BMW FINAL DRIVE ISSUE?

[Wild Will]

Personally, I don't know anyone who's had a failure, but I have heard about some:

There's now a database to register your final drive failures for
possible NHTSA action:

http://bmwfinaldrive.com

[NoRRmad]

Thanks, Will. I registered my FD failure from last June. (That site is pretty enigmatic. Do you know who's running it?)

[Wild Will]

Sorry, I don't know. Found it on the GS List at Micapeak.

[DarthRider]

Personally, I don't know anyone who's had a failure,

http://bmwfinaldrive.com

Of course you do...I've had 2 failures on my R1150R, and I've bitched about it so much everyone is tired of hearing about it.
Except for that register I guess. I'll sign up...is it a contest ?
First prize is a new final drive ! Second place gets 2, 3rd place is 3, and so on...

[Wild Will]

Dangerous Denizen, you had to put OIL in it first; what did you expect?
Sweet Lorrine, my arse.

[NoRRmad]

Whoever is running that site should redesign it; I'm not happy with my name and VIN number being publicly posted.

[DarthRider]

Dangerous Denizen, you had to put OIL in it first; what did you expect?


The first time, the fresh (but jet-black) synthetic oil ended up in the parking lot of the local Fart & Fetchem in Bumfark, Louisiana. The bike was still within the warranty mileage but 4 months out of the time limit. What really hurt was that I was on a business trip, riding with a Harley dude. It costs me $600 to get it home in a U-Haul truck. No help from BMW naturally.

Major hassle..."Der ees no problem, schtupid Amerikaner! Und even if der vas, eet must be yur vault ! Vee do NOT make squeeky, leaky, kerplunky, patootee rear drivuns in der Faderland, ve are GERMANS !" At first they offered NO help at all. Upon appeal, they offered a 50/50 warranty, I guess they were saying that since the bike was out of warranty in time but not miles, the failure was time related and only half their fault ?? Fascinating. The local Parts Mgr. & Regional Mgr. beat them into a 30/70 warranty and I was only out of pocket about $400 this time.

The 2nd time, the replacement unit failed 150 miles after replacement and the oil ended up in my dealer's scrap oil tank. But... they were caught by their 1 year replacement parts program and had to replace it free. Interestingly, when they replaced the 2nd one, they also replaced the driveshaft which was near failure too !

Of course I was without the bike both times for 2 weeks.

The Parts Mgr. is a friend and he told me that BMW was steadfastly denying there was "a problem", but his Regional Mgr. confided they were changing out "quite a few" of them with total failures. And...Germany was adamant that the dealers NOT attempt repairs or even open them up. Just send them home for analysis. He said the party line became "even if there is a problem, it is statistically insignificant". I understand now the dealers have fix-kits and failures are a relatively quick in & out. A year and a half ago when I was at Sturgis, I met a R1150 GS driver who limped in on a failing unit and the local dealer had him fixed up in 2 days. He said he had to pay for it as he was out of warranty and it cost several hundred dollars.

I understand from my dealer friend the "un-problem" "did not happen" with several models, in addition to the R.

My R1150R (Darth) is my 3rd BMW, my 2nd new one. And my last. A poorly designed and/or built assembly is certainly possible for any machine I suppose, even BMW. Even a rear drive that they have been making a long, long time. But their steadfast denial of the problem, their bobbing & weaving on warranty help, and treating the whole issue as a statistical anomaly is just unforgivable and the worst treatment I have ever recieved with a motorcycle problem.

They lost their chance to make me a "customer for life" and turned me into a "disgruntled former-customer for life."

[Wild Will]

Danger Man, thanks for "the whole story". I completely agree with you. Companies should step up and always make good on their mistakes. I have not met another failed rear drive owner, as I've been pretty lucky all things considered.

The reason I won't have a new BMW is because I want the Adventure model, and the one at my dealer is $21,500 PLUS FEES. No, my 1100 GS still rules!

And what if you buy the ESA and want to install Ohlins down the road? The shocks are wired into the wiring harness. Anton, if you're there, what are your thoughts?

[DarthRider]

Danger Man, thanks for "the whole story".

No, I left out the really aggravating parts...

[fganger]

Wild Will,

Just to add to the mix, my last two BMW's had the rear end go. The first was my K12RS and my R1150R - almost twice. At about 35,000 miles my clutch went out, while they were in there they thought to look around. It was the feeling of Chicago BMW that the rear end would of gone pretty soon after that. Then it did go about a year ago. Thank's to our Dean, SJ was able to help me quite a bit.

As a side-note, I've owned well over 35 machines. Some of them, H. D. for example, always had a poor reputation. But you know what? They never left me by the side of the road. The only two times I've been broken down on the side of the road was with BMW. BTW, each time the bike was a new model - The R69US, and my K12RS.

So there you go.

