Riding footware - and why? Calling Bones

[Acacia]

My buddy, Dick described in another thread several weeks ago, had a get off on a ride we were on.

At first it was a dislocated left ankle. Then a crack in the right ankle and knee. Now several weeks later and countless films, the Drs have decided that the left dislocated ankle was also broken, a piece of bone detached and the right ankle was more than a crack. He now has to have, this Wed, surgery to both feet and they are going to plate and pin both ankles.

This has raised several questions. What footware is appropriate for riding and why? Dick had above the ankle boots on. There is research and commentary about how helmets protect - but boots?

I am not interested in fashion statements and/or how comfortable, but some empirical research that gives pragmatic advice about the actual safety the boots offer and why. Any one know?

I am aware that ski boots have protected - and as they have improved the ankle support, the breaks etc have moved up the leg.

Bones - what does your experience indicate?

[Boxerboy]

Some local Vic., Oz research.

http://www.monash.edu.au/muarc/reports/atsb174.html

Some other...

http://www.sma.org.sg/smj/4311/4311a4.pdf

[HiOSilver]

I remember the MSF instructor say they required boots for all their course sbecause ankle and foot injuries are some of the most common injuries in motorcycle accidents.

I'm anxious to hear what Bones has to say and what kind of recommendations the folks here have. I wear Sidi airflow style boots that don't seem to have a lot of rigidity or support. Am I making too much of a compromise for comfort? :confused:

[R4R&R]

My Alpinestar boots have a hard insert around the ankle area. I guess that's ankle-armor?

[Bones]

Interesting you should ask, and specifically want my input (which I am happy to render).

First, as many of you may know, I am a committed armoured gear freak. I just like the feel of real gear and don't feel as comfortable riding without it. So your statement about not worrying about esthetics fits fine for this discussion.


1. Indeed, among the things that I see most riders devoting the least attention to in terms of protective gear is foot wear. Theoretically, it is more important than protective pants, in that there are a greater number of foot/ankle/ lower leg injuries than other lower extremity injuries.

As with impact injuries in other areas of the body, you can decrease the acuity of the focal injury IF you can spread out the force over a larger area of impact. If a focal "hit" is a given force in a 5 square inch area, BUT you can distribute that same force over a 2 sqare foot area, the impact in any one area becomes much, much less and may change a fracture to a bruise. Other factors include changing the speed at which that force is applied to underlying anatomy. That is over simplified, but reasonably accurate. Quite simply, that is why football players wear shoulder pads. It is also why helmets are designed with a hard outer shell and deformable liner. That design distributes force over the widest area and also slows down the deceleration of your head (and brain) during a crash.

Regarding footwear: sneakers are worthless because they not only don't cover the ankle, but do nothing to distribute force over a wider area. They may offer a little more protection from abrasion than sandles, but not a lot.

Leather is better for abrasion resistance than synthetic leathers (like Lorica that Sidi uses). The thicker the leather, obviously, the better.

A boot sole that is crush proof from lateral force can offer a lot of foot protection. Most MC boots do offer that advantage.

The higher the boot goes, the higher up you have abrasion protection. If the boot is armored including the shin, the wider distrubution you have of the force applied during a crash.

Armor in boots: other than race style boots, not that many touring style boots offer hard armor. But, some do if you look for them. My current favorite boot is the Vendramini Marathon boot. It has hard protection at the ankle areas, shin region and toe box. It has a crush "proof" sole (nothing is really crush proof, but you get the idea). They are as comfortable as anything I have worn and reasonably water proof (nothing is really water proof either, at least where I ride). I have a pair of Sidi on Road Sympatex boots that are great, too, but have no hard armor. I used them for a two seasons before getting the Vendraminis. I used Sidi Vertigo Corsa boots for track riding and they are the real deal. I am 100% certain they kept me from having an ankle fracture or near fracture during a get off last season. I barely had a bruise on my ankle, but the side supports took a beating.

The problem with race boots for real world riding (even if you don't care about looking ridiculous) is that they just aren't comfortable for walking any distance, they aren't at all weather protective and they aren't really durable for real world riding and wear and tear of roaming around off the bike.

Everything is a bit of a compromise. Really, riding with ski boots on would be most protective, but you would have a hell of a time shifting and enjoying the ride.

So, in my opinion, if you don't care about visuals, then a fully armored tourning boot (like the Vendramini Marathon) is the way to go, for real world riding. I ride with those most of the time. I will admit, however, I do have a pair of Cruiserworks engineering style boots that will get worn once in a while. They are fine for abrasion resistance, foot protection and weather issues, but have no armor, and thus, not much ankle or shin protection other than for abrasion. They are so comfortable to walk in and look nice, too. But if I was going out for a spirited ride or trip, I would use the Vendraminis.

2. Now, why has the diagnosis of your friend's injuries "evolved" over time? It is NOT necessarily because a doctor overlooked something. Many, many times with fractures, the x ray findings over a couple of weeks will reveal things not seem immediately after injury, ESPECIALLY in non displaced fractures.

What happens is that an inflammatory response starts immediately upon injury. This jump starts the healing process, believe it or not. Part of that process is that some dimineralization of bone at the edges of the fracture occurs as the body lays down osteoid (new bone) and as a result, the fracture can be more easily seen after this happens. Often, that is a couple of weeks later. Also, some "hairline" fractures can become non hairline with movement of fractured segments away from each other over a couple of weeks. This is why the orthopedic surgeons will often order follow up xrays even if it seems like things are going well.

The "pins and plates and screws" accomplish a couple of things that are important for bones to heal:
a. approximation (getting bony edges close to each other).
b. stabilization (keeping movement across the fracture line from occuring).

If they have suggested surgery now, after a few weeks, there may be a few reasons. One of the most likely reasons is that they don't want things healing in the wrong orientation (that is called a malunion). The window of opportunity to address that is not forever. Also, if some of the fractures are not well approximated, they may heal in a way that prevents full remineralization (called a nonunion or fibrous union). For bones that are weight bearing, that is a real problem because bones are supposed to be solid structures.

I hope that information helps. If not, or if I can explain things any better, let me know. I would be happy to provide more info. in greater detail if you are interested.

Jeff

[Bones]

..... a couple of other comments:

The studies posted by Boxerboy show two very different things in terms of frequency of facial injuries.........so be careful about reading summaries of studies. You really have to look at how the studies were done and how to interpret the data. For example, in the first study posted, one of the risk factors was not owning the motorcycle that was crashed. Does that mean that it is inherently safer to own the motorcycle you ride? Well....perhaps. But if you look at the other data, one may well conclude (as I did) that the borrowed bike is more likely to be crashed by the highest risk category RIDER: the under 25 year old, single male who has likely imbibed. You get the idea.

Also, it has been my experience that while a relatively small OVERALL percentage of MC crashes result in facial injuries the MAJORITY of those that have the helmet hit will have it hit in the facial area. This has been studied. In the USA, it may be as much as 75% of crashes with helmet damage have facial hits. So.....I am clearly a full face helmet wearer, all the time.


Jeff

[DarthRider]

Great stuff!

Dave

[Acacia]

Wonderfull - thank you, Bones!

Dick is probably moving into surgery as I write.

You have explained much of what he, his wife and I were talking to last night as we have reviewed the events of this drama. His Dr's were concerned, it appears, about the possibility of arthritus in those joints too. They appear also to be going to look at the ligaments - which take longer to heal than bone. Having both ankles out of commission has really 'grounded' him. A wheel chair, bed, special toilet rotation.

There are prescriptive compliance tests for helmet protection coverage. I am still looking for similar possible published studies that may have been conducted with regard to boots. Dick's experience has certainly highlighted an area I had not given enough thought to. I do wear what I could only describe as the sturdiest above the ankle store boots I could find. Fine for walking, but do not allow much other foot bending - hence my concern.

Ever since I had a get off in 1969 at about 60mph and landed hands first on black top, I have use sturdy leather gloves too. Another topic of discussion.

I agree with your helmet conclusions and recall a previous discussion on another board where we were in agreement. Full face, well fitted and the best one can afford.

Sounds like we all need to keep digging to add to the 'common' safety knowledge base here.

[Tipstall]

Bones,

Great information. Were can you get Vendramini boots? I found Bikerworld may have them, (according to their website). I'm not looking for a deal, just want to try them on to find the best size for me. Looks like I may have to hope for the best and just order them.

Ken

[Boxerboy]

Bones , you've got more boots than Imelda Marcos had shoes!:)

[DarthRider]

When I crashed my 50R 5 years ago I went over the bars, landed on my hands, left arm & knees & skidded face down on brick pavers. Just as I stopped sliding, the bike came along (up on its wheels) and ran over me, sort of a side-swipe, grinding, huddle-down, scraping deal. As it was starting to roll me up under the left side I thought I was going to get burned so I PUSHED the bike hard to the right to get it away from me.
When I was doing the "post mortem" of the wreck I found that both boots had been cut along the sides from heel to toe, one of them on both sides. It looked like someone had cut them with a boxcutter. I'm sure it was the side stand and center stands that got me.
My feet were completely untouched, not even a scrape or bruise, one minor sprained ankle...wish I could say that about everything else.
Anyway, one more endorsement for protective footgear. The boots I had on were actually sort of a hiking type boot made by Redwing, with double layers of thick leather.

[socalrob]

Bones,

Great info as always. I'm with you, looking for the most protection in a boot I can wear all the time. Those Vendramini Marathon boots look very good, maybe just a bit more protection than the Dianese touring boots I picked up recently. I don't recall the exact model, but they ran about $300 or a little less. They are comfortable (at least for me) enough to wear 12 hour a day, yet have nice shin & ankle armour, nice stiff boxes for the toe & heal, and very nice non slip soles (almost look like sport tires).

I've been buying Dianese stuff mainly because the corporate store is near my condo in Newport Beach, & they always have a wide selection of stuff. Their back protectors are a notch or two above the BMW stuff. I recently also picked up Dianese's top of the line textile jacket (pricy at about $600) that has double armour in the shoulders and has very nice elbow, arm & back armour. Its also warm, which helps on these LA mornings of low 40's, freezing to me.

Anybody from LA, Orange, or San Diego, making a trip to the Dianese store in Newport Beach is worth the trip. They have the biggest selection of true quality stuff I've seen, albet expensive.

[geechie]

A bit of annecdotal data: I have a close friend with whom I used to ride (bicycles). This guy was(is) tough as 20d nails, and a very strong rider. He was also a left leg BK amputee. Lost it in a motorcycle accident. He was not wearing adequate footgear and that may well have been the difference.

Study number two: When I got launched off my R last year, I landed smack on my face... which you'll be happy to know is as pretty as ever. I did, however have to replace the shield.

George

[DarthRider]

"...I landed smack on my face... which you'll be happy to know is as pretty as ever..."

Talk to Bones, maybe you could get a Cafe discount on a little "work"!

Dave

[Sir Limpsalot]

A while ago, in a far off Galaxy (actually no, it was on the "other" site we used to go to) I said that I was looking for......... "The Informed opinion of experts". Well, we sure get that here. :eusa_clap:
Si

[supermotoC]

for the most protective boot (that you can still walk/ride in), look no further:

http://www.daytona.de/english/boots_e/boots.html

choose the Security Evo or Evo sports, and you're wearing what Kenny Roberts helped develop.

I wear the "Winner' and the "Journey XCR" - top notch in every way.
Not cheap, but neither is surgery.

[Bones]

Tip,
Indeed, Bikerworld is who I ordered my boots through. It is kind of like going through Motonation to order Sidi boots.

Boxer,
"Kind of like Imelda Marcos....." yes, you don't know the half of it!

Rob,
Dianese gear is great if you can get your hands on it. Out here on the East Coast, it is tough to find. The fact that you have a bricks and mortar place to actually see the stuff in person is great. Then again, you also have 11 months a year of riding......and 12 lanes of traffic to get anywhere.

Super,
Are those Daytona boots british? I ask because I have a Brit friend who wears them at the track. They are....."colorful" but seem like nice boots. I have never checked them out up close.


Glad I was able to provide some meaningful information.

Jeff

[Sir Limpsalot]

Those "Daytona" boots are in fact German. They have the very best reputation over here, but do come cheaper than surgery. Not by much, though.
My friend Geoff thought he would "beat the system" by buying some in Germany when he was passing though. After making this huge detour, getting lost in a strange city etc he was devastated to find that the Erics pay as much for them as we do.
Mind you after several hours in Scottish rain last spring he had completely dry feet. My "Triumph" boots leaked like bastards, which was the cause of much sulking and bad temper on my part!
Si.

[Acacia]

Simon D,
Experts here? Probably more passionate (That gets people banned), open, enquiring minded, willing to listen and contribute without one-upmanship, would be closer.

If I am understanding the discussion so far - we have anecdotal and general information that amounts to - boots, above the ankle and as stiff as possible are called for.

There must be some studies somewhere that look at some of the issues and variables involved in more detail that we have yet to scratch up.

[Bones]

Acacia,

I could go into the physics, mechanical engineering principles, and physiology of both soft tissue and bone injury, along with the details of healing of each of those types of tissues. I just left it as a more basic description, NOT because anyone here couldn't understand the other stuff, but because I didn't think most would be interested in quite that much detail.

Jeff

[Acacia]

Bones,

What you and others have contributed is wonderfull and has certainly cleared some questions. If that kind of detail can contribute to the discussion, I am all ears!

What remains are the questions posed at the beginning of the thread about boots and if there have been studies that tie footware to injuries and protection. It would not be easy due to the variables. Someone must have done something like this somewhere?

I am hoping that as a result of our collective enquiries we would have some indication to say this or that needs to be considered .... to protect from these/those kinds of possibilities... Maybe I am expecting too much?

The OZ study was interesting in that it gave a % of kinds injuries they 'found' - a large portion being 'lower limbs' - whatever that and their study meant and how they got there?

[Bones]

Acacia,

I am not aware of any US studies, beyond the Hurt report, that offers what you suggest. Indeed, no prospective studies have been completed. My observations are just that: observations. Empirical "data" that has been logged in my brain from watching closely what I have seen in the Emergency Rooms and in practice over the years.

As you know, one only sees what they are looking for. I do think I tend to look more closely at issues pertaining to the mechanisms of injury than a lot of my colleagues, perhaps because I ride motorcycles and most of them don't.

One of the things I tell all of my patients regarding accepting risks related to potential complications from an operation is "the data may show that only 0.5% of patients have (such and such) complication, but if you happen to be in that 0.5% pool, it is 100% for you." Most folks "get it" but some don't.

My take on wearing of gear also has to do with turning a small incident into a non issue. For example, falling off the bike in the driveway or parking lot, wearing full armor is most likely to result in scraping some bike parts and gear. But the same event wearing a T shirt and sneakers could result in a fractured ankle, knuckles and loss of skin. I know I am preaching to the choir here and will admit that there are times when I ride with what some would consider less than full armor, but what most would consider more than they often wear.

If I can find any more real data on lower extremity injuries, I will post it.

Jeff

[Bones]

Here are a few references of real studies I just found. I don't know how to get from where I found them to a direct link on computer to my post here, so if anyone wants the link(s) directly, just email me and I will email the links to you.


Peek, C., Braves, Shen, Kraus, Journal of Trauma. 1995, Aug, 32 (2): 396-7.

Same authors, same Journal, 1994, Sep: 37(3): 358-64.

These cover basically what I posted up above.

Here is another that was interesting in a different way:

Carole, Louk, Lippman Mecahnical Properties of Modern Off Road Motorcycle Riding Boots.

This study compared newer and older style off road boots for deformation from toe crush forces, dorsal and plantar flexion (up and down, basically) and valgus movement (tilting the ankle inward, basically). This was in invitro type lab study, not invivo. Bottom line: modern exoskeleton type boots are most protective. Examples are the modern Alpinestars (like Tech 6 and 8) type boots. That is nice to know, since I have a pair of Tech 6's.



Jeff

[Acacia]

Bones,

It is this growing awareness and 'empirical' collective awareness that I am happy about - and wish more persons were also tuned in to it - that assists this and othe communities to improve. The more we, and others become aware, the more we will see and understand. Every add for road riding boots now is looked at closely - I am yet to find one that has a comment about what kind of protection (Other than waterproof claims) it is supposed to offer.

Every time I talk with Dick I am asking him questions - questions about what his Dr's are saying and what is he asking them. We are milking his unfortune situation as much as we can for real information. With both feet out of action, he is really grounded - and at the loving mercy of his good wife, daughters and grand daughters!

I would suspect in Dicks case the left was dislocation and a break in the ankle due to valgus movement - also indicated by a contusion on his inner shin. The right, a possible direct impact of the heel into the ground (althought the ground there was soft)?

Thank you for you continued interest

[Deano]

An excellent discussion, and timely as I am beginning to look for another pair of boots. I have added the Vendramini Marathon’s to the list. Has anyone had any luck with finding US distributors of the Daytona line?

As today is my birthday, I have a semi-valid reason to buy myself a nice gift. My aging body could certainly use all the help it can get in the event of an unscheduled dismount. It is gratifying to see such a detailed and insightful discussion. As always, you guys continue to deliver.

[Bones]

Acacia,
I really think the "debriefing" after crashes or near miss events is of great help in resetting one's internal computer. When I hear of such incidents, I am always very curious to know every detail because it causes me to analyze what went on and how I might have put myself in a different situation to avoid an "event." Most of the time, it has been a "Street Strategy" type analysis, but often it has been a technical riding analysis: lean angle, turn in points, etc., in street riding.I am absolutely certain that there have been dozens of pending "events" that I could see evolving WAY in advance, and made changes to the ride, on the fly, making those almost events complete non events. For me, I find that SO much of it is visual these days. Seeing things in advance of them happening....trying to develop that 6th sense.

You know what I am talking about if you are an experienced rider. Here is an example. Where I ride, there are a million two lane back roads that are lined with farms. It is easy to take for granted some subtle visual clues that tell you about farm equipment up ahead. A tiny bit of dust on the horizon, some fresh dirt nuggets on the tarmac before a turn, the "feeling" that there is a pullout from a field coming up that a tractor could be coming across. Things like that. I don't even think about them anymore, but they almost automatically cause me to regulate the throttle a bit and cover the front brake with two fingers, instinctively.

That is one example of internal change that came about from hearing a near miss story from a riding buddy several years ago.

I have a bit of a wierd sense about riding on highways, too. To me, it is all about spending as close to zero time in blind spots of any vehicle AND still assuming they can't see me. AND searching constantly for an "out" should someone lane change or get on their brakes, etc. I think of it as "360 Degree riding." It is tiring, but in a different way than riding twisties all day. You get the idea.

None of this would have really helped Dick that time, as it sounds like he ran out of traction on what was perhaps a slightly off camber turn...but maybe there were hints about the turn ahead of time?

If Dick's event causes you to see things differently in the future, you may well avoid a crash that otherwise would have happened. That is always good.

Deano,
Good luck with the Daytonas. The ONE time I saw a Daytona boot for purchase (note I say boot, not boots) was in a store where the owner said "we have always had problems with distribution, so we stopped carrying them. But if that pair fits you, I will make you a killer deal." Well, the one boot did, but they had no mate! He then said, "well, I will give you are REAL killer deal if you want to buy just one boot." Made me laugh.

David Hough's Street Stategies and Proficient Motorcycling books are outstanding. You all have probably already read them. I still pick them up and read through them from time to time. Really well done.

Anyone ever done one of Larry Grodsky's courses? I hear they are excellent.

Jeff

[Acacia]

Bones,

I wholeheartedly agree.

An informed, aware, experienced, defensive and alert rider has the odds in their favour. The continuous collection of new information to add to what has already accumulated must make for a safer and more enjoyable ride.

Dick has many, many thousands of miles of riding over nearly 6 decades. His last accident was 53 years ago. On that particular day, 3 of us had already passed throught that corner - the 1st two, myself and another were probably moving at greater speed than he, passed that corner without issue. Was it a small critical lapse in his concentration - we all have that - or what? We may never know!

How and why he sustained the particular injuries to his feet - we may never know.

Your 'specialist' insights and insticts are valued.

Still searching!

[Bill]

Brian, if Dick's left ankle had not flexed, he might have had a much more serious injury. The energy has to go somewhere; in Dick's case it twisted his left foot something terrible. Dick absorbed lots of energy and I know he is feeling lucky to have been wearing his riding gear. His jacket was zipped up or closed as it should have been. I wear mine but have been known to have it unzipped or flapping in the wind. I will think twice before continuing this bad habit. This energy might have transferred on up his left leg, knee, pelvis, or hip - all in all he will heal, I know I did when I broke my pelvis. I could not move either foot in front of the other for weeks, took almost a year before I could mount my bike at all, still have to mount it using my left leg over the tank first.. Looks funny but it works. Even thought of buying one of those Suzuki Scoters which still might be a good choice. In my case I was riding an 1100 Yamaha V Twin in light mist on the way to Saturday COFFEE Feb 14th three years ago when I rolled over a wet manhole cover. The bike without any warning went down on it left side pinning me to the ground. Speed was less than 15 mph when this happened. First X-Ray showed nothing broken, on the second try they found it. My thinking is that it had something to do with the front wheel loosing traction and the torque of the driveshaft twisting me to the ground.

[jamais]

A Google Search came up with this for the Vendramini Marathon:

http://www.bikerworldusa.com/vendramini.html

[socalrob]

Bill,

What you say about the forces having to go somewhere rings true. I was told that off road MC boots, which are heavier & less flexible than road boots could actually cause injury in high speed road crashes, they would be like having inflexible weights on your legs & possibly even increase momentum forces. OTOH, the angle area is a fragile & critical area. Just hope it isn't saved at the expense of the knee.

I still gives me the willies when I see the young sport bikers with their girls on the back, all in tennis shoes or less. At least with even basic MC boots you are unlikely to grind away body parts. Gloves too. How can people ride without them?

Bones,

Your story about the orphan boot strikes home. When I turned 16 I got a job as a stock boy at a Kinney Shoes. The store was so messed up with unmated shoes in the boxes it was affecting sales. I went through 1000's of shoe boxes mating up shoes. The idiot sales people would just shovel unmated shoes into boxes. To this day I check to see if there is a "mate" code inside of shoes to make sure I got the facotry mates when I buy. I would also not normally buy the display model as it is often UV faded and or abused.

[DJ Down Under]

There's heaps of new low cut motorcycle boot out there now.

I almost bought a pair of those Roe Rocket shoes...they are so light almost like a running shoe yet they have toe slidders etc....a bit suss I think.

What do you guys think.

DJ

http://www.ironpony.com/CatImg/Large/ICON-CHUKKA-BLACK.jpg

http://www.motorhelmets.com/pics-general/alpinestars-stunt-shoes.jpg

http://www.motorhelmets.com/pics-general/boots-joerocket-atomic.jpg

[Acacia]

Socalrob, Bob,
That is the thinking - 'protection' - but how much, where and why, are the elusive questions?

With Dick now sitting with recently inserted plates, screws and wire in both ankles, it could not have been much more severe - a sharp contrast to what we saw as he lay in the ditch

There is no doubt that boots, above the ankle, are 'best'.

DJ, I guess with a little marketing, some adhesive patched on sliders, Micky Mouse bedroom slippers can also be labelled as 'bike wear'. Add a few tassels and studs and you open a whole new cruiser market!

[DarthRider]

The "made for riding" low cuts are much like mesh jackets.
Not as good as the best but much better than nothing. "Nothing" being long sleeved shirts, regular jogging shoes, etc.
The better ones do have reinforcing, toe & heel cups, abrasion & tear resistant materials, above "ankle bone" coverage, etc.
You get what you pay for and are willing to wear, for sure.

Dave

[DJ Down Under]

I have to admit that out of all my boots the little ones on the left get used 90% of the time....they're soooooo cumfee..:045: :045: :045:

DJ

http://members.optusnet.com.au/~djp1/mypic2183.JPG

[Wild Will]

If you want excellent protection, look at Daytona boots; do a google search or whatever. I have 2 pairs, the Trans Open GTX which is what I wear most of the time; it's like a dual sport boot and is extremely comfortable right out of the box. I regularly stop at some nice spot and go for a hike in them. These boots are made in Germany and are not cheap. I've tried all sorts of boots over the years, and for high risk riding, I like a 2 piece boot, and inner and outer, like the Daytona EVO Sports. These are my track boots. They have an inner boot of carbon fiber/kevlar and give you an amazing feel at the foot and also great protection. Not cheap but have you priced replacement feet lately?
I feel the same about my hand protection. The combo of "feel" and protection is very important. I won't compromise on protection even when the weather's real hot. I cringe when I see a rider in a salad bowl helmet, sunglasses, tee shirt and tennis shoes. Since I'm a volunteer fireman, I see some ghastly stuff along Cal. Hwy. 1 every year. Dress for the crash, indeed.
One other thing, when I'm on an overnight ride, I pack my Teva sandals for swimming stops and wearing to dinner. They are excellent and take up very little space. You can wear them right in the water, and I'm fond of hiking along the multitude of "gold bearing" streams around here. You just never know what you might find.

[Bones]

Wild Will,
Just curious what you use for gloves. I agree with your position on that issue.

I wear Alpinestars SP2's most of the time for street riding but will sometimes use a pair Alpinestars GP Plus gloves that I used to use for track days. Armor, always.


Re shorty boots: remember, statistically, the majority of lower extremity injuries on the MC will be at about the ankle or just above it level. So short boots won't do you any good most of the time.
Jeff

[GOGRL]

Emelda? Is that you?

I'm starting to collect nearly as many riding boots as I have shoes! Tough sometimes going from dirt boots to heels, but hey, someone's gotta do it.

I can't remember which forum I saw this at, but someone recommended a German maker of ladies boots that provides a bit of a platform for us shorties. They were quite expensive. However, as long as I'm here, anyone got any recommendations? I need a high platformed (better in the toe, heel is just added sexy) dry, summer boot. I've got some Airflows for riding in AZ that I took to a bootshop to have heels added, and they're great, but I'm concerned about rain and dry feet.

Oh, and I actually am half Filipina, born in the PI. This would explain my height deficit and the strange foods I eat. And my shoe closet is awesome.

Well, as they say back home, MEE SO HORNEEEEY, MEE LOVE YOU LOOONG TIME!

[DarthRider]

"...Well, as they say back home, MEE SO HORNEEEEY, MEE LOVE YOU LOOONG TIME!..."

Man, I don't know what to say about that...!

Dave

[taosports]

Michelle,

Will these work for you?

http://www.michaelmaloneyphotography.com/bmw/boots.jpg

Please don't tell me you eat bagoong :eek:

[jamming]

I have to admit, I've been watching this thread with great intrest since it started.
I wear Hi-tec Magnum steel-toe boots when I ride. They are lace up high boots favored by law enforcement folks. They have steel shanks in the sole and are well made and very comfy. Now you all have me wondering if I made the right choice.
I did have a big crash 10 years ago, totalled a K100RS. Got ran off the road by a drunk driver. I was doing 60, he came over at me while I was in the right lane and ran out of road. Tagged a guard rail, went over an embankment, me not the bike, the bike just tumbled and scraped down the guard rail.
I slid down about 10 feet down a grassy slope and a ways parrell with the roadway. I was wearing the best protective gear we had at the time including my boots and I was OK. Actually stopped sliding, ran up the hill to get the A holes plate, he was gone, but the cop that witnessed the accident stopped to see if I was OK and I told him to go get him! It was then I realized I was a bit banged up. Bruises, but no road rash, real sore for a couple of days. Trip to the ER, some xrays, I was ok. Must have contacted the guard rail at some point because the helmet had paint scrapes. I was lucky, I know that. My boots took a beating, but held up.
I commute daily, need a good boot, that lasts and I can walk comfortably in, as when I do tour, I love to go to musuems, walking tours etc. and not change shoes.
So...how about some advice on what you all are wearing.
Roger

[Promethean]

Michael,
Do they come in pink? I'm sure Bob NTGM would like one to go with his parasol.:037:


Michelle,

Will these work for you?

http://www.michaelmaloneyphotography.com/bmw/boots.jpg

Please don't tell me you eat bagoong :eek:

[taosports]

http://www.michaelmaloneyphotography.com/bmw/pinkboots.jpg

Not quite pink but this will give Bob the opportunity to shop for a matching dress!

[DarthRider]

I have a pair of Oxtar Matrix "touring" style boots. Totally waterproof because of Gore-Tex and the most comfortable boot I have ever worn, for riding, standing & walking.
I have worn mine nearly everyday for nearly 4 years and they are still in decent shape but I will replace them soon. I would get another pair of the Matrix but we no longer carry that brand (boy, that was a genius move!) and I am very fond of my generous employee discount. You don't make much money n the M/C aftermarket biz but you do get a lot of great gear cheap...sometimes free.
I'm sure the crash protection is less than some of the hi-end boots described here but if your budget limits you to the $200-250.00 price range take a look at these. For many/most of us a budget is a real consideration in safety gear and nearly everything else. Even if you believe in wearing nothing but "the best" sometimes it's just not an option.
They have hard toe & heel boxes, shin armor, ankle armor, double leather for wear & protection, easy on & off, look good and wear like iron. Great flexibility for "feel" and control.
The only downside is they can not be re-soled but this is true for most boots nowadays.

Dave

[supermotoC]

The best boot in the universe won't protect you from 550lbs of steel squishing your feet, but the grinding sandpaper of tarmac is nearly defeated (pun intended) by wearing decent boots, even if they are tall, lace-up engineer's boots. Nothing can protect you like leather, except not going out that day. If I was that worried about it, I'd probably never get out of bed. Like darth said, ANY decent M/C boot will protect/defend better than trainers/sandals(!)/dress shoes/hiking boots. ATGATT whether it's $800 Daytonas or $80 used Alpinestars. Other than my Daytona boots, I've always purchased used gear on eBay (I'm in the 12step program), and never pay more than $100. Search for Dainese/Alpinestars/Sidi/Spidi/Set-Up on ebay (know your euro size), and bargains be had.

[GOGRL]

"Please don't tell me you eat bagoong :eek:[/QUOTE]"

A must have condiment with kare kare! But I will not touch balut with a 10-foot pole.

Maligayang Pasko!

[GOGRL]

"The only downside is they can not be re-soled but this is true for most boots nowadays. " Dave[/QUOTE]

I had a pair of BMW Airflow boots resoled with platforms added.

[DarthRider]

"...I had a pair of BMW Airflow boots resoled with platforms added..."
The sick purple ones in the pic above?

Seriously, that is a real plus for any boot. The soles of my old perfectly serviceable Oxtars look like racing slicks and can not be repaired/replaced!

Dave

[Wild Will]

Hi Bones, I just saw your question re: gloves. I'm still learning to navigate this forum, and mind you I have to fire up the wood burning computer just to get on line.
My regular gloves for the past several years have been a pair of $120 Held German gloves with kangaroo palm leather. They give me the that tactile feel I demand when I get lucky at a gas stop and have remained comfy and sound through about 60,000 miles. No get off's or asphalt ancounters. I also have a pair of Held kangaroo road race gloves I use on the track, at around the same price. I have a pair of carbon fiber-knuckled leather gloves I use for dual sport and I have tested them; I broke both thumb and little finger on same hand but gloves were un harmed. They were also unarmored but for palm. Dress for the crash. In inhumanly hot weather, I still wear my Aerostich but douse water on my tee shirt every 50 miles and put ice in the pockets! There's nothing worse than road rash in hot weather.

[Wild Will]

Daytona boots are sold by a California company run by an excellent German fellow. His company is Helimot in San Jose. Take a look at the boots at
www.helimot.com
Like I said, they're expensive but are the best I've found, and I've worn out a few pair of Sidi boots. Mine are 4 years old, stand up to the hiiking I regularly do in and out of water, and are still like new. I do oil them a few times per season.

[Wild Will]

Oops, I forgot to say that Helimot also sells an excellent line of gloves that Helmut, the owner and a serious rider, developed himself. He's the guy who sold me my excellent Held gloves, but he insists the ones he developed are better! He also makes probably the nicest and most popular set of trackday and race leathers you'll ever see. They're all sewn right there in the back of his shop in San Jose. Pretty cool shop!

[GOGRL]

Thanks! Helmoit's what I was looking for...damned they're expensive but those gloves are also nice!!!!

This cafe's alright. Not only do I get the info I need but you guys are entertaining too. The Sprockets dude had it right though, I wonder if you guys are a little too attentive to your clothing and shoes, and who's the dude with the pink dress!

[Promethean]

That would be Bob NTGM. :D


who's the dude with the pink dress!

[supermotoC]

Ditto on Helimot - they are my source for Frey-Daytona boots. They also were the sole importer of Held gloves for many years, now they make better gloves, also from Kangaroo skin. Top drawer stuff.

[Wild Will]

Hey Michelle,
Snottsdale? That in Az.? I notice you've not yet chosen a street sport bike, and that you're a novice rider. Take this with a grain of salt, but where I live, on the coastal ridges that are like a roller coaster, bull whip, tight, blind cornered snake and narrow as a driveway, the fun and affordable 250 Ninja is way too much fun! The "local" race club, AFM, even has a 250 class and you should see these guys leave plastic on the corners (from knee pucks...).

[DarthRider]

The 250 Ninja is an amazing little bike.

My friend Ralph's ex-wife Gail had one and once humiliated several of us "big boys" in a little "roads race" in the Texas Hill Country...in the rain.
On dry pavement or long straights our manhoods (menhoods?) were well intact but in the wet curves she served them to us on a stick!

Another time she wailed the snot out of the little Ninjette keeping up with 6 Ducatis, or trying to...mile after mile after mile with the throttle & fun meter both pegged. We stopped for lunch and the bike wouldn't re-start. Both spark plugs were missing almost all the electrodes! Two new plugs and she was down the road again.

Gail was very small & petite and just wasn't big enough for a larger bike. Most of us were much relieved at that...

Dave

[GOGRL]

Yeah, Snottsdale (Scottsdale) AZ, and yes, a Newbie. In November I rode up the Pacific Coast Highway from LA to SF on the BMW, and in December I rode out to San Diego and rode up Mt. Palomar! Holy cow can you California Boys ride! Jeez, if I could do runs like that daily I'm sure I wouldn't have knees left at all! And the California riders (sport bikes) I encountered were pretty agressive - passing RVs in two-lane twisties, lane sharing on freeways - I was really impressed by the precision and skill. I need do a Track Days...

I'm dreaming of heading back up to CA in April......

[Ed K]

Helmiot has great stuff...was over there a month or so ago... and almost bought the Daytona boots... prolly the best of the best, but high priced.

But as Darth indicated...I am also very pleased with my Oxtar Matrix boots... full protection toe, ankle, shin, water proof, very comfortable, good price, and they look great too.

http://www.cyclegear.com/images/Matrix_boot_410x385.jpg

[Dallara]

Have watched this thread with great interest, but I am going to stay away from the boot discussion as I have some... sahll we say... uh, *different* ideas about boots than have been expressed here. Primarily because I am from an off-road background early, and because of knee injuries, etc. that were caused, IMHO, by boots too stiff and unyielding. I have had quite a few foot and ankle injuries, but I would have gladly traded my left knee issues for a few more of those.

In my experience foot and ankle injuries are relatively quick healing, manageable, and less debilitating overall than knee injuries.

(I wear Kochmann boots, from Germany, almost exclusively now BTW)

On the subject of gloves, however, I do want to offer up some hard-earned knowledge, particularly regarding pavement get-off's.

In a nutshell, my advice is this - Don't use ANY gloves with rivets anywhere, nor gloves with any sort of hard armor on the back. Why?

Because both cause far more problems than they solve.

Rivets in the palm of gloves would seem like a splendid idea, on the surface. However, as is often the case, reality does not always prove out some logical theories. The rivets have to penetrate the leather (or other animal or synthetic *skin*) to be anchored for their attachment to the glove. This weakens the glove in a very critical area. I discovered this the hard way in a 70+ MPH get-off at a a road race. Two things happened with the rivetied area of one glove, and both of them were bad... First, on the initial impact of my hand the rivets were driven right through the leather palm and *punched* into my hand, with several leaving deep, round holes like they were struck with a punch. Then apparently, due to the rivets weakening the palm area and the apperent fact the rivets *snagged* on the pavement, the entire palm of the glove was ripped away. Mind you, these were state-of-the-art Fox road racing gloves at the time. How do I know the palm was ripped away almost from the initial impact?

Because the entire palm of the glove was found more than a hundred feet from where I stopped tumbling, back at almost exact spot of where the crash initiated.

Injuries to that hand and wrist? Well, there was the aforementioned holes *punched* into the palm of my hand, along with a bunch of road rash on top of that from the palm being unprotected during the remainder of the sliding and tumbling. Worst injury, though, was the broken right wrist... The only bone I ever broke road racing. Certainly the initial impact is what might have broke the wrist, but I could never get it out of my mind that it was those rivets snagging in the pavement and punching into my palm that caused the hand to literally *freeze* and *lock* to the pavement while me and my arm kept right on going that snapped the bones in my wrist...

This crash was the instigation for me to try the wonderful Treen Custom Leathers deerskin road racing gloves, which started a love affair with the company right up until they went out of business. Their philosophy was that you wanted the glove to be as smooth and *snag-free* as possible in the event of a crash, and that any more seams (or rivet holes or connections to hold on armor) than necessary weakened the glove's structual integrity and actually led to more injury.

I never injured a hand or wrist again, despite a number of crashes after that... Not even the tiniest amount of road rash, even though I had a couple of other get-off's at much higher speeds after the crash described above.

Hard armor on the backs of gloves?

