Leather vs Textile vs Mesh

[Promethean]

Now that we've got temperatures in the 90s, I use my Joe Rocket Mesh all the time. The only time it changes to a Meteor 4 is when I suspect it might rain.

In my mind, leather distinguishes itself from textile in a few ways.


Slide tests seem to indicate that leather lasts longer in terms of distance while sliding as compared to textile.
Textile is probably a one-slide garment which is not really salvageable after a sustained slide for a significant distance. Leather may fare better and may not be too badly ravaged by the pavement.
The Meteor 4 that I use is bulky and feels like a ship's sail when I'm doing higher speeds and also restricts my ability to "turn my head like an owl" when going into corners as the MSF instructors recommend. :D
I've melted one of my older jackets on the header pipes within seconds (stupidity I know). Leather is probably better.



The question at hand is, do Mesh jackets offer any protection beyond impact resistance?

The loops or the mesh have the potential to snag on the rougher pavements and shred or even possibly melt into the skin when sliding at a higher speed.

Any comments, insights or suggestions are welcome. :)

[supermotoC]

The question at hand is, do Mesh jackets offer any protection beyond impact resistance?

No.


The loops or the mesh have the potential to snag on the rougher pavements and shred or even possibly melt into the skin when sliding at a higher speed.

Ouch. You don't get to pick the speed at which you fall/crash.

There's your answer. Oh, and BTW, if it's "mesh", it's textile. Mesh stuff does what it does - it passes air through a mesh of plastic (nylon of some type), that will melt at a pretty low temperature, compared to leather (or flesh). If you have armor in your gear (mesh or leather), any impact will be spread out using the armor to accomplish this feat. The other bad thing (besides impacts) in falls/crashes is the grinding/friction issue. Jeans will basically explode on impact, and grind away in a 5 foot slide. Textiles tend to melt once they heat up, and since they are next to your skin......

If 1.0 & 1.2 mil leather is good enough for GP racers who fall a lot (compared to us), it's good enough for me. They have to be burning up in those 1 piece suits, but I guess they like their skin graft-free. If textiles were good protection, I'm sure someone in MotoGP would be "sponsored" to wear it.

I have a fully perforated Kushitani jacket (used, eBay, $130) that is as cool as a T-shirt (you can see through it when I hold it up to the light), and weighs as much as a jean jacket. I have another Kushitani jacket (ebay, $160) that is perforated on the fronts of my arms and chest, but solid in the "grinding" areas. And I have a zip together 2-piece from Dainese that has zip vents to regulate airflow ($400 on close-out). All three are all leather. The fully-perfed Kushi jacket has foam "impact" points, where the other two have serious hard armor. I had a JR mesh jacket when I first returned to riding on the street, and I saw one come back to a dlr after a low speed tumble, and I couldn't tell what it was. Leather, baby. It makes you look mean, feel mean, and it protects. That Darien stuff may look good/work good, but if you fall off & skid along the macadam @ 65mph, you're going to wish it was leather.
I'd rather buy new leathers than E.R. time.



check out my riding weather

http://img121.imagevenue.com/loc492/th_28028_dallasheat_492lo.jpg (http://img121.imagevenue.com/img.php?image=28028_dallasheat_492lo.jpg)

[Wild Will]

offers impact protection, and if the impact's hard enough, it'll help little. Aerostich suits provide great protection in a slide at up to 80 mph. I know this.
Unlike leather, it's easily repairable.

Want to buy a brand new full race suit, perforated, OR a custom made gorgeous Bates 2 piece leather suit? I never wear them now that I'm fully convinced about fabric. I do wear the leather race suit on the track; it's perforated and still hot. And leather is very heavy compared with fabric.

There is really nothing that can fully protect you in an impact, so always choose the box that says "low side", IMO, and hope that there are no guardrails in your direction.

NOT ALL mesh gear is the same quality; it passes air, but just might disappear when drug across the cheese grater road.

[DarthRider]

Many mesh jackets (like FirstGear) are made of a "ballistic poly" material that will tear easier than nylon but will not melt from friction. Some (like new Vanson mesh) are made of nylon that that will melt from sliding friction but has more tear resistance.
They both offer pretty good protection, so just decide whether you are going to lo-side or hi-side and choose accordingly.
Next up the scale in protection is a ballistic poly with external leather pads/patches, like FirstGear "Leather Mesh". This is my summer jacket and I am comfortable in both temperature and with protection level.
Next up the scale is perforated leather.
Next up is full leather, especially Kangaroo hide (really).
Add armor to any of them and you get MUCH better impact protection and better slide protection, IF you are sliding on the armored part(s).
It's all trade-offs & compromise...comfort, protection, what kind of protection, and cost.
All are MUCH better than a long-sleeved shirt!
Whichever type you get, use the best armor you can.
I'm not pushing FirstGear...it's only one of many very good brands of apparel, along with some crap. I just know more about it since we sell it and I get to "go to school" on it.

[Bones]

Tales from the "ER."

Mesh is better than a T shirt. Slightly.

Textile, if well made, is very protective, durable and will keep you from significant skin damage IF the seams stay intact.

Leather, even if perforated, is the best. Solid is of course the very best, but perfed high quality leather is still outstanding. Contact areas should be solid.

I will admit that I get cold before anyone else does and get hot way after anyone else does. That being said, I have a perfed leather, armored jacket that I ride with in the summer when it is hot, and when moving, I have never been in hot in it, even with temps in the 90's. That is what I ride in. That or something even tougher, like a solid leather Vanson jacket. Or a BMW Savannah II, or Aerostich Roadcrafter.

As most of you know, I crash tested my Vanson Volante II one piece race suit on the track last year at about 75 mph. A hundred feet of sliding or so later, the leather had minor scuffs in a few areas, but was otherwise just fine. I had NO road rash or skin irritation at all. The only injury was my fractured scapula, but that will happen if you fall full body weight directly on your shoulder at 75 mph.

I don't ride with mesh, just because to me it would be similar to riding with not very much on. That is just me. It is still a lot better than the sleevless t shirts and sandals I see a lot of sportbike riders using around here lately.


Jeff

[Promethean]

Hmmm....leather it is then. It goes on the shopping list next year. Thanks all for your inputs.

[JCsman]

I'm not pushing FirstGear...it's only one of many very good brands of apparel, along with some crap. I just know more about it since we sell it and I get to "go to school" on it.

Dave:

If you could, I'd like to hear you expand upon this.

I use mesh gear here in Alabama during the (oh, say 10 or so months of) hot weather. My mesh pants are First Gear Air 2 and they're a wonder. Judy's jacket is First Gear as well.

But I'm thinking of adding to my mesh collection. It would be helpful to get your opinion on the "crap" versus "very good" brands. Fit and style are too subjective to count, but I'd really like to avoid the ones with poor seams, poor protection, etc.

[DarthRider]

Ooooh Bill..you're putting me on the spot!
In Joe Rocket's early days, in addition to the squidly "Ricky Racer" name, they had some problems. Their mesh had such large open spaces that bugs would get in and stay there until they die! Then stay on forever. Even the gnarliest GS riders were whimpering like schoolgirls about the smell and that you could NOT get them out. Fortunately that was fixed but you still see some very "open" weave mesh on some cheaper jackets.
That's a funny anecdote but I know it's not what you are concerned about.
I can't give you many specific brand names as I'm not involved in evaluating competing products, but I am frequently involved in FirstGear product evaluation...fun stuff. It's not my "official job", I just help out with it, as do some of the other experienced riders here. That's one of the problems in the motorcycle technical apparel industry...a lot of it is "designed" by "stylists" who don't have a clue. That's why we have vents that don't work, cuff tabs that pull the wrong way, cheap "cosmetic" armor, etc. When I say "we", I mean the industry, not any one particular brand.
Virtually all motorcycle apparel, with very few exceptions is made "offshore"...China, Taiwan, Korea, India, Pakistan, Indonesia, Mexico, Viet Nam, New Jersey...the list goes on and is growing. Korea is sub'ing out to China! China is sub'ing to Taiwan!
Nothing wrong with any of this, per se...never underestimate the ingenuity of a 9 year old Chinese convict! You can get very good quality and very poor quality. You get what you pay for but repeatability is very not so good. Lots of apparel coming through with sleeves or legs of very different lengths, that sort of thing. Color variations all over the place. Material & fastener substitutions. Open seams.
We all have these problems, it's the new nature of the business and one of the new "costs of doing business". Cheap labor is sometimes very expensive.
If you get any brand's garment with these kind of problems, don't think too poorly of the brand, design or technology...this stuff just happens. Return it for exchange. Always check everything very closely.
This is also true for leathers.
Cortech looks good to me. Most of Joe looks OK but I still have a problem with the name and their invention of the "Power Ranger" styling. Neither quality or design related of course, just marketing & styling, the 2-headed monster.
Pricing is ultra competitive with technical gear. The market has driven us, and others, to sub-$100 mesh armored jackets. We have armored mesh from $89.95 to the $199.95 Leather Mesh-Tex that I wear. It has external leather "patches" on impact points & spine, plus extra padding over the CE armor.
We also have a $94.95 "pull-over" armored mesh lightweight. I have one of these but don't wear it much.
Ballistic polyester is our material choice as it will not melt & burn in a slide like nylon. Others hype their nylon as it is stronger for impacts than poly and they claim it is more tear resistant but we don't think so.
With any brand, always get, or upgrade to, CE approved armor. Dues to market driven margin pressure, many come with EVA foam armor, or even just crappy thing foam "padding".
Hybrids are becoming very popular...leather with perf or mesh panels, high-Denier (thickness) textiles with mesh panels, "convertible" textiles with mesh panels that can be closed off. Wind proof liners, water-resistant or proof liners. Insulated liners. Lots of variations.
By the way, the industry definition of "water-proof" is just that, the fabric will not pass water and the seams are sealed. The garment should not leak at all, even in continuous hard rain.
"Water-resistant" is water-proof fabric but the seams are not sealed, cheaper to make & buy. The garment will resist water incursion in light and/or brief rains but likely not all day or hard rain.
Waterproof zippers are becoming common and really work! Older styles rely on flaps & Velcro behind zippers for waterproofing. The snowmobile guys have had waterproof zippers a long time.
GoreTex is a waterproof membrane that will allow water vapor to pass out from the body. Excellent stuff! "HyperTex, ShellTex" and other variants are the same membrane but has not been submitted to Gore Labs for testing & certification. They certify the entire garment, not just the membrane. Ii is expensive, thus the higher price for Goretex. The variants should, but may/may not work as well as GoreTex. But are cheaper.
Bill, I don't know if this rambling discourse will help you, I know it did not really answer your question.
If it were me, I would avoid any brand's low-end stuff...it's cheap for a reason and this includes leather as well.
Leather is not necessarily better than textile or even mesh, even though leather loyalists tend to talk about it as though it is. Just visit a camel-piss leather stand sometime at a rally and take a close look at their $80.00 jackets. And the smell of those places? Camel piss, used in the tanning process. At least that's the industry "old wive's tale" about them, who knows?
Avoid large-opening mesh and not just for the bugs! It's weaker. A heavier jacket is stringer, all else being equal.
Consider the Leather-Mesh. Get good armor. Stick with well-know brand names.
Cortec and Tecniks (sp?) seem very substantial.
If you haven't, take a look at fnfalman's thread on his Aprilia getting totalled. He has some pics of mesh & textile gear so you can see how it typically performs.
The best thing I like about mesh? it makes ATGATT do-able in extremely hot climates. Before mesh I just quit riding in August as I couldn't take the heat in leathers, even vented ones, and textiles weren't much better. I would sneak out for a while in a long-sleeved shirt or just not ride, neither an acceptable alternative.

[working guy]

I appreciate the shared knowledge and opinions of those who have personal experience with a variety of products. But it gets real warm down here in south Georgia in the summer. And in the spring and autumn also.
My Firstgear mesh jacket -reasonably comfortable in hot weather-burned a hole when I foolishly rested the sleeve against the hot tailpipe. I doubt that sliding 75 yards on asphalt would generate enough heat to approach the temperature of the tailpipe.
But I am guessing.
Who has data on the melting point of nylon or other mesh and fabric materials, with respect to the temperatures attained in road injuries?
Also--abrasion resistance would seem to be quantifiable--that is analyzed scientifically with comparisons of leather vs various synthetics. Some synthetics can resist bullets. Has that been done, and are the results available?
I guess I am asking about Consumer Reports type analysis. Anybody have access to such information?

Steve

[DarthRider]

Steve -
Motorcycle Consumer News did some testing about 3 years ago, you might be able to track it down.
You probably know this but your FG jacket is polyester, not nylon.

[supermotoC]

expensive, but what's worth buying that ISN'T?

http://www.kushitani.com/pro/0htm/jacket_htm/k0557.htm

http://www.kushitani.com/pro/k-0557/k0557c.jpg

[DarthRider]

And when I move away from this effin' humidity, that's what I will have. Or a Vanson.
But in the meantime I will wear my FG mesh. Everyday. If I had that Kushi now, I would still skip riding in August.
I had a cheaper perf leather jacket before the mesh. It flowed more air than straight leather of course, but much less than mesh. Unacceptable. The somewhat higher risk level of the mesh *is* acceptable.
For me.

[supermotoC]

I have a constant ebay search (automated) looking for any Kushitani products, just because of the level of quality & the GIANT discount when you buy used. My airflow II jacket is lighter than a jean jacket, and while obviously being more protective, it flows air better than one of those JR "Phoenix" mesh jackets (I tried one). The Vanson stuff is also top shelf, but more than 2X the weight (thicker hides), and just as $$$ (dunno about the airflow of the fully perfed ones). The Kushitani GPS glove is the best glove I've ever had, and they show up on ebay fairly often (list price $275!!).

[DarthRider]

Great idea, that auto eBay search!

[MRB]

Hi All

Here on the Gold Coast (Australia) the weather is warm to hot and humid for 9-10 months of the year. I wear a Japanese "Hit Air" mesh jacket with armor and of course the built in air bag impact protection.http://www.hitairaustralia.com/jackets.htm
While I am sure it wont save me in every accident I believe its a worthwhile safeguard. Their vests are used by several motorcycle police forces (Japan, Spain, Tiawan etc). I am sure leather is better for abrasion but there are too many unfriendly objects, guard rails, trees, motor vehicles etc that get in the way and the air bag impact protection has to help.

Martin

[working guy]

Darth-
No, I certainly did not know Firstgear mesh is polyester, not nylon.
Now I do.
Thanks
Steve

[DarthRider]

Most of the industry has backed away from nylon, Vanson Mesh is the only one I know for sure is still nylon but there may be others.

[slipknot]

When I worked in a shop I got to see rider's gear after crashing. The First Gear mesh jackets are good to about 30 mph. This is the speed at which the rider told me he hit the pavement. Taking into consideration the possible exageration of speed the jacket was beginning to come apart.
The riders with racing leathers: one rider hit a car at about 100 (drag racing- the subcompact pulled out in front of him. His bike hit the rear quarter panel, blew out all the windows, and he flew quite a distance and then tumbled and slid for a while. His leathers held together and he survived with a broken leg and arm. Was shopping for a new bike two weeks later.
Kevlar has more tear resistance tan even the racing grade leathers by about 50%. Kevlar mesh should do well although I have yet to test mine. The padding does cut down on the air flow but I can live with that. A hot day is hot even without the gear. My kevlar mesh is made by CyclePort and is much more comfortable than the Aerostitch suits I've tried.

[DarthRider]

Slipknot -
Good info and thanks for the post!
How 'bout some info on you in your Profile?
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