sure he'll advise you. After all, he may have come accross this fault before.

Don't despair old boy, we'll get there in the end!
Si.

Capt. Blackadder

02-07-2009, 06:13 PM

You've checked, and double checked, all the mechanical things so it's starting to look like electrics surely? In my experience ECUs are very reliable and tend to get blamed for faults that are really wiring or earth (ground) related. If it was me (and I'm glad it's not!) I would start looking very closely at all the ECU connections/wiring/earths.

I took the tank off today and started cleaning ground connections, the battery hookup, the ECU connector, the alternator connectors, and performed a current draw test as well just for good measure. Didn't find any corroded connections, at least nothing obvious. The current draw was about 3.62 mA total, which broke down like this:

Clock: 2.23 mA
Motronic: 1.11 mA
SignalMinder: 0.28 mA (the original turn signal module draws 0.05 mA)

The Clymer manual states that the maximum current draw must be 2.0 mA or less, but I don't know if that's accurate. With the clock and Motronic fuses out and the SignalMinder module disconnected, there was zero current draw, so there is no short, at least not outside of those three circuits.

So... anyone familiar enough with current draw figures on an R1150R to say whether these are excessive?

On a different note: I did a spark test on both plugs and it seemed to me that the successive sparks were of different intensity. They looked whitish-blue, not orange, but they did seem to be of different "size." Don't know if that is significant or not.

Sir Limpsalot

02-09-2009, 02:29 AM

On a different note: I did a spark test on both plugs and it seemed to me that the successive sparks were of different intensity. They looked whitish-blue, not orange, but they did seem to be of different "size." Don't know if that is significant or not.

I doubt it. If your problem was a weak spark you'd have to opposite effect to what you have now. That is to say you'd be running rich as the poor spark would fail to ignite the fuel fully. What you have is either too little fuel or too much air. You've eliminated the possibility of air leaks so it has to be that, for whatever reason, not enough fuel is being injected.

I've always found it helpful to "split things down" like this. To function properly an engine needs to be (a) mechanically sound. Have (b) good fuel supply and (c) correct management.

(a) Means not having excessive wear and be in good tune (valve adjustment and so on), without air leaks etc.

(b) Refers to the fuel supply, the fuel pump (and it's wiring, fuse and relay), the fuel lines, filter, injectors and regulator.

(c) The electronic management includes the ECU itself, it's sensors and wiring.

From what you've told us you have (a) and (b) well covered. That leaves us (c).

The ECU merely runs pre-determined programs (called MAPS). That is to say, if the temperature is "x" the revs are "y" and the throttle is opened "z" then the ECU will follow it's MAP and open the injectors and time the spark accordingly.

The most common failure on the cars I've spent the last 20 years working on has been the one part you don't have.. The coolant temperature sensor. To illustrate my point, if the CTS tells the ECU the engine is hot when it is in fact cold, then the ECU will fail to alter the injection duration to enrichen the mixture. Resulting in a "non-starting" situation through a weak mixture. Conversely if the CTS tell the ECU the engine is colder than it really is then the ECU will respond with too rich a mixture, resulting in a "non-start" due to over-fuelling.

I believe your fault to be either one of the sensors is sending incorrect info to the ECU which is then responding, or that the sensors are sending the correct info and the ECU is failing to interpret that info.

I don't have a lot of experience with the Motronic system on our beemers, but the principles are the same. Trust me.

More later..
Si.

Sir Limpsalot

02-09-2009, 01:52 PM

Right, where were we? Oh yes. The final sensor in the chain, and the one I suspect is at fault, is the lambda sensor. This reads the amount of oxygen in the exhaust gasses and sends the info back to the ECU, which "trims" the mixture strength accordingly. It doesn't hold a steady reading, as might be hoped, but go's from too rich to too weak and back again. The mean average should be 14.75 to 1.

Now, if the lambda sensor fails to "see" the oxgen in the exhaust gas it will send back the info that the mixture is too rich. The ECU will respond by trimming it to full lean. You see where I'm going with this, I'm sure.

The operation of the sensor can be fairly easily checked using a digital multimeter. With the engine warmed to normal operating temperature connect the positive probe of the meter to the signal wire from the sensor. The earth probe should go onto the best earth you can find. Set the scale to "DC" Volts and allow the engine to idle. If the sensor is working correctly the reading will continually fluctuate between 0.01V (too weak) and 0.08V (too rich). If the reading stays at, or near, 0.08V then the sensor has failed and the ECU is merely responding to the info it's being given.

It should only take a few minutes to do the check. Give it a try.

Cheers,
Si.

DarthRider

02-09-2009, 02:05 PM

So, Sir Simon...you are not just another pretty face then?

Sir Limpsalot

02-09-2009, 02:22 PM

So, Sir Simon...you are not just another pretty face then?