[DarthRider]

Stinkin' Frank -
In my 50 years of riding I've only been left on the road twice also.
The first time was my Norton when a 25 year old ignition switch broke.
The 2nd time was my '02 R1150R with around 22K miles.
All that prevented there being a 3rd time was when I got my BMW dealer to admit the vibration symptoms were the same as the last blow-up, and do *another* replacement. It's sure better to dead-line your bike in a dealer's parking lot than on another long trip, far from home.
Anything can break...it's just what the manufacturer does afterwards that counts, how they treat the customer. What their attitude is.
And of course, if they fix the *overall* problem.
I wonder if they really have ? Not all the blown up rear drives you hear about nowadays are old, hi-mileage models. Let's hope they've done more than a re-design with elevation to "non-maintenance" status, then changing their minds again about the non-maintenance part.
Who's in charge of the Final Drive Department over there anyway...Sgt. Schultz ? :104:
Sorry, I'm still a little bitter.

[Wild Will]

I guess I've just been lucky, but my 96 GS is the best bike I've owned so far. I'm not going to go for a new BMW, though. These failures are troublesome to contemplate. I'd be bitter too, Dave.

Which would you choose if it was between a Ducati 1100 Multistrada S or a 990 KTM Adventure?

[DarthRider]

Will, that's the puzzling thing about it...they don't "all do that" by any means. Most don't, or so it seems. But enough do that you can't say they they "all don't do that" either. Why can't they just get it right ?
Hmmm, between Eurotrash hot-rod adventure bikes...I guess I'd go with the big Katoom, but not before I did a lot of research. Depending on what you will do with it you might consider a farkled WeeStrom or a Versys...I hear great things about both. Sounds like yoour Jonesing for a big-bore though.
Maybe we can scare up an old Cagiva Elephant for you ?
Maybe a Moto Morini Camel ?
I found out my local KLR riding bud also has a real nice XR400. He alternates trips to the mountains by riding the KLR one trip, hauling the XR up the next. He really loves it and promised me a good, long ride.

[Wild Will]

Sounds like your Jonesing for a big-bore though.
Maybe we can scare up an old Cagiva Elephant for you ?
Maybe a Moto Morini Camel ?
I found out my local KLR riding bud also has a real nice XR400. He alternates trips to the mountains by riding the KLR one trip, hauling the XR up the next. He really loves it and promised me a good, long ride.

No Camels, Elefants or Versys for me. "I like big torque and I cannot lie". I have an almost new XR 400 street licensed in California for sale. You oughta get it DD, so you and your bud can alternate together...

[DarthRider]

I have an almost new XR 400 street licensed in California for sale. You oughta get it DD, so you and your bud can alternate together...

Nein danke. I too, alas, am but a mere slave to the God of Torque.

But if we did "alternate together"...would that be gay ? :ymca:
My funky boss used to say, "It's not gay as long as you're on top". But that just sounded wrong to me.

[Sir Limpsalot]

Which would you choose if it was between a Ducati 1100 Multistrada S or a 990 KTM Adventure?

Easy! The Tiger 1050, by a country mile.

Si.

[Pacific]

+1 on the Tiger 1050.

[DarthRider]

Si & Pacific...I am embarrassed !
The synapses were not firing when I recommended other than the 1050 Tiger, my bad.
An excellent and "bang for the buck" motorcycle for sure.
The Ducati & KTM are excellent motorcycles too, but "bang for the buck"...nah. IMO.
And none are plagued with "Final Drive Issues", of which you inquired.
And WW, I believe you said "torque" is a requirement ?

[fnfalman]

Alas, the final drive/spline lube issue was very real with the R1150R. I don't know why the final drives on the new R1200Rs are the way they are though. Supposedly my Beemer guru told me that because of the stupidity of BMW coming out saying that the shaft drive didn't need maintenance, but that doesn't explain the very new ones that are blowing shaft drives.

My faith in the Roundel is fading quickly. I'm seriously thinking about trading my Rockster in for of all things, a Duck. After the final drive gets fixed, that is. Yes, it's blown too.

[DarthRider]

My faith in the Roundel is fading quickly. I'm seriously thinking about trading my Rockster in for of all things, a Duck. After the final drive gets fixed, that is. Yes, it's blown too.

Sympathy & empathy my friend.

[Wild Will]

The Triumph needs suspension help; neither the KTM nor the Ducati need any. That was part of my short list requirements. I love the look and the engine, but they went cheap (as MOST do) on the suspension. Alan Cathcart said the Multistrada was the most fun he's had on a street bike. That 1100 aircooled V twin mill is something. KTM have had several recalls; mine had fuel tank and rear brake recalls. I think the KTM is awesome. I have friends who have beaten theirs literally to death, and they're still operating perfectly. Both have had to change front (spoked) wheels, as they both bent in Mexico, but still held tubed air!

Collyer, is yours carbureted? I'm wondering if the 990 fuel injection gives a smooth transition or is it "light switch" style?

Here's another BMW problem I see coming: if you buy the new electronic suspension control, you're stuck with the stock shocks, as they're wired into the computer (this is an assumption on my part). No high zoot suspension "down the road".

[Moose]

Back to the issue at hand. After surveying the landscape of Hexhead and "new" style K bike final drive (the ones with holes in 'em) failures, I've determined not all failures are equal. Some failures are due to internal bearing fatigue with little warning. These sudden ultimate failures appear to make up a relatively small sample of the total number of failures. Not a small problem if you happen be the one with the unexpected failure, as Darth can attest.
Paul Glaves, in the BMWON editions of Nov. 07 and Jan. 08 has identified the most common cause of the Hex head and K bike "new" final drive failure, the crown seal. Paul and Voni Glaves joined us Cafe members at Big Bend last year, he might remember me as the guy who asked if he had an extra set of rear brake pads for a 1200GS. Don't ask. Because of copyright considerations I will not quote his recommendations, but suffice to say Paul has observed that a leaking seal will lead to ultimate failure.
This is significant. After 15k miles and the BB trip, my 06RT developed a leak from the crown seal on the right side of the final drive looking from the rear. It was repaired under warranty and probably averted a failure. It is now part of my post flight of the bike after a ride. Likewise, I have a 1200GS and make the same observations.
So what to do to preclude leaks? Well, it's back to the 12K final drive and transmission fluid changes. It turns out, having a no drain hole for the final drive fluid change is not a bad thing. Having purchased the R1200 Maintenance DVD from JVB Productions for $25, JimVonBaden@msn.com I've been able to drop the final drive of the GS to replace the fluid, lube the spline (that was dry) and pull the magnetic speed sensor to check for gear shavings to judge wear. So far so good, very little wear as indicated by the speed sensor.
In the final analysis, it appears the issue is manageable if prudent care is taken. To everyone with the new final drive, let's just ride like hell and do a post flight inspection. Having a shop replace a crown seal will cost about $170, hopefully routine final drive fluid changes will avert that investment. Short of sudden ultimate failure, we should have adequate warning of a pending failure. And I can happily live with that. :028:

[Moose]

It may be helpful to consider another issue with respect to the "new" final drives on the R and K bikes. The spec gear oil for the final drive is "Castrol SAF-XO". This spec is only for the "new" final drives and not for the 1150/1100 R bikes and K bricks. This spec is found in a BMW service bulletin and on the maintenance CD for the 1200GS. Having a spec fluid for the final drive is just swell, except "Castrol SAF-XO" is marketed in Europe and not North America. So what to use? I've gone with the BMW SAE 75W90 Super Synthetic Gear Oil, which meets spec. When searching Castrol Europe it becomes evident that this spec has anti-foaming agents for high temps. The marketing hype makes it out to be a special in that regard, maybe so. At $18 per liter in the local BMW shop, it has cut into my Buffalo Trace Bourbon and fine cigar budget. Castrol has SAE 75W90 synthetic gear oils that are more reasonable and probably work just as well.
This subject is endless it seems. This is what little bit I've become familiar with as regards the final drive dilemma. One thing I've learned is that "Lifetime" at BMW means 100,000 Kilometers/ 60,000 miles. Hardly a lifetime of riding in Texas or anywhere else in North America. Standing by for incoming. Moose

[Wild Will]

To reiterate something I said long ago, a BMW official (Beeg Honcho) at MC show in SF area when the first "holed" permanently sealed final drives appeared, told me it was "a sales gimmick". Buyers love the term "no maintenance". He agreed with me that particles of metal would fill the scant amount of lifetime oil in the final drive, and that he would, somehow, drain his own and refill it according to "old" practices. He said all BMW care about is that it lasts until the warranty is expired, 36,000 miles.

That's not a good enough answer for me to spend $20 large on a new Bavarian missile. I still love my old school (hahahaha) 1100 series, though, and plan on keeping it in fine fettle until the cows come home.

Hiya Moose! How ya been?

[Optimus Prime]

To reiterate something I said long ago, a BMW official (Beeg Honcho) at MC show in SF area when the first "holed" permanently sealed final drives appeared, told me it was "a sales gimmick". Buyers love the term "no maintenance". He agreed with me that particles of metal would fill the scant amount of lifetime oil in the final drive, and that he would, somehow, drain his own and refill it according to "old" practices. He said all BMW care about is that it lasts until the warranty is expired, 36,000 miles.
Not good a good enough answer for me to spend $20 large on a new Bavarian missile. I still love my old school (hahahaha) 1100 series, though, and plan on keeping it in fine fettle until the cows come home.

Hiya Moose! How ya been?
It's the ever long struggle between marketing, engineering, and consumers. Unfortunately my experience has been that a company can make more money (in the short term at least) by giving the power to marketing and snagging a ton of simpleton or brand focussed consumers. In general only about 3-5% of consumers are interested or purchase driven by the actual engineering and mechanical design. At least those are the numbers I've seen.

That being said, BMW still does a pretty good job of correcting mistakes while giving us something much more than a UJM.

[DarthRider]

Mooseman -
I know you are 100% correct in saying that all "final drive failures" are not created equal. I know that for two reasons...observation and if it wasn't so, *you* would not say it !

Also 100% is this statement from your first post:
"...These sudden ultimate failures appear to make up a relatively small sample of the total number of failures. Not a small problem if you happen be the one with the unexpected failure, as Darth can attest..."

Your first sentence is a paraphrase of what BMW told me during the agony of my 2 total failures..."Any rear drive failures are statistically insignificant..."

Your second sentence drives me to add this (in response to BMW): In Texas we would usually call BMW's statement "Horseshit". I will be delicate and soften it to "Bullshit".

Don't sell me the 2-wheeled version of "The Ultimate Driving Machine", noted, lauded, and marketing-hyped for its' shaft-drive powertrain, then after it - and many others - have catastrophic failures on the road, hide behind statistics.

"Man-up" BMW and do the right thing...fix it. Quick & free unless there is evidence of abuse and/or neglect. Maybe even offer me a loaner after the 2nd failure of the *same parts*. Don't let me be out-of-pocket or even overly-inconvenienced. Maybe even tell me you're sorry. Maybe even admit "there are problems and we are going to fix them!"

Then BMW, while you still have your Big Boy pants on, do whatever it takes to *resolve* the issue, not just Band-Aid it. Totally, once and for all. Don't leave off drain plugs and tell me "don't worry about it", then tell me it's really a good thing 'cause I have to take it apart anyway to change the fluid (after you've changed your mind about that), and while it's apart, I can inspect/lube/replace all the other stuff that is/may be failure-prone, albeit more minor failures compared with the previous ones.

It's pretty sad that BMW relies on their loyalists & independent gurus to devise workarounds & fixes for what a reasonable person would expect them to design into the product. All the while steadfastly denying-denying-denying.

Your dedication and pains-taking research is laudable if regrettable that it is necessary.

Wanna buy a nice R1150R...the rear drive is pre-exploded !?

EDIT: Jason, I'm afraid I must strongly disagree with this statement, the "correcting mistakes" part anyway:
"...That being said, BMW still does a pretty good job of correcting mistakes while giving us something much more than a UJM..."

[Moose]

WW, funny you should ask how I'm doin'. Tomorrow I go in for the buttology exam. Not looking forward to that, plus I have to miss the North Texas Peckerhead social hour at Up N Smoke. Darth would understand. Right in there with final drive failures. Damm, I should just retire and head out your way to get lost on the west coast. And check in with Darth along the way.
Jason is probably right, BMW took new final drive technology and ran too far with it. The marketing pukes have turned the issue over to the dealers. Many are now changing the final drive gear oil as part of the annual service. Not what the customer was originally told or sold. Someone is absorbing that cost. Darth is right too, the problem is now as bad as with old drives, if not worse. Many dealers are caught having to satisfy customers who feel they've been sold a technology that is new and unproven/unimproved.
Changing the gear oil is not a big issue with most of us in that we've had to in the past with earlier models. But we all know, dropping the final drive is, especially for those riders not inclined to post flight the bike and do routine maintenance. WW, 20 big ones does command better performance. And Darth, it sure appears BMW has to step up to the plate sometime soon. You got it right, What were they thinking not having a drain plug installed???? Once the new final was proven, then remove the drain plug if justified. Their next innovation may not be so warmly recevied. Except that the most recent innovation is the installation of a drain plug. :mully:

[AntonLargiader]

After 15k miles and the BB trip, my 06RT developed a leak from the crown seal on the right side of the final drive looking from the rear.
Kind of a reach to call that the crown seal. Unfortunately these bikes are in the position of having confused us with failures on two different designs, so it's easy to get them mixed up. Old drives had crown bearing failure, which was on the wheel side, so let's call that the crown seal. Not a problem on the EVO Paralever models. Their leak is on the 'small' axle seal.


So what to do to preclude leaks? Well, it's back to the 12K final drive and transmission fluid changes.
I think the leak/failure issue has very little to do with the oil viscosity or with changing the oil. With all due respect, the people you cited don't repair stuff like this for a living and AFAIK don't have any firsthand experience with analyzing a failure.


It's pretty sad that BMW relies on their loyalists & independent gurus to devise workarounds & fixes for what a reasonable person would expect them to design into the product.
BMWNA has a communication problem, first and foremost. They are overly worried that anything they say can be used against them so they don't say anything. They sell repair manuals but they don't tell owners that the manual was obsolete halfway through the model run. They rarely tell techs what is going wrong with components, probably because that would get out 'in the wild' and turn into a PR nightmare. They'll talk about the fix, once it becomes a 'feature', but not about the problem.

There is also a shortage of skilled technicians. It's simply the truth. Dealerships with truly talented and skilled techs are either lucky or they work really hard at getting and keeping these people. Some dealerships don't have them and can't get them (or can't keep them). And in the long run, it's not profitable to employ a tech who acts like a scientist. He wouldn't get enough work done. I know; I'm that person and consequently I don't get enough work done when there's something to investigate.

Back to the point, IMO BMW has designed everything needed into the product. Unfortunately they have not designed it into the process. This is where the Japanese have cleaned everyone's clocks in manufacturing. The product is OK, but the process is incredible. Every car is exactly as mediocre as the next, so even if the basic design is only marginal, the reliability will be very good. For this paragraph only I'm speaking as an ex manufacturing process engineer who has worked for Japanese bosses and learned a lot from them.

Wow, I really wasn't going to jump into another final drive thread...

[DarthRider]

Wow, I really wasn't going to jump into another final drive thread...

Yeah, I hear you...and agree.
And the "communications problem" is not new, not by a long-shot. Combine it with an arrogant attitude and low regard for customers, and you get..."another final drive thread".

[Wild Will]

[QUOTE Wow, I really wasn't going to jump into another final drive thread...[/QUOTE]

But, is it not part of your mission to correct the misconstrued assumptions people take for gospel? Your's is a unique position among most BMW aficionados; personally, I've not met another tech who's as fluid with the keyboard and is, truly, a BMW scientist/privateer/renegade/bon vivant/race crew member. It is your karma to jump in and enlighten the teeming masses yearning to be free of pesky final drive grinches. You nailed the problem with BMW, too. I could write far too much about what I've seen from corporate since the Moto ST 8 Hour Daytona in '06. But I won't. What would be the point!

[AntonLargiader]

But, is it not part of your mission to correct the misconstrued assumptions people take for gospel?

I can't change the world by trying to get involved with every thread on every forum. I let a lot of stuff simply slide; if people want to believe something, it's usually fine with me. If people want to get accurate information, they can join the RA and read the OTL. :)

[jamming]

There is also a shortage of skilled technicians. It's simply the truth. Dealerships with truly talented and skilled techs are either lucky or they work really hard at getting and keeping these people. Some dealerships don't have them and can't get them (or can't keep them). And in the long run, it's not profitable to employ a tech who acts like a scientist. He wouldn't get enough work done. I know; I'm that person and consequently I don't get enough work done when there's something to investigate.


Wow, I really wasn't going to jump into another final drive thread...

Anton, please don't take what I'm going to say wrong. I have avoided jumping in here...however..I agree.

I WILL NOT take my bike to a dealer. I'll buy my parts there, but I'll do my own work. I've never been to BMW school, but I've been riding and wrenching them for almost 30 years. Everything from R90's to K bikes, 1100/1150 Oilheads to my current 1200. There are some fine technicians out there. However, it's all about how many hours you "book" every week.

If I had a dealership you would be the FIRST person I called. Your knowledge and reputation is unparalleled. I've known about you for longer than either one of us cares to admit.

I am not the "average" shadetree mechanic. I am trained and work as an Aircraft Mechanic in addition to another non-related job. Most of being a good Technician is understanding how the entire machine works in concert. I have the tools and technical data necessary. A computer reader is in the works.

About BMW final drives, yes, there problems. I guarantee you that my bike is closely watched. I pull the rear wheel every other oil change and look. I give her a though pre-flight EVERY time. I've changed the FD fluid, sent it off for analysis, she's not making metal. Every 3rd Oil change I send the engine oil off the same place I sent the aircraft oil for analysis. So far so good. What a PITA!!!! But I do it. Because I love the motor.

There's a lot of great motorcycles out there. I choose my ST because after 25 years of RS's it seemed a good fit. I love it, I'll keep it.

Will my next new one be a BMW? Maybe? Maybe not. The KTM SuperDuke looks fun as an addition to the ST. So does the GS800...IF it EVER gets here.

So...do you think I could get a job as a BMW wrench? I'm ready to retire from the company I work for.

[Wild Will]

Damm, I should just retire and head out your way to get lost on the west coast. And check in with Darth along the way.

Moose, plan on at least a few days with me, Bro. Slap that canyon brigand and bring him with you, OK?

[Wild Will]

If people want to get accurate information, they can join the RA and read the OTL. :)

EVERYBODY WHO RIDES A BMW SHOULD BE A MEMBER OF BMW RIDERS ASSOCIATION AND READ "ON THE LEVEL". Except self destructive, ill informed cheap asses. Anton's articles are treasures. OK, I'm done now.

[Sir Limpsalot]

I think the leak/failure issue has very little to do with the oil viscosity or with changing the oil.


My thoughts exactly. If "dirty" oil can get to the seal faces then the seal has, by definition, already failed.

If it makes you guys feel any better, BMW (GB) are just as hopeless at customer service as the NA lot seem to be. They have this way about them that I can only describe as "arrogant superiority". I like the machines but sadly can't say the same about the company..

Si.

[DarthRider]

EVERYBODY WHO RIDES A BMW SHOULD BE A MEMBER OF BMW RIDERS ASSOCIATION AND READ "ON THE LEVEL". Except self destructive, ill informed cheap asses.

I've been called better and I've been called worse...but not lately !
I'll assume this was "tongue-in-cheek. :webers:
If I'm wrong...don't tell me, sometimes being "ill informed" is it's own reward.

[Rchop]

I've been called better and I've been called worse...but not lately !
I'll assume this was "tongue-in-cheek. :webers:
If I'm wrong...don't tell me, sometimes being "ill informed" is it's own reward.

That makes 2 of us :webers: LOL

[Wild Will]

Sorry, worded with far too much race week zeal. Let me restate that Anton's articles are worthy of the price of admission IF one works on his own BMW, or merely rides one. I have a file of these should I ever have to tackle something I'm unfamiliar with on my bike of choice.

I aplogize for calling you a cheap ass. I never meant to hurt you.
Mea culpa. I suppose the thick skin I was told was necessary for my survival at the Cafe here has gotten a bit out of hand. Just because two Cafe members write for this magazine is no reason to expect anyone else would be interested in the contents. When I became interested in BMW's in the 80's, I had to do some discovering in order to even find OTL. I've enjoyed it since. I don't consider I've joined a club. I just like the tech articles.


There seems to me to be a lot of BMW bashing of late. Mechanical failures untended by dealers who should care more about customer satisfaction. BMW could and should doo better, or they'll lose customers, as appears to be happening here and around other campfires. I love MOST bikes, and my own BMW experience has been, admittedly, a lucky one for me. I hope my bubble doesn't burst.

[DarthRider]

I aplogize for calling you a cheap ass.

Thanks Will, I appreciate that.
I'll work on the "self destructive, ill informed" part...
But as for Randy, I don't think there's any hope. :linzi:

[Rchop]

Thanks Will, I appreciate that.
I'll work on the "self destructive, ill informed" part...
But as for Randy, I don't think there's any hope. :linzi:

I don't think you could ever call me an "expensive ass" LOL...I think "cheap ass" is a much better description of me:icon_wink:

[Elsie Smith]

EVERYBODY WHO RIDES A BMW SHOULD BE A MEMBER OF BMW RIDERS ASSOCIATION AND READ "ON THE LEVEL". Except self destructive, ill informed cheap asses. Anton's articles are treasures. OK, I'm done now.
Yes, and so are yours! I thoroughly enjoy reading them.

[fganger]

Miss Elsie,

I do agree with you lass.

Stinkin' Frank

[DarthRider]

Miss Elsie,

I do agree with you lass.

Stinkin' Frank


So, Frank...are you telling us you are not a "...self destructive, ill informed cheap ass...?" :058:

[Dirty Doug]

Dave,
Let me be the first to say I know Stinkin' and he's not cheap.....................:pot:

K-Rider
a.k.a Dirty Doug

[DarthRider]

Dave,
Let me be the first to say I know Stinkin' and he's not cheap.....................:pot:

K-Rider
a.k.a Dirty Doug

Dirty Doug -
"Easy" but not "Cheap", is that what you're sayin' ?
He is a well know tart, you know...

[fganger]

Bad Dave, bad, bad Dave,

Now I see that all those bad things people say about you, behind your back, may be true. :nono:

Tisk, tisk

And Wild Will, you need a vacation. WAIT!! You are going on one now. So there you go, you saw a need, which your body craved, and you handled the need appropriately. Nice going. Now I see that all those good things people say about you, behind your back, may be true. :)

Have fun guys

[fnfalman]

Ah, yes, finally Doctor Guru had the chance to done'er up, my Rockster that is. It wasn't the final drive as he thought, or a blown tranny, but the splines went to crap. BUT he will be keeping a tight eye on my final drive. He's also looking into doing away with the ABS system too. That servo-assist crap was and is terrible. I wish I hadn't gotten it but, dammit, it was the only Rockster left in the state of New Mexico at that time.

However, by all that is holy, I took her out last night for the first time in months and everything is forgiven.

[Wild Will]

I think every one of these bikes was assembled differently. Like life itself, it's a roll of the dice. Those Rocksters are cool. BMW should have stuck with that model, maybe produced it in black with white pinstripes.

[DarthRider]

Those Rocksters are cool. BMW should have stuck with that model, maybe produced it in black with white pinstripes.

HEE - HEE ! :028:

[fnfalman]

It would be nice to have a Rockster based on the R1200R but with at least the R1200S engine or better yet HP2 Sport engine. Some buck wild paint schemes like the original Rockster. AND NO ABS, NO TRACTION CONTROL, NO COMPUTER THINGIES!!!

[Deans BMW]

I would like to see something like a /5 but with modern engine, tranny, etc.

[Wild Will]

I would like to see something like a /5 but with modern engine, tranny, etc.

Then buy a black Rockster with white pinstripes. You could sell your Edsel, forget about that new 1200GS Adventure you want with legion electronic demons lying in wait to haunt you, and be free from your interminable "jonesing" (and where the hell did THAT term come from anyway?) as you ride your modern classic boxer to Bear Hollow for an omelette.

Hoon on!

Here's one for you:
http://homepage.mac.com/pepestudio/BMWRockster/index.html

[DarthRider]

...and be free from your interminable "jonesing" (and where the hell did THAT term come from anyway?) on on!




Wikipedia doesn't define it but links it to "drug addiction".
In the context of the Cafe' discussions of new bikes we'd like to have, I think it's Right On, Bro !

The first time I ever heard it was on a Cheech & Chong album...a song called "Basketball Jones".

Anything traceable to The Three Stooges, Archie Bunker or Cheech & Chong is OK in my book...

[1MPH]

and be free from your interminable "jonesing" (and where the hell did THAT term come from anyway?)


WW, I always thought it was a variation of "keeping up with the Joneses".

[NoRRmad]

Many years ago in New York City, there was a street called Great Jones Alley, renowned for the high availibility of heroin dealers thereon. It was called Great Jones to differentiate it from nearby Jones Alley, which wasn't as wide. (Great Jones Street survives today.)

People going downtown to score said "I'm Jonesin'."

That's my story and I'm stickin' to it.

[AntonLargiader]

It would be nice to have a Rockster based on the R1200R but with at least the R1200S engine or better yet HP2 Sport engine. Some buck wild paint schemes like the original Rockster. AND NO ABS, NO TRACTION CONTROL, NO COMPUTER THINGIES!!!

Unless you've ridden the R12R and have decided you want more power, hold your judgment. The R12R uses the RT/ST motor which isn't very far off the S motor, and the ergonomics are closer to the Rockster than the R11R models were. I think it wouldn't be too hard to put even lower bars and maybe the K12R headlight on it; was that what you had in mind?

Rchop to the courtesy phone...

[fnfalman]

Unless you've ridden the R12R and have decided you want more power, hold your judgment. The R12R uses the RT/ST motor which isn't very far off the S motor, and the ergonomics are closer to the Rockster than the R11R models were. I think it wouldn't be too hard to put even lower bars and maybe the K12R headlight on it; was that what you had in mind?

Rchop to the courtesy phone...


I've ridden the R12R before and I liked it. Yes, it has more oomph than the previous Roadster but it still needs more oomph, especially for a Rockster version.

[DarthRider]

Can't have too much oomph.
I recommend black with white pinstripes...

[Wild Will]

I consider the R1200R in black like the beauty Geechie got to be the incarnation of the bike Dean is jonesing for. By the way, thanks for explaining the definition to some one who doesn't get out much.

One thing I have always loved on motorcycles besides stainless steel spokes and raised shoulder alloys (I know, not practical) is round headlamps. Like the one on the new R12R. Just needs some classic pinstripes like all the slashes used to wear proudly.

BMW have already built your modern R75/5, Dean. I'll take mine without an antenna ring, ATC or ESA. An R90 esque bikini fairing might look striking, and rear sets with race bars would enhance predatory profile.

[DarthRider]

Sure wish I could turn my R1150R in for a new R1200R...the bike the 50R should have been to start with. There are enough grampaw bikes out there already !
Black, with silver stripes, polished stainless spokes on shouldered Akront rims, 125 HP, 95 Ft. Lbs....I can dig it.

[socalrob]

. . . Back to the point, IMO BMW has designed everything needed into the product. Unfortunately they have not designed it into the process. This is where the Japanese have cleaned everyone's clocks in manufacturing. The product is OK, but the process is incredible. Every car is exactly as mediocre as the next, so even if the basic design is only marginal, the reliability will be very good. For this paragraph only I'm speaking as an ex manufacturing process engineer who has worked for Japanese bosses and learned a lot from them.

Wow, I really wasn't going to jump into another final drive thread...

That strikes me as about the best explanation I've ever read as to why German engineering (IMO, all the German car & bike companies suffer from this about equally) seems to fall short in reliability when compared to Japanese assembly.


Back to final drives, at least from reading Advrider, from hearing first hand accounts of 1200 series FD failures, seems to me the jury is in and the 1200's are at least as failure prone as the 1150's. That just shocks the hell out of me. BMW's shaft drive is an iconic part of the bike. I am amazed that its not bullet proof.

As the owner of an 07 GSA, I pretty much ignore it all, love the bike, but will be pissed IF the FD leaves me stranded far from home. Oh well. Sure would be nice if there was more open info on the whole issue.

[Rchop]

I would like to see something like a /5 but with modern engine, tranny, etc.




Rchop to the courtesy phone...


Hmmm, an "S" motor in this bad boy would be cool :023:


http://www.frsengineering.com/TS7.jpg

Add Vanzen's new frame...double cool!!

[Wild Will]

But where would one place all the computer stuff? I maintain that a simply rendered 1200R "worked" to appear as retro as possible, would fill the bill and ride like a properly suspended (not on those cheap shocks please) modern BMW retro machine should. My hot rod Chevy is beyond cool, until a bone stock Mazda (sic) passes it in a highway 1 corner. Modern suspension, upon roads where it isn't merely wasted upon the straights, is superb. It enhances the contact patch, elevating it's style to feel almost sexy. Ah, suspension!

[Rchop]

Computer Stuff??? We don't need no stinkin' computer stuff...throw away all that computer stuff and give me a good set of carbs :028:

[DarthRider]

Not really wishing to resurrect this crusty old ghost, but some have wondered what a failed rear drive *looks* like. What is it that actually lets go ? As this is an ongoing issue, here ya' go...
In reviewing the ride reports of my recent Texas Adventure Ride, one of the guys posted this pic of his R1150GS's final drive from last year's event (he rides a Honda with chain now). He had not noticed the black oil drooling or felt any vibration until after it was too late...he was on a pavement stretch at 70 MPH, well leaned over when he heard "a terrible noise" and the rear wheel started wobbling badly, like it had come loose from the hub. He managed to "save it" and here's what he found when he removed the wheel.
I never got to see this on mine...the BMW dealer was "asked" not to show it to me.

http://firstcoastphoto.smugmug.com/photos/290364407_FAkpi-L.jpg

Mine first started vibrating in the footpegs. It got worse and when I stopped pooled black oil under the wheel. I backed it up and she said, "GRAUNCH !" This guy got the same weasel ride I did..."There has been no problem". Wanta guess who had to pay for it ?

[Capt. Blackadder]

Not a pretty sight there, Dave... and I've seen all too many of these photos on several websites. I changed the oil in my final drive today and everything looked really good. A few really tiny silvery flakes, a little bit of black fuzz on the magnetic drain plug, but the oil looked clear, brand new in fact. Peering into the fill hole with a flashlight, the light wear on the gear teeth looked nice and even, so it looks like this particular final drive was shimmed correctly at the factory. At least I hope I have one of the good ones. The last thing I need right now is for my bike to break its rear ankle.

Incidentally, I'm using BMW 80W-90 and changing it every 3,000 miles. Maybe it's overkill but I'd like to keep a close eye on this and the oil is cheap anyway.

[DarthRider]

Baldur, that's the first pic of a failed one I've seen, but I haven't been looking for them either.
From what I can learn, "luck of the draw" on shimming or assembly torquing with special wrenches seems to be the problem(s). What bothers me most though, is the failures are still occurring on the 1150s & 1200s too, seemingly on bikes with all levels of use & care.
I don't know what else we can do other than what you're doing, watching closely for death-rattle vibrations from that area...and hoping for good luck.

[socalrob]

FD's are old school problems. Go over to GSpot on Advricer & you will see that the dreaded EWS (engine won't start) error (antennae ring on ignition switch appears to fail to read chipped RFID key) has swept the FD issues under the rug. This error frequently results in a towed to dealer bike.

Good thing about the EWS error is that a rider can carry a tiny spare ring ($85) that can be plugged in at roadside. BMW has been through maybe 5 part numbers in the past year. I still waiting to buy my spare when the part number iterations smooth out.

Just noticed today a tiny bit of dust stuck around the seal of my FD. Think I need to wash the bike & keep an eye on it.

[Optimus Prime]

FD's are old school problems. Go over to GSpot on Advricer & you will see that the dreaded EWS (engine won't start) error (antennae ring on ignition switch appears to fail to read chipped RFID key) has swept the FD issues under the rug. This error frequently results in a towed to dealer bike.

Good thing about the EWS error is that a rider can carry a tiny spare ring ($85) that can be plugged in at roadside. BMW has been through maybe 5 part numbers in the past year. I still waiting to buy my spare when the part number iterations smooth out.

Just noticed today a tiny bit of dust stuck around the seal of my FD. Think I need to wash the bike & keep an eye on it.
Interesting note about the EWS. I have two friends, one an HD rider and the other a Duc. They have similar chipped keys and such. However, they also have an over-ride code put in through the turn signal buttons. Both friends said their dealers were very insistent that they know how to do the over-ride since they will likely need to do it at some point. If HD and Ducati can think of a simple over-ride code for what I would consider a "catastrophic system failure" (one that leaves you completely SOL) why not uber-smart BMW?

This is a serious head-scratcher for me.

[DarthRider]

Any comment I might make would only serve to further sully my already dubious reputation in the land of the blue beanie propeller.
So I shall only say I am going for a ride on my chain drive Triumph or my Kawasaki with a real key...:028:

[socalrob]

Ah, but Dave, with any luck my dusty seal will need replacing under ubber BMW warranty & I will get a FD oil change for free!

Isn't it Kaw that has the new sport/touring bike that reads the key while its in your pocket? Seems like that could glitch pretty easy too.

If you are riding a KLR, why not get something totally reliable, like a Mountain Bike? Total reliability, cheap (well there are MB's that cost more than KLR's) and not too big of a performance hit (1 Darth power for MB v. 30HP for the KLR?)

[DarthRider]

Rob, what makes you think you will get a warranty fix ? How can you expect then to fix, I mean pay for, a problem where Der ees no probvlem ? :028:
As for the free FD oil change, that's easy...just get 6 or 7 buddies to come over and stand 'er up on the back wheel and drain 'er right out. But why would you want to change lifetime oil anyway ?
What ? Kawasaki is pandering to riders who are too lazy to reach into their pocket for a key ?! Another bubble is burst...
Did anyone actually *ask* for that "feature" ?
Hey, we have a 703cc KLR with 70 HP at the wheel and it's still being developed. It has a butt-load of torque too, don't know the number, but that's where it's at anyway.
1 Darth Power = The amount of energy required to open 1 sack of pretzels before a cold beer turns tepid.