Same thing... Any time you start trying to attach something to the back of a glove (which is already inherently weaker since it is the side under almost constant *stretching* tension) you have to somehow penetrate the leather with holes for stitching or the like. Plus, if you get just a little grinding away of the leather surrounding the "armor" you chance exposing an *edge* of the armor, which then can snag the pavement, part of the motorcycle, or even the dig into the dirt if you slide off the pavement.

Interestingly enough, at a road race at Texas World I saw some results of this when a buddy, wearing the newest thing at the time - gloves with hard plastic armor on the back or the hand and on each section between the knuckles, had the entire back of his glove ripped off. Fortunately he had already slid off the pavement and was sliding across the dirt apron before he hit the Armco barrier. The large panel on the back of the hand of the glove was ripped completely away, including the plastic protector panel, yet the plastic panel literally showed no abrasion... Just a corner bent back and nearly torn off where it had hooked the ground.

Double layered, or even triple layered in places, with leather (or whatever hide is in the construction) in appropriate areas is my glove of choice, with as few seams as humanly possible.

I still have one pair of Treen gloves I guard with my life, and that only come out of the quiver when I am going to some twisties to play at really big speeds. The rest of the time I wear Lee Parks Deerskin gloves, which means 98% of my riding.

That said, I like the looks of the Helimot gloves mentioned, and might even look into a pair of those. I like 'em primarily for the reasons I have mentioned above... Few seams to ripped or tear, or to weaken the integrity of the hide. No rivets or hard armor to snag or bang into your flesh with hard edges.

But then, that is only my humble opinion... YMMV, and your experiences, too.

Cheers!

Allan (Dallara - NACD)

[Bones]

Guess it is my turn to kindly disagree with some of the information regarding armor. I will offer a few thoughts with the understanding that we all come from different perspectives and , therefore, see certain things differently.

Let's start with the concept that if we are comparing soft vs. armored gear (specifically gloves, here) that they are both of outstanding quality. This is to suggest that:
1. The soft gloves will not wear through easily in a crash, exposing skin and what is beneath it.
2. The armored gloves are made in a way that they will not normally delaminate as Dallara described. I know he said he saw that happen, but lets assume here that is usually doesn't.

Now, yes, it is POSSIBLE that an armored glove could catch on the edge of something like a pavement edge. But so can your knuckle, a flailing finger, etc. IF the armor is exposed and not encased in leather, it is usually much more slippery than the leather. This is why Alpinestars got away from carbon fiber hard parts (which look cool, but can splinter and also is not as slippery as plastic) and went to high density, semi flexible and VERY slippery plastic. As with all armor, the idea is to distribute the force of impact over a wider area, reducing the impact in one area and thus reducing the likelihood of injury or magnitude of injury. If the hit is tangential, the plastic should slide better than leather or skin. And it does. If it is not a tangential hit, but is a perpendicular hit, the force distribution will literally be about 100 times wider in the knuckle areas than without armor.

I accept the anecdotal observation(s). Please accept mine, which are gleaned from:
1. Studying the bioengineering of this stuff during the course of surgical training.
2. Seeing patterns and constellation of injuries of many, many, many patients in the Emergency Room over the years. What this means is that I have seen the occaisional "gee, that shouldn't have happened" incident, but more importantly, the patterns that are generated when one sees large volumes of any given type of event.
3. Having "crash tested" gear (fortunately only once, on the race track, and hopefully never again).

My own experiece will be put in the category of "single anecdotal observation." In my case, my left hand had the opportunity to ride across the tarmac, gravel, grass and more tarmac before I rolled twice and came to a stop. My body weight was above it and the ground surfaces below it. I did have an edge of tarmac experience, proven by the full thickness leather rip in my full Vanson Race suit. I also remember the entire crash....too well, perhaps. I am absolutely, 100% sure that had I not been wearing armored gloves, I would have had at least one fracture of my left hand. As it turns out, I had nary a scratch or bruise of my hand. I was wearing Aplinestars GP Pro gloves at the time. The armor, by the way, took a real beating. It did not wear through, but it wore part way through.

I agree with the rivet comments. They aren't needed if you have multi layered leather on the heels of the hands.

Now, one of the injuries that MAY be avoided at least some of the time with armored gloves (but not all of the time) is a scaphoid fracture. They are small, but very painful and usually will not heal. They can be supremely debilitating because the scaphoid has very little blood supply.

Think of the armor issue like this (and remember, we are making the assumption that these are high quality gloves so the armor won't delaminate from the glove): Go put a good armored glove on your left hand. Go out to the pavement. Take a hammer and pound your knuckles. Then, take the glove off and put on a high quality leather only glove. Repeat the exercise. Please email me the results. I believe this test is valid.

Finally, remember what anecdotes can do........they can be very convincing. I recall those that suggested that you are better off not wearing a seat belt because you are safer being thrown from the car rather than be stuck in it if it catches fire. Sorry...wrong. And there is the one about motorcycle helmets being unsafe compared to riding with no helmet because after you hit, you can slide and it can cause neck injuries. You get the idea.

I don't mean to disrespect the opinions offered. I just want to clarify some things here so that the understanding is on the level. That is not so say all leather gloves are bad. I have admitted to riding occasionally in non armored boots. But I will never say they are as protective or more protective as armored.

Also remember, I once had some strong opinions about ABS brakes on motorcycles and servos on BMW motorcycles. Dallara straightened me out on some things by making me think through them methodically. I was wrong and he was right. I learned.

I will leave the ankle vs. knee injury argument and correlation with armored boots for another time.

Ride Safe,

Jeff

[Wild Will]

Darth, you just gotta watch them wimmins and them wet curves...Yep, the 250 Ninja will please you if you want to corner like nobody's business and are willing to use the mighty 250 twin high revver to the max; you can't kill these things. Probably the one bike I'd keep IF I could only have one bike, but remember there arern't any straight roads where I live. If we can only reinforce our manhood on a straight road, what hope is there? Maybe the most fun I've had since that time we cut across a lawn and came up on the rear of the cops that were chasing us in front of us!

[Wild Will]

Michelle, come on by in April and we'll show you some stuff you'll never forget! How about some roller coasters on asphalt that'll have you screaming in your Shoei!

