F1 engine warmup!

[DarthRider]

Check *this* out!

http://metacool.typepad.com/metacool/2006/02/unabashed_gearh.html

Dave

[Dallara]

"Memories... Light the corners of my mind... Misty water color memories of the way we were. Scattered pictures of the smiles we left behind..."

Sad, but all that wonderful V-10 tech is behind us now... Replced by what is nearly all but friggin' "spec" motor 2.4 liter V-8's. F-1 will be so *dumbed down* as to be almost unwatchable.

One of the greatest memories of my life is going to the last two Mexico F-1 GP's... First time saw the last of the turbo cars run with some of the new normally-aspirated cars (Cosworth-powered Benetton's and Ilmor-powered Leyton House March's)... Second and last was better... All normally-aspirated... V-8's (Cosworth HB's and Ilmor's), V-10's (Honda's and Renault's among others), and V-12's (Ferrari's, Lamborghini's, and Porsche's, and the Life W-12 that didn't make the race)... I was perched right next to the starting line... AND THEY HAD THREE STARTS TOTAL! (initial start and two restarts)

The sound was GLORIOUS!

24 wild, amazing engines on their rev limiters, and no *launch control" so they all left in a piercing cacophony of frenetic sound... A wall of decibels so real you felt you could cut it with a knife... and a blue fog of tire smoke and the smell of rubber heated to its melting point.

I can close my eyes and still see and hear it.

We used to see header glow and blue-white flame shows with our old turbocharged Indy cars during warm-up in the garage, too... And our team was lucky enough to have run Indy Turbo Buick's (1993 and '94), Ilmor-Mercedes-Benz's (1995), and Ford-Cosworth's (1996) before going with the *dumbed-down* normally-aspirated engines of the IRL (rev-limiters and tons of other design stuff that took engineering technology out of the game... <sigh>).

The turbo engines were pretty quiet... Like Mario Ilien used to say of the barely boosted CART engines, "These low-boosted engines are nearly atmospheric, and equipped with the most expensive and complex muffler arrangements ever devised by man..."... But they did produce some horsepower, and a ton of heat...

And we would get the entire header banks and turbochargers themselves glowing bright cherry red. Stainless steel headers produce the most orange-red, but the the Inconel headers produced a more interesting range of colors... orange, red, and even a purplish-white glow at the junctures...

But unfortunately auto racing may never see those light shows, or have such unforgettable sounds, ever again...

Sad. Truly sad...

Allan (Dallara - NACD)

[DJ Down Under]

Thanks Dave...that was great...I was waiting for a bang...or a fire...jeees how hot were those headers...:icon_eek:

In just a few weeks I'll be at the Formula One's here in Melbourne...I can't wait..:003: ..they may be only V8's now but they'll be reving to almost 20,000 rpm.

DJ

[Dallara]

DJ said:


"...they may be only V8's now but they'll be reving to almost 20,000 rpm."


True, DJ... But's that's not as big a feat as it sounds. The engines are only 2.4 liters, and for a multi-cylindered engine of that displacement 20-K is really not a stretch for a pure racing powerplant with meg-millions of development money behind it.

It would be like a 300cc single revving to 18,000 or so (and some 250cc PRODUCTION MX four-stroke singles rev to over 14,000 right now...)

Or a 600cc twin revving the same...

Or a 1,200cc four... Not unlike 990cc MotoGP bikes... and none of them have pneumatic valves any more (the old Aprilia three-cylinder "Cube" had pneumatic valves, but it's gone)...

I'm sorry, but I have gotten thoroughly depressed these past coulle of years with Max Mosley & Co. dumbing down F-1 with treaded tires, narrow track widths, etc. Now teams can buy customer chassis', for chrisakes, instead of having to build their own... And every engine maker has to make their engines for sale ot at least one other team...

Basically, F-1 has literally lost its *cutting edge* persona.. Now it is just another "spec car" series, albeit a very expensive one.

No wonder the engine makers want to form the GPMA series.

Cheers!

Allan (Dallara - NACD)

[Bones]

Two words:

Holy Shit.

Jeff

[socalrob]

Dallara,

The rules are to slow the cars down?

I like the way MotoGP does it by reducing engine size as technology improves. Not sure how I feel about setting weight requirements though.

Its like our public universities, in the name of diversity they have to dumb down their entrance requirements. I wish a state like Cali would have at least one university that admitted students only on test scores, no athletics, no community service, no hard luck stories. See what happens when you really get the smartest kids together. So what if they are all Asians.:) Same with F1. Would be nice if there was one race series where anything goes. Bet you would see some trick engineering. I hate dumbing stuff down to the lowest common denominator.

[Dallara]

SocalRob asked:



"The rules are to slow the cars down?"



Well, that's part of Max Mosley's theory anyway. Though his major push in this latest idiocy is to ostensibly reduce costs, but...

1.) How any moron can think that forcing manufacturers to go from already fully developed engines to designing completely new engines is going to reduce costs is beyond me. I was deeply involved with three different engine development programs - one of which never got out of the drawing stage because of some *new* rules, which were supposed to reduce costs and slow the cars down - but did neither!

2.) Last I checked the teams in F-1 were not exactly going broke, and had mega-million dollar budgets. Sure, you had teams like Minardi with ONLY $50-million dollar budgets, but those were the exception. Ferrari and Toyota spent well over $200-million a year (some say Ferrari topped $300-million), with Honda and Renault not far behind. Mercedes funds McLaren over $150-million, and BMW funds Williams to the tune of over $140-million. Point is the engine manufacturers don't really care what it costs - they want rules stability more than anything else, and then they can control the costs through amortization and economies of scale. Forcing them to start with a clean sheet of paper only drives the costs up. There is no reason to re-invent the wheel every four or five years or so.

Used to be in F-1 you had quite a bit of diversity. At one time turbo's and normally-aspirated engines ran together, but the FIA drug its feet on adjusting the *equivalency* formula and turbo's took over with everyone running them. The FIA began limiting boost (a good thing because it did bring costs down) and things got pretty equal, and would have gotten more so, but...

Then they decided that we don't want turbo's any longer - we want normally aspirated, so they first brought back nearly the same equivalency formula - and so turbo's still won - so they finally outlawed turbo's. That brought on the *new* normally-aspirated era, but you still had diversity... V-12's, W-12's, Flat-12's, V-10's, and V-8's. Over time, as with most engineering solutions, nearly all of the teams gravitated to a fairly narrow-angle V-10 for length, width, crankshaft height, aero profile (under the mandated aero dynamic rules), power and torque production, etc. due to the restraints. Ferrari stuck with a V-12, and Honda had one in competition development (but not winning yet)... But what happened? The FIA decided everybody had to run a V-10 (despite the protests of both Honda and Ferrari), and all had to fit certain dimensional mandates... And this was also supposed to reduce costs.

What happened? Costs went up with all-new engine development as everyone had to start over again, and speeds went up, not down...

3.) F-1 is SUPPOSED to be about the pinnacle of automotive technology... and it should still be. It is supposed to be about pushing the edge of the envelope and developing new solutions to problems - and it worked damn well at this for decades... We all owe today's car and motorcycle narrow-valve angle, four-valve, low-roof, high-squish, super efficient combustion chambers to Keith Duckworth (who just recently passed away unfortunately) of Cosworth and his DFV from 1967. We all owe Cosworth for today's high-pressure, thin-wall die-castings, too. Literally today's motorcycles could not exist without that technology. We also owe today's automatically and paddle-actuated manual gearboxes to Renault... And today's *adaptive* ECU's to Honda... Today's high-position, fountain-head fuel injectors were also first developed in F-1, along with ceramic turbo's, DTC-coding error reporting systems, fly-by-wire engine control, stiff-wall performance radials (thanks to Michelin taking the leap with radials in F-1), and a myriad of other things to F-1... Except all that was F-1 over a decade ago...

Slowly F-1 has moved to being more and more of a *spec-car* series, with technological advancement stifled. Now carbon-fiber tubs are mandated and all that is allowed, which means some of the newer possible construction materials and methods, like boro-silicate ceramics are illegal. Metal-matrix composites were coming on line just a few years ago, with promises of stronger, lighter rods, pistons, and other engine components, but metal-matrix composites were outlawed. Oval-pistons were outlawed before one ever appeared in F-1. Variable length intakes and exhausts were outlawed just as they were showing great promise (and now thye are on production cars), variable cam timing was outlawed in F-1, as were CVT gearboxes and active suspensions.

Now everybody is going to have to develop essentially identical 2.4 liter V-8's, with four-valves per cylinder (and rotary or sleeve valves outlawed), and what amount to *spec* ECU's. All sorts of other parameters are being constrained, too, and we will also have what amounts to a *spec* tire!

Engineers will now be dealing with the same problems as NASCAR and IRL teams do - Finding a way to sharpen a stone axe instead of developing power saws. While they should be using their brainpower to advance technology they will only be reduced to being backyard tuners.

Does that sound like the pinnacle of automotive technology to you?

Hell, today's European or Japanese mega-perfomance sedan has far, far more advanced technology than an F-1 car, and all because high-technology is OUTLAWED in the premier class of auto racing in the world. So you tell me, where are tomorrow's advancements in automotive technology going to come from?

Racing is supposed to be about going FASTER and FASTER, not slower and slower and reducing costs. There are more *spec* series around that needed, and F-1 certainly does need to become the next.

And as for MotoGP...

Here's a newsflash for you (and a prediction, one that shows the FIM is not much smarter than the FIA)...

MotoGP lap times will FALL - i.e. the bikes will turn faster lap times by mid-season of the first year of the 800cc rule. The FIM supposedly wants to slow the bikes down, but they won't (except maybe to reduce top speed 5 to 8 MPH at the end of the longest straights). Why?

That's the interesting question, because if you look at the trend the manufacturers have actually been SOFTENING the power delivery of the current bikes - actually removing peak power in favor of broader, easier to control power. Almost all of any lost peak power in today's 990cc MotoGP bikes can be regained with revs, and in all honesty if you can make well over 225 HP with a 990, you can make well over 215 with an 800... AND IT WILL ACTUALLY BE EASIER TO RIDE! So cornering speeds will go UP, not down, and we will have less passing. Why will we have less passing?

Because the bikes will be easier to ride, and hit softer off the corner, so less skilled riders will be able to ride closer to the very best. When something is difficult to ride the cream rises to the top. Make it easier to ride for everybody only reduces the most highly skilled rider's advantage. The second reason we will have less passing is because those more highly skilled riders won't be able to use their higher talent level to get that better drive off the corner, so everyone will be travelling at nearer the same velocity all the way down the straight and it will be harder to set-up a late-braking pass.

One valid point about racing - THE HARDER A GIVEN RACE VEHILE IS TO CONTROL THE BIGGER ADVANTAGE THE BETTER DRIVER/RIDER WILL HAVE. The easier you make a race vehicle to control, the more chance a mediocre driver/rider will have to be even. Don't believe me? You need look no further than the IRL or ChampCar to see grand examples of this (and I used to field an IRL team, but now I won't even watch the races). When everybody can run around flat-out, literally regardless of skill level, then the more homogenized the racing becomes...

Which is where F-1, and eventually MotoGP, are headed.

One last point - Where do most crashes happen, on the straights or in corners?

So, given the obvious answer to that one, how does reducing the speed of a motor racing vehicle on the straightaways make the racing SAFER?

I only mention this because many of the current rule changes to ostensibly slow vehicles down are done in the name of "safety". Only it doesn't add up. Slow 'em down on the straights and you usually end up with three things - 1.) Higher cornering speeds, because it's hard to undo all those previous advances in tires, suspensions, brakes, etc. 2.) More people trying stupid moves under braking or going into a corner because that is just about the only place you can attempt a pass, and you end up with more people trying to occupy the same space at the same time, all while the vehicle is its least stable - slowing down from its highest velocity and trying transition from braking to cornering, and 3.) More people crowded together at the corner's apex, which is a recipe for disaster...

So here's the real kicker - 9 times out of 10 any attempt to slow the cars down by reducing power doesn't make the racing safer, but far more DANGEROUS, because you end up crowding more people together in closer proximity, when the vehicles are most unstable, and where the most crashes would occur anyway!

What to really make racing safer? Add more power, and let the men get separated from the boys.

Okay, rant over. Whew, I feel better!

Hope I didn't bore anybody too much...

Cheers!

Allan (Dallara - NACD)

[NoRRmad]

I'd like to see them throw out the tech regs -- except for slowly reducing the total amount of fuel allowed throughout the race.

[BobFV1]

I've only been to two F1 races - the inaugural Malaysian GP at the opening of the Sepang circuit outside Kuala Lumpur, and the same race two years later. I remember the incredible sound of the cars the first time I heard them and how raw the power was - popping and spitting and roaring - nothing like it - and not at all like the Indy car races I had seen in my youth.

Allan (edited by Bob) - thanks for sharing your racing wisdom and knowledge with us.

[DarthRider]

"...Darth - thanks for sharing your racing wisdom and knowledge with us..."

I didn't share any wisdom, that was Dallara. I just posted to vid.

Dave

[geechie]

For whatever reason, I don't get the vid. I mean I would definitely get it if I had gotten it, but I ain't got it yet... Get it?

Fuck! Never mind. Dave would you e-mail me the link, please?

George