According to Lady Linda I'm not even a pretty face. :icon_redface:

Si.

jamming

02-09-2009, 06:37 PM

SI, had some conversations with Baldur. I'm thinking along the same lines, however, the O2 sensor has been replaced, which until its tested means nothing...so...I'm thinking a E-911 diagnostic tool so we can see the sensor info in real time. If the sensor info is correct, the ECU is bad.

There was a power commander installed (not now), which richened up the mixture in the "surge" zone. Balur and myself are wondering if it "took out" the ECU. Won't know until the diagnostic is done.

GPM

02-09-2009, 07:42 PM

Rog,

FWIW, I had Power Commanders on both my K1200RS and my GS. The PC is after the ECU and there is no backward communication. If it was installed and functioning properly I seriously doubt it could have harmed the ECU.

Sir Limpsalot

02-10-2009, 02:46 AM

Honestly Rog, a decent digital (analogue types respond too slowly) multimeter is all you need to test the sensor. You really don't need to spend the extra dosh on an E-911. Of course, if someone you know has one they'll lend you??

About a year ago we had a whole load of problems with lambda sensors. One of the fuel companies screwed up bigtime with extra silicone in their petrol. The silicone was coating the lambda probes and stopping them "seeing" the oxygen. Result? Thousands of cars running like turds. Manufacturers were running out of sensors due to the unexpected demands. Problems are still surfacing now. I don't often miss carburettors, but..

Cheers!
Si.

Capt. Blackadder

02-10-2009, 06:27 AM

Right then,

First of all, a loud and boisterous "Cheers mate!" to all who have taken the time to offer advice and tech tidbits here, with special thanks to the right honorable Sir Limpsalot for the detailed write-ups. With these and some help from Wikipedia (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Oxygen_sensor) I now understand the fundamentals of the O2-sensor controlled fueling system.

In fact, I was inspired enough to rig up an O2 sensor test with the engine running:

http://members.cox.net/baldur/R1150R/O2SensorTest.jpg

Armed with my trusty DVM I tested two out of four wires, as I wasn't quite sure which one was the correct signal wire to test. Two wires are for the O2 sensor's heating element, easily recognized and ignored for the purposes of this test.

After the motor warmed up the grey wire from the sensor produced voltages swinging from 0.124 - 0.163V. The black wire produced voltages swinging from 0.198 - 1.0V. Evidently the black wire is the correct one then, I assume, and judging from the results it is out of range. The sensor did swing back and forth as expected, never dwelling more than a couple of seconds at either extreme, but seeing as it should be reporting voltages ranging from 0.2V to 0.8V, those 1.0V readings indicate that the O2 sensor is reporting a very rich mixture being present, prompting the ECU to lean it out heavily. This is supported by the fact that holding the throttle at a steady 2,500 RPM, the RPMs will fluctuate by about 300-400, dropping for a few seconds and then recovering. This is similar to turning the mixture knob in an airplane too far, leaning the mixture out too much so the RPMs drop. Turning the knob back a bit picks the RPMs up again. Running with the O2 sensor disconnected, this RPM fluctuation does not occur, and the exhaust stream feels quite a bit cooler on the palm of my hand.

Interestingly enough, disconnecting the O2 sensor did not fix the intermittent misfire, so it would appear that the bike has at least two different issues. But, progress has been made! :thumb:

Now I need to decide whether to install a new O2 sensor or try the Power Commander setup again hoping that its wide-band sensor is OK.

GPM

02-10-2009, 08:47 AM

When you say the Power Commander's wide band sensor, did you install a second O2 sensor (the wide band version)? Unless you installed a second bung and sensor, you will not be getting wide band readings from your standard O2 sensor.

From what you've seen, I would replace the O2 sensor. For $50 or so you could take the bike to a dyno and get a full A/F reading. For about twice that (guessing here) you could take it to a Power Commander dyno tuning center and get a custom map for your bike at the same time.

Capt. Blackadder

02-10-2009, 10:29 AM

When you say the Power Commander's wide band sensor, did you install a second O2 sensor (the wide band version)? Unless you installed a second bung and sensor, you will not be getting wide band readings from your standard O2 sensor.

Yes, when the Power Commander was installed, I also installed the wide-band O2 sensor that came with it. The O2 sensor that is installed now is the original narrow-band one that came with the bike.

Sir Limpsalot

02-11-2009, 02:04 AM

Baldur, seems like we're getting there :). Sometimes you can't see the forest because the trees get in the way.. Motors can be a lot like that!

Cheers,
Si.

AZBMWRIDER

02-11-2009, 06:20 AM

From what you've seen, I would replace the O2 sensor. For $50 or so you could take the bike to a dyno and get a full A/F reading. For about twice that (guessing here) you could take it to a Power Commander dyno tuning center and get a custom map for your bike at the same time.

Dyno Tuning Center..!

Plug it in and run the bike to see what's wrong with it...

Scottsdale BMW Motorcycle has a Dyno...

GPM

02-11-2009, 08:42 AM

We've got a box that reads data from the wideband O2 sensor on our race car. What kind of connector is there between the wideband O2 and the Power Commander? Maybe we could pull the box and hook it up to your bike.

The car's sitting in the garage (near Tatum and Shea) waiting for a new motor for another week or two. Let me know if you'd like to take a shot at hooking it up.

Capt. Blackadder

02-19-2009, 11:30 AM

Well, I installed the Power Commander and the wideband O2 sensor again. This sensor appears OK because according to the Power Commander software the bike is holding the selected air/fuel ratio (13.8) quite well and other data is coming in correctly as well. Installing the PC took care of the RPM fluctuation, so a bit more progress there.

However, there is still that annoying intermittent hesitation or hunting, like there is occasional fuel starvation or spark trouble. Even richening the bike up as far as the A/F ratio would go (13.0) had no apparent effect on that. I wonder if the Hall sensor needs to be checked out? I've read reports (http://www.advrider.com/forums/showpost.php?p=960371&postcount=35) that some of them sometimes put out a lower voltage signal than what the ECU is expecting.

We've got a box that reads data from the wideband O2 sensor on our race car. What kind of connector is there between the wideband O2 and the Power Commander? Maybe we could pull the box and hook it up to your bike.

The car's sitting in the garage (near Tatum and Shea) waiting for a new motor for another week or two. Let me know if you'd like to take a shot at hooking it up.

Thanks for the offer, Harry. Would this box report anything else besides the A/F ratio? The plug, by the way, looks like this:

http://members.cox.net/baldur/R1150R/WidebandO2plug.jpg

Capt. Blackadder

02-21-2009, 11:17 PM

I took the tank off again and took some readings.

Hall sensor: The Motronic is supplying a steady 11.8V to the Hall sensor and the sensor ground is good. Both the TDC and BDC sensors are sending back about 11.35V on their respective signal wires. Triggering off they both go down to about 75mV and triggering on they go right back up to 11.35V. I also hear a relay click when they trigger on.
Coil: The Motronic is delivering a steady 12V to the coil. The coil itself and the spark plug wires are less than six months old.
Battery/alternator: With the bike off, the battery measures about 12.75V. Bike running, alternator kicked in, it measures around 13.8V.
Grounds: The transmission case ground, the left TB ground, and the Motronic ground are clean and tight.
Relays/fuses: All appear to be fine.
Oil pressure switch: Working.
Oil temp/air temp sensors: Working.
TPS: The Motronic is supplying a steady 5V and the TPS itself is only a few months old. Set to 385mV at warm idle.
Spark plugs: Replaced several times.
Electrical shorts: None detected.

I dunno... electrically, the bike appears fine, unless I missed something. I'm leaning back towards a mechanical issue.

Sir Limpsalot

02-24-2009, 05:10 AM

It doesn't sound mechanical to me. Intermittent problems are always a bastard anyway, but you need to think... "How can a mechanical problem come and go?" Let's say you have a(nother) valve problem, how can a valve seal and then not, and then seal again and so on? Generally speaking mechanical things either work, or they don't.

My guess is that the spark is being "lost".

There are available some neat little neon HT testers, that fit between the HT leads and the spark plugs, they light up as the HT passes through them. They, quite literally, allow you to "see" the spark that the plug is getting.

They are really cheap and (over here anyway) readily available. I would normally post some photo's but I'm writing this from bed on a borrowed lap top, following my recent surgery.

If you have trouble finding some, PM me. I'll send you a couple over. They will show you, one way or the other exactly what is going on with the HT side of things.

Don't despair Baldur, dear boy. We'll find that forest soon, soon as we get through some of these trees..

Si. (Sir Limpsalittlelessnow).

Capt. Blackadder

03-08-2009, 11:38 AM

You know, this bike just might be fixed, finally. I bought a new O2 sensor for the Power Commander and installed it, and went for a ride. The bike felt a bit better initially, but a few miles after tanking up all sorts of problems suddenly cropped up. The motor bucked and surged violently, then suddenly cleared right up, then died outright. "Great..." I thought, "...that's all I need, a tankful of crap on top of everything else."

Made it home on one cylinder and started looking things over. With the help of my visiting father-in-law, who just happens to be an electrician with decades of experience, we located the problem: a too-wide contact inside the right cylinder injector connector. Intermittent injector signals apparently do nothing to improve a motor's running... who knew? :icon_mrgreen:

The post-fix ride was the smoothest in over a year. I will now leave this bike alone for a while, i.e. take nothing apart and just ride it, to see if it stays fixed! :thumb: