trouble bleeding brakes (mighty vac)

[Optimus Prime]

I had some troubles bleeding the Blank Panthers brakes today. I bought a mighty vac as I've heard it makes the job much easier. I started with the rear, and couldn't hold a vacuum when the bleeder was cracked open. After an hour of pissing with it, I figured out that the bleeder was leaking air around the threads so I put on teflon tape and it worked find.

Went to the front, put teflon tape on straight away, and never had a problem holding vacuum. After the change, I have no front brakes. The lever just pulls to the stop. I went through about 250 ml of fluid, with everything looking like it's working just find and still nothing.

any thoughts?

[geechie]

My guess would be that you unknowingly sucked air into the lines. If that's the case, a re-bleed of the fronts should set you straight.

Good luck.

George

[jamais]

Jason, forgive me but I have to ask the obvious question: Do you have ABS? IF you have ABS, then you use the bike's brake pumps for bleeding.

[Optimus Prime]

Jason, forgive me but I have to ask the obvious question: Do you have ABS? IF you have ABS, then you use the bike's brake pumps for bleeding.

No ABS. Just simple single disc brake front and rear.

[Dallara]

One important question, Jason...

And don't get mad, because it's a fair one.

Have you ever bled motorcycle brakes before without using a Mity-Vac?

Now, in the meantime... Here's a couple of things you can try.

1.) First of all, rubber band or tape a thin piece of wood, etc. to the throttle grip. Quarter to a half inch thick should be fine. Why? Because you can actually pull the lever TOO far back, which pushes the master cylinder piston too far and allows air into the system from the back of the piston. After you have done front brakes a bunch you learn to use your ring and little finger as the *spacer* to prevent this from happening, but when you're starting out the piece rubber-banded to the bar really helps. I still have the strip of wood I learned with in the top of my toolbox from over thirty years ago...

2.) Cinch the bleeder down on the caliper. Forget the Mity-Vac for a minute. Pump up some pressure by pumping the brake lever in and out vigorously for about a half dozen cycles. Now hold the lever against the *spacer* you have on the grip, grab a wrench and JUST *crack* the banjo bolt where the brake hose connects to the master cylinder. Remember, air rises in the system (and we'll come back to this in a moment...), and quite often it is trapped in various places where the system makes twists and turns. We want to work from the top to the bottom to try and eliminate any of this higher-up trapped air. Make sure you have a rag handy to wipe away any brake fluid that leaks out around the banjo fitting. Once you have just cracked the banjo bolt look to see if any air bubbles come out. If so you will have to repeat this procedure at this fitting until you get nothing but fluid. You have to be quick. Just crack it as you maintain pressure and then cinch it back down again... It all happens in about a second if you have it right, and it is all a smooth, controlled series of actions. Pump the lever. Get your wrench ready on the banjo bolt as you hold the brake lever just slightly in. As you pull the lever back toward the grip crack the banjo bolt and watch for bubbles, then as the lever nears the grip cinch the banjo bolt back down. Wipe away fluid. Repeat until there is no air.

3.) Go anywhere along the brake line and repeat this same procedure above at each banjo bolt fitting, including the one on the caliper. Also, just before you do this at each banjo bolt tap the brake hose with your wrench... Just lightly. You're trying to make the air get moving toward where you're bleeding so it can get out.

4.) Okay, once you are sure you have cleared any air near the fittings, make sure you have the master cylinder topped off. Now do your manual bleeding at the bleed fitting at the caliper. Again, forget the Mity-Vac for minute... We'll get back to it. See if you get any air. If you do it should be minimal. In fact, I recommend you bleed the brakes completely by hand... No matter how long it takes you or how much brake fluid you go through... Until you can do it blindfolded and get a solid, firm lever and stout brakes... Only then should you ever tackle a Mity-Vac. Why? Because like any other supposed *miracle tool* it is way, waaaaaaaaaay too easy to overdo it.

Mity-Vac's, IMHO, are most useful for changing out fluid, not for bleeding. It's way too easy to suck air in all sorts of places with the tool, but remember one very, very important thing... If you are letting in air at the bleeder fitting valve (i.e. around the threads as you describe) it is most likely staying in the vicinity of the bleeder. It is almost impossible to have it travel from there up the line... that is unless you suck in a LOTof air.

Now, if you want to try and use the Mity-Vac for bleeding, try this... Remember our little piece of wood? Well, make sure you have this rubber-banded or taped to the grip, make sure all the banjo fittings are tight, and most of all - make sure the master cylinder reservoir is FULL. Now, before you ever open a valve or pump the handle on your Mity-Vac... Pump up some pressure in the system by pumping the brake lever in and out several times, then hold it against the grip and rubber band it to the spacer and the grip... Now, lightly pump up some negative pressure in your Mity-Vac, and then crack the bleeder valve. Carefully watch your reservoir level as all too easily you can draw it down to empty. Still, if you just cracked the bleeder valve a tiny bit you can throttle this from there. If you get it right you can watch a steady stream of bake fluid go right through the line, and if you get really, really good with a Mity-Vac (and mind you, I am not nearly this good with one... and I have one of the trick alloy ones with all the bells and whistles... I still prefer to do my brakes the old fashioned way) you can change out the entire front brake system fluid of a single disc bike in no more than three of these cycles.

Now there is another way... If you have the right Mity-Vac. Some Mity-Vac models (and mine is like this) you can switch from pulling a vacuum to pumping pressure. With one of these you can fill a brake system from the BOTTOM chases all the air to the top all along the way. This works best refilling nearly rebuilt brake systems.

Another option you have is removing the entire brake master cylinder, hose, fittings, caliper, etc. and bleeding it one the bench... This way you can make sure the caliper and its bleeder valve is the highest point in the system, and so chase the air to there. Just make sure you have something the approx. width of the disc to put in the caliper between the pads. That's imperative.

Many times, when I ran across a really recalcitrant brake sytem on a customer's bike I often found it an actually time saver to pull the calipers and lines off the bike (leaving the master cylinder on the handlebar) and hanging the calipers up above the master cylinder with a piece of wood in between the pads... and then just bleed them that way.

Hell, at one time we had a vat of brake fluid, and actually assembled entire motocross bike brake systems fully submerged to make absolutely sure we had no air in the system! :104:

Hope some of this helps, and that you will try it out... After that, if you still have a question I'll see if I can help figure it out with ya'!

Cheers!

Allan (Dallara - NAABSCD)

[Optimus Prime]

One important question, Jason...

And don't get mad, because it's a fair one.

Have you ever bled motorcycle brakes before without using a Mity-Vac?

Now, in the meantime... Here's a couple of things you can try.
...

Thanks Allan. I actually bleed the ABS brakes on the 50R without a problem, which is why the problems on this simplier setup caught me by surprise. I was planning on doing a manual bleed tonight, but I hadn't heard of a number of the tricks you mentioned. I'll give them a try. Thanks.

PS. Do any of you guys wear gloves when working with Brake fluid? I haven't found a pair of gloves that don't melt yet still give me the feel I need. And with the clusterf'ck that was yesterday's brake job, my hands got pretty burned.

[geechie]

I'm really careful, and so far so good. Have you tried nitrile gloves? They're much more impervious to gas and at least some other solvents.

George

[Dallara]

Wow.

I can't ever recall having brake fluid "burn" me... When you say it burns you, Jason, how do you mean? Like gasoline will cook your crotch if your tank cap pops open and douses you with high test?

Or do your hands just get kind of chapped and irritated?

I've never used gloves bleeding brakes, but I can't recall ever getting much brake fluid on my hands. That said, my hands have been doused with contact cleaners, Safety-Kleen, acetone, paint thinners, gasoline, oils, denatured alcohol, carbon tetrachloride, etc., etc., etc. all through my life... I'm bound to be a candidate for all those cancers caused by contact with chemicals, but so far, so good! :037:

I don't laugh about using hand lotions now, though... In fact, I use 'em quite readily after long stints in the shop. I like the ones with aloe vera in 'em, so you might try one of those to see if it helps your hand "burn".

BTW, did ya' know that Vaseline Intensive Care Lotion is just about the best leather conditioner (and even leather cleaner) to ever come down the pike?

Cheers!

Allan (Dallara - NAABSCD)

[Optimus Prime]

Wow.

I can't ever recall having brake fluid "burn" me... When you say it burns you, Jason, how do you mean? Like gasoline will cook your crotch if your tank cap pops open and douses you with high test?

Or do your hands just get kind of chapped and irritated?

They get fairly red and irritated, with a bit of numbness. Of course, I did end up getting a lot of fluid on my hands for whatever reason.


ps - How're the brakes on the MZ, Jason?
I haven't had a chance to work on them yet. I've had some trouble to deal with at work and other things have come up. I'm hoping to work on them tonight.

Thanks for asking.

[Dallara]

Gasoline seems to be the only one that gets to me, and then only on really sensitive parts of my skin, as in the aforementioned crotch spills! :104:

Not that I don't have sympathy for ya'... My sister has real sensitive skin. So sensitive she can't use certain brands of soap, like Dial. Her skin can sometimes be pure agony for her.

One quick note about bleeding brakes... and it's hard to explain. You have to go slow, and be very, very methodical - yet you have to be very, very quick in all of your actual actions. For instance, if you are actually working some air *down* a line to the bleeder valve you have to do your repeated pumps quite quickly, as it is sort of a two steps forward, one step back kind of deal... The pressure you build up and then the relative motion of the fluid as you open the valve carries some sir bubbles *down* the line, but in the space of time it takes you to *recycle* the air has drifted back up the line a bit. I guess the best way to describe it is smooth, sure, and swift.

If for some reason you get interrupted, or have to take a break, one of the best places to start over is at those various banjo fittings, as the air tends to float up and cluster near those.

Good luck, and let me know how it all turns out for you.

Cheers!

Allan (Dallara - NAABSCD)

[Optimus Prime]

I tried for about 2 hours on the front, with no luck. I think I have just too much air in the lines for me to fix it with my limited work space at the moment. I must've mucked something up royal with the mighty vac. I can't get any pressure using the hand lever. I've got it scheduled to go to the shop on Wednesday, so we should be good to go after that.

The real pisser for me is that I never had a problem bleeding those damn Servo-ABS brakes on the BMW. Which is a task I would consider several times more difficult than the very simple single disc setup on the Black Panther. I was merely trying to replace the fluid with new, and now it needs to go to the shop. I feel like a daft bastard.

[Dallara]

Before you do that, Jason...

There is one thing you might try, but you have to have a decent amount of brake fluid to do it.

Remove the front brake line at the caliper. Pour some FRESH brake fluid in a CLEAN stable, open container - like a deep bowl. Place the end of the brake line from the caliper into the fluid where it is fully submerged. Now, get your bottle of brake fluid and pop the cap on the master cylinder. Fill the master cylinder to the full line, rubber band your piece of wood on the bar, and start pumping the lever in full, reasonably slow strokes. See if you start getting any air bubbles coming out the end of the line at the other end *OR* popping out up at the master cylinder (yes, it sometimes happens, believe it or not, from the overlap before the one-way spring valve shuts). You will never feel pressure on the lever like you would if it were connected to the caliper, but you will move fluid. Add fluid to the master cylinder as necessary, and if you are using fresh fluid you can recycle it out of the bowl you have the end of the line in.

There are some other tricks, but it sounds like you are a bit flustered and frustrated with the whole thing so I won't go on unless you ask.

Bleeding brakes is really a simple thing, but it is one of those simple things that can drive ya' NUTS if it doesn't go right.

BTW, I bled the front brakes on the R-1150-R yesterday. Took a bit of time, but I managed to chase out a couple of little air bubbles that had snuck in there from when Rob dropped it in the Hill Country. That's one thing to note, folks... If you drop your bike, even in an ultra low-speed mishap, it is very, very common to get some air in the line if the master cylinder gets totally, or even partially, inverted.

Let me know if I can help...

Cheers!

Allan (Dallara - NAABSCD)

[Optimus Prime]

Before you do that, Jason...

There is one thing you might try, but you have to have a decent amount of brake fluid to do it.

Remove the front brake line at the caliper. Pour some FRESH brake fluid in a CLEAN stable, open container - like a deep bowl. Place the end of the brake line from the caliper into the fluid where it is fully submerged. Now, get your bottle of brake fluid and pop the cap on the master cylinder. Fill the master cylinder to the full line, rubber band your piece of wood on the bar, and start pumping the lever in full, reasonably slow strokes. See if you start getting any air bubbles coming out the end of the line at the other end *OR* popping out up at the master cylinder (yes, it sometimes happens, believe it or not, from the overlap before the one-way spring valve shuts). You will never feel pressure on the lever like you would if it were connected to the caliper, but you will move fluid. Add fluid to the master cylinder as necessary, and if you are using fresh fluid you can recycle it out of the bowl you have the end of the line in.

Cheers!

Allan (Dallara - NAABSCD)
Damn, that's a good idea. Hmm, I'll have to try that tonight. Thanks Allan.

[Optimus Prime]

Well, I took the Panther to a friend who works on bikes (and owns a R1100S with ABS) and had him look at it. He rode it around and said he thought the brakes were just fine. He believes I've been riding the servo-ABS brakes on the oilhead for too long and I've "forgotten" what conventional brakes feel like.

I still feel like there is too much "play" in the lever before real braking starts, but I can get the back end up without a problem. I just don't like the fact that I can squeeze the lever all the way back. My gut tells me that I should reach full pressure before that. Maybe it's just me and I need to adapt to a new bike.

[DarthRider]

Jason -
Your friend may be right about you just being used to the more sensitive brakes on the R1150R ABS. But...the Black Panther had only what I would consider normal play or "take up" before the *very* firm, hard resistance was felt in the lever, followed by virtually no sponge, just STOP.
I can't really know what you are feeling or getting in brake feel or how far back the lever is coming, but the lever never came even close to the grip, even squeezing it harder at rest than you ever would in motion.
I wish I could give you a more accurate description of what *that* bike's lever take up was, but I can't really be more specific...that's a problem with having and riding several bikes I guess.
My recollection is that the take up was approximately the same as my R1150R non-ABS, and I know for sure the lever feel was equally hard.
If you are just getting more take up than you feel is normal but the lever has a good hard feel to it, I'd say your buddy is probably right. If you are feeling sponge, I believe he is mistaken and there is still air in the line.
I can't add a thing to what Allan has told you about curing that problem.
Let us know what happens or what you decide.

[Optimus Prime]

Jason -
Your friend may be right about you just being used to the more sensitive brakes on the R1150R ABS. But...the Black Panther had only what I would consider normal play or "take up" before the *very* firm, hard resistance was felt in the lever, followed by virtually no sponge, just STOP.
I can't really know what you are feeling or getting in brake feel or how far back the lever is coming, but the lever never came even close to the grip, even squeezing it harder at rest than you ever would in motion.
I wish I could give you a more accurate description of what *that* bike's lever take up was, but I can't really be more specific...that's a problem with having and riding several bikes I guess.
My recollection is that the take up was approximately the same as my R1150R non-ABS, and I know for sure the lever feel was equally hard.
If you are just getting more take up than you feel is normal but the lever has a good hard feel to it, I'd say your buddy is probably right. If you are feeling sponge, I believe he is mistaken and there is still air in the line.
I can't add a thing to what Allan has told you about curing that problem.
Let us know what happens or what you decide.


See, I did ride it a bit before I swapped the brake fluid and I did think the brakes were harder before hand. At stand still, I can get the lever all the way back which makes me think something isn't right.

SHowever, since I can ride it and it stops plenty well for me at the moment I'll try not to obsess over it. But I think I may take it to some pro shops for second and third opinions. I'm not very familiar with the local bike shops, so I'm not connected enough to know who's the real deal and who're a bunch of wankers. I'll ask my sport bike buddies when I see them a week from Sunday.

[DarthRider]

Sounds like a plan.
Just remember, "You can never have too much horsepower or too much brakes"!

[Optimus Prime]

Sounds like a plan.
Just remember, "You can never have too much horsepower or too much brakes"!

I promise to get her back in shape. I know the brakes were better sorted when you shipped her than now, I feel a bit daft for it. On the other hand, these are actually the type of expierences I think I need. The whole, "can't make a good omlet until you break