[DarthRider]

Hey! I just checked my friend Rusty's site MotorcycleCloseouts.com and found he has Oxtar Gore-Matrix boots on special pricing. MSRP is $210, he has them for $169...a smokin' deal!
I described these above and Ed K posted an image.
I'm going to order another pair tomorrow.
Hey, they don't have a sexy Euro name, don't have Ricky Racer styling and don't cost more than my first motorcycle, but it's a great boot at this price!
More of a sport-touring than a race or track boot.
If you go there, tell Rusty I sent you...he's cool! And he is a serious rider.

Dave

[Moose]

Darth, Thanks for the gouge on the Oxtar boots, ordered a pair this afternoon. This thread has changed my opinions on the riding boot subject. Goin' for max protection now.

[Deans BMW]

I also just ordered a pair from MotorcycleCloseouts.com , the first pair of true M/C boots since I was a dealer, been using Red Wing Wellingtons.

[Tipstall]

I also ordered a pair. They will not be availble soon as the US distributor is changing.

Ken

[Deano]

I have a pair of Oxtar Matrix boots that I picked up at Motorcyclecloseouts.com last summer, for about the same price. Very happy with them, very comfortable, dry, good protection, but a little warm during the summer. The only thing I have found that I do not like is the apparent rapidity with which the fine tread features wear. After only 7000 miles, or so, most of the “contact patch” areas are now devoid of all but the major tread patterns. I have noticed a significant decrease in traction under less-than ideal conditions that once presented no problems whatsoever.

The previous messages RE: the virtues of the Vendramini Marathon boot, and the windfall of some birthday cash, prompted me to order a pair. Very nice! I suspect after some break-in, they will be as comfortable as the Oxtar’s. The Oxtars will still make a nice second pair of boots.

Any one ever try/hear about BMW Transition boots?

Threads such as this have saved me from much trial-and-error in the selection of good riding gear.

[Acacia]

I too have learned a lot - it is the value of informed experience (The lack of empirical objective research still missing) one gets here - not some mindless wannabe rant. Thank to all the continuing contributors.

I am yet to find a boot that I am satisfied with the fit - but I know the direction I want to go in! The difficulty is my feet. With particularly high insteps and wide EE feet, unless there are laceups - they dont fit comfortably. The search continues.

Postscript;
Dick is in today to have the stitches removed from the pins and plates surgery that were inserted 10 days ago and to have new casts. Seems he will be able to put pressure onto the dislocated/broken left foot before the right foot that was not initally diagnosed as broken.

When he can use one leg and crutches - it will be party time for him! He will then be able to use the regular conveniences around the home!

[Ed K]

Brian,

FYI...I have EEE and high instep feet...

And found the Oxtar Matrix to fit comfortably, where others did not.

[Acacia]

Thank you Ed K for the heads up!

[Wild Will]

Daytona has a new boot available, called Security EVOS <www.helimot.com>
They have an innner boot of Kevlar/carbon fiber, lined with leather, and a replaceable outer shell of kangaroo leather and everything else you'd want in a get off. Reafy for the price? No, you're not. It's $949.95. The replaceable outer boots are $269.95.
Seems very similar to my Teknic Speedstar boots which I got at Laguna Seca for $300 with a free pair of $175 track gloves. A gentleman can't have enough gear. There are some pretty amazing deals at USGP!

[DarthRider]

$949.95?? Dayam!
What does a new foot cost? Must be cheaper than that!
Wish I was rich...

Dave

[Wild Will]

Darth, Even a black market cadaver foot costs way more than those boots! And they're a bitch to install.

[Dallara]

Geez!

$950 BUCKS?

I had state-of-the-art moto-cross bikes back in the 1970's that didn't cost me that much!

And I can't recall any race helmets right now that cost nearly that much. Guess for some people theor feet are worth more to 'em than their head!

Wow!

Allan (Dallara - NACD)

[supermotoC]

The limited edition of the Security Evo.

Now you have the one-time opportunity to order your individual Security Evo from the limited edition (worldwide only 100 units). Each boot is a custom-made product, designed according to your wishes and with more features than the standard model, Retail price of this top quality boot: 850,- Euro.




http://www.daytona.de/english/sec_evo_e/sec_evo_pix/Bilder/SecEvo_10years_09.jpg

I think the new all-carbon fibre BMW helmet is now over $900.
If you could get one here in the new world.

http://www.bmw-motorrad.com/com/en/specials/sportintegral_helmet/img/vis_carbon_safety.jpg

[DJ Down Under]

I think Les has that helmet (1000 grams)..I have the standard heavy version (1200 grams)...nice helmets.

I don't know why you guys can't get them...they're not a flip...so it's not that.

also...re boots...I'd love to get a pair of these.

DJ

http://www.sidisport.com/_Data/Articoli/MVVertigoTe-NER.jpg

[Bones]

DJ,
I have a pair that is one level higher than those that were for track use exclusively (for me). Sidi Vertigo is what is pictured. The Vertigo Corsas are the full on race boot and have an extra articulated ankle support. They are great. No waterproof nature to them at all. But if it is dry out, they are really great. And they make you look like you are fast when you are standing around.

Jeff

[supermotoC]

Sidi boots probably fit better than any.....

The BMW helmets aren't SNELL/DOT tested/approved, so we can't import them - plus, with many states not having a helmet law, why bother...
The full carbon Vemar (originally $800+) got blown out here in the US for $400 - no one cared.

[LesKoh]

Howdya' guess DJ :icon_wink: Yup, got the BMW Carbon helmet and it's freaky light! When I first picked it up, I thought the folks from the Parts Dept were messing with me and only gave me a shell. Extremely comfortable and vents well. Gripes: well, the visor's flimsy thin and works on friction (no indents on the latch mechanism for fixed-click positions), changing visors will require a coin (or the like) to remove the locking screws, so no quick-change - drop a screw down a drain and you're stuffed! Extreme cold weather might also be a problem as the top vent is permanent - can't be closed by pushing the vent cover as in the Sport Integral. Still, despite its shortcomings, its still a very very cool lid!:cool:

[Deano]

An excellent discussion, and timely as I am beginning to look for another pair of boots. I have added the Vendramini Marathon’s to the list. Has anyone had any luck with finding US distributors of the Daytona line?

As today is my birthday, I have a semi-valid reason to buy myself a nice gift. My aging body could certainly use all the help it can get in the event of an unscheduled dismount. It is gratifying to see such a detailed and insightful discussion. As always, you guys continue to deliver.

Just a quick note to say that I have had my Vendramini's for a couple of weeks now and I must say they are very nice, indeed. So nice, in fact, I generally wear them all day at work.