Integral brakes on 2007 model BMWs

[Deans BMW]

This copied from a post by Paul Mihalka on the Sport touring forum.

This is how they will work: The hand lever works the front brake directly without any assistance or gimmicks. Same for the pedal working the rear brake. There is no hydraulic connection between front and rear. For integration the front brake activates a servo pump that puts pressure into the rear brake circuit. If anything in the servo system or ABS system fails you are without integration and ABS but with full power 100% independent activation of front and rear brakes. Traction control, if installed, will work by reducing ignition advance first and cutting fuel injection next, if needed. It can be switched off.

[socalrob]

Dean,

That matches with the info I read. I put up a post about it a few days ago. I'm not thrilled that a fault in the servo would disable the ABS on the front wheel. IMHO BMW seems to be making their ABS systems so that any fault anywhere disables the whole thing. The rear brakes don't contribute a whole lot to panic stops, I'd rather know for sure that the ABS was not going to suddenly turn off in the middle of hard braking & leave the front wheel locked up. In a panic stop I guess it would not be a good thing to rely on the ABS part of the brakes being there. Doesn't make sense to me.

It is true that residule brakes should be as good as fully operational ABS brakes, just without the integration or ABS. I supose on the new system if you don't like ABS you could just pull a fuse, oh wait, they have an on off switch now too don't they.

Any word on how much the ABS system weighs? Also, any word on whether or not the 2007 R1200ST will have the R1200R ABS (which I assume will be on the R1200RT) or the R1200S ABS system? I think it would be a smart move if BMW gave the ST the S brakes.

[Deans BMW]

My problem is that after over 50 years of riding, I can't slam on the front brakes in a panic situation no matter how panic it may be. My reflex is to brake hard with modulation, all done with out any conscience effort at all.

[socalrob]

Touche!

Good point Dean. Maybe no ABS is better. Of course I doubt I have 50 years left to learn. I'd be 98.

[DarthRider]

"...My problem is that after over 50 years of riding, I can't slam on the front brakes in a panic situation no matter how panic it may be. My reflex is to brake hard with modulation, all done with out any conscience effort at all..."

Dean-O, this is the best thing I ever read about this controversy. I do not see it as a "problem" however, rather a big advantage, acquired the hard way...through trial, error, failure and success. And experience. I only have 49 years but I totally agree with you.
Wish I had said that...

[Ed K]

It can be switched off.

Dean,

Both Traction and ABS are switched on or off simulatenously, or independently?

Thanks,

[Deans BMW]

Both Traction and ABS are switched on or off simulatenously, or independently?



Don't know, all I know is that if the lovely and gracious Mz Pam were to ever get a motorcycle, I would insist that it have both traction control and ABS, no question at all.

[Dallara]

Dean said:




"My problem is that after over 50 years of riding, I can't slam on the front brakes in a panic situation no matter how panic it may be. My reflex is to brake hard with modulation, all done with out any conscience effort at all."




Wow... I really mean that... Wow.

Then Dave said:




"Dean-O, this is the best thing I ever read about this controversy. I do not see it as a "problem" however, rather a big advantage, acquired the hard way...through trial, error, failure and success. And experience. I only have 49 years but I totally agree with you.
Wish I had said that..."



Double Wow.

I agree with Dave, 100% and beyond, Dean. Absolutely the best description of what I have often attempted to say on the subject, but never did so as succinctly, concisely, or eloquently.

As Dave said, I "wish I had said that"...

Outstanding. :eusa_clap: :eusa_clap: :eusa_clap: :eusa_clap: :eusa_clap: :eusa_clap: :eusa_clap: :eusa_clap: :eusa_clap: :eusa_clap: :eusa_clap: :eusa_clap: :eusa_clap: :eusa_clap: :eusa_clap: :eusa_clap: :eusa_clap:

Thank you, Dean. My hat's off to you.

Cheers!

Allan (Dallara - NAABSCD)

[DarthRider]

My problem is that after over 50 years of riding, I can't slam on the front brakes in a panic situation no matter how panic it may be. My reflex is to brake hard with modulation, all done with out any conscience effort at all.

Mr. Kline, I nominate this quotation (with credits) for our home page Quote Section...it's that good. Might sub "conscious" for "conscience" though.
Dean-O won't care...if he gave a damn about proper word choice he wouldn't hang out with me.

[geechie]

Yeah, but just to be ever-so-slightly contrary, I nominate the following:


...all I know is that if the lovely and gracious Mz Pam were to ever get a motorcycle, I would insist that it have both traction control and ABS, no question at all.

That... says a lot.

George

[DarthRider]

Yeah, but just to be ever-so-slightly contrary, I nominate the following:

...all I know is that if the lovely and gracious Mz Pam were to ever get a motorcycle, I would insist that it have both traction control and ABS, no question at all.

That... says a lot.

George

It does say a lot...but what it also says to me is: "Hey, ve have a great motorcycle vor Pam, Peg & Betty, but sorry...ve have nothing for Dean, George und Dave."
And/or...: "Yah, ve have provided enable/disable svitches but you schtill must pay for dat other schtuff you do not vant! Und you vill LIKE IT, Amerikaner!
Vhy do ve do dis, you ask? Becuase VE CAN!"

Nein danke.

[supermotoC]

Vee haf vays uf meking you talk!
But first, you must sign zee PAPERS!

But really, if you're not buying one of these, who cares if they are semi-integrated? And, if you ARE buying one, you have no choice but to get partially integrated brakes. Once one of us gets one, let's ALL go visit him (or her) and make our own determinations.

I can't wait until 2 wheel drive is an option, like this Yamaha 450 SM bike:

http://pictures.motorbikes.be/superbiker04/800/CIMG0026.jpg
http://pictures.motorbikes.be/superbiker04/800/CIMG0027.jpg

This bike (from Yamaha) starts out as a WRF450 2Trac dirt bike.
$12,000 (USD), and only available in France.

http://www.yamaha-motor.fr/produits/motos/enduros/wr450f_2-trac.jsp?view=gallery

[DarthRider]

You know, my imaginination & experience are good enough that I can "feel" what the dirt vesrion of that would be like...but I can not even imagine the Super Moto version.
I just know I'd love it!

[socalrob]

For the other side of the coin, as a rider with far fewer years of experience, the following that I found posted on advrider is why I most likely will have ABS brakes on my next road bike:


Good Bye Ian.

Sunday, June 18th 2006.. My best friend and riding buddy of 20 years, Ian from Victoria BC and I are riding down Hwy 3, 4 miles before hitting Hwy 36 to Eureka on the CA coast..
The sun is high, the road glorious and the twisties we have ridden through the last 3 days from South East Oregon to California were what makes us motorcyclists scream with joy in our helmets.

He is riding his 2003 Suzuki SV1000 and I am on my 2004 R1150R.. We are coming out of Weaverville Ca between Hayforks and Peanut California when a fawn jumps in front of Ian.
I am about 60-70 feel behind him and we are going about 45 MPH.. He hits the binders and the rear and of the bike takes off..
He falls head first on is head and bends his head and neck backward. Snapped his neck right there and then. The bike’s tail end lands on his neck right below his helmet and rams into his spine..

I stop, crawl on the ground and he is gone.. The coroner tells me that he did not suffer.

Now after riding back home by myself for almost 3 days. I am trying to make sense of this.
This was the hardest and longest ride home I have done in 30 years of riding. Phoning his wife and also my friend to tell her the news was the hardest thing.

Turns out he never touched the deer!
Looking back at this video of my friend losing his life now playing 24 hours a day in my head, I can promise you this..

He would have never died had he had ABS brakes..

I miss him. I miss him a lot and I will always miss him.. You know when you have the perfect riding buddy and friend.. I knew it and now I lost him.


He leaves a wife, 2 kids and 3 grand kids behind.. And we, as motorcyclists have lost one of the best ambassadors we have ever had.
Thanks to those who stopped on the side to help. Cheryl Gmoss and her HD rider friends.
All of them riding bikes!!! Stopped and helped in ways I never had experienced.. And just for the records they were all on HD’s
Just to show hey???
As well to Rachael She could not be more than 19 and all new i am sure to a scene like this.. Your hugs and touches will always be with me.
You were al angels sent to me at that horrendous time.

Be careful out there. And let’s remember that even though he died doing what he loved most and did not suffer.. it would have been better if he had been 100. Not 60!


God speed Ian!!!!

Thank you for your friendship, your life shared with me and the pride you gave me by making me able to call you my best friend..


I will miss you always..


PS Look down on me ( And us) when you can, and when it is my turn to go, I hope you will escort me out ,and into where you are at.

I know you already know that!

But I would have done anything to keep you here.

[supermotoC]

As I've said one billion times before, ABS is absolutely a benefit, but not necessarily to all riders or in all situations. We can all spout how we're better than ABS, how it's no good for the track, yadda yadda yadda. Just like some people will eschew "traction control" because it already exists in the form of your right wrist. Whatever.

If ABS saved your life, or the life of anyone you knew or met, just once, would that be worth it?

[Dallara]

But...

And I truly do hate being the devil's advocate here given the story and its situation...

One, we honestly do not know if the outcome would have been one iota different if the bike in question had been equipped with ABS...

Two, how do we know that if the bike had been equipped with ABS, and he didn't lock a wheel, that he wouldn't have simply plowed into the deer?

We can all play these games all day long, but like Dean said in another thread, for some of us we never just slam on the brakes... we can't, because we have programmed ourselves to apply the brakes hard, with modulation, no matter what the situation.

And I hate to say it, but in the story the writer says the rider in question "hits the binders and the rear and (sic) of the bike takes off.." Well, no offense intended to anyone, anywhere gentlemen, but it's obvious the guy locked the rear wheel. I will leave each of you to determine in his own way what that means in this context.

Man, oh man... Am I sorry another rider passed away, and I feel deeply for his friends, and especially for his family...

But using this story as a means to propogandize and promote ABS is akin to advocating trigger locks, assault weapon bans, and gun control because someone had a hunting accident and shot himself.

Okay, guys... Turn the flames on. I've got the nomex on and I'm ready for it.

Allan (Dallara - NAABSCD)

[DarthRider]

Just a simple request from one Cafe Bro to the other Cafe Bros...

We read the tragic story of one rider losing his best friend.
We read one pro-ABS response.
We read one anti-ABS response.

I'm sitting here with tears in my eyes and a lump in my throat because what that rider wrote to his friend was so similar to what I wrote my to friend Randy the day I lost him. It brought it all back just like on that day.

Just out of respect for those guys, could we please continue any ABS debates on a new thread. Not here.
Please.

Thanks,

[Dallara]

Sounds good to me, Dave...

And I will try to refrain, but this thread was originally about "Integral Brakes on 2007 model BMW's". Maybe the post about the fallen rider should have been in another, new thread... Not dropped into this one.

That said, and out of respect to the rider, and your wishes, I will back away from it.

There will be plenty of other threads to argue the merits/demerits of braking systems.

Allan (Dallara - NAABSCD)

[DarthRider]

Thanks Allan.
You're right of course, about what this thread is/was about.
I guess I sort of "hijacked" it with my post, sorry.
It just got to me.

[socalrob]

Dave,

In retrospect I agree. I first read that post in Advrider some time ago, & I had forgotten the emotional impact it made on me at the time also. Even as I posted it here I had a little voice in myself wondering if it was in good form to do so, I should have listened, it is a heart rendering read, especially if your blindsided by it. Sorry. Allan, thanks for the restraint.

[DarthRider]

It's OK Rob...this is just a part of it that we all have to face and deal with.
With me it started when I was 14 and riding my 50CC Sears catalog Puch Moped. My best friend Charles Sibley was "throwing his papers" on a sunny Fall Friday afternoon when a woman ran a stop sign and t-boned him on his Cushman scooter. His un-helmeted head hit the curb and busted like a mellon, killing him instantly. He was 14 years old too...and my "first".

I think it even helps to read these things and talk about them from time to time. It makes us think and reflect and get better at surviving.

I guess everyone is reading Will's Muddy Waters thread along these lines. There are some good strategies coming out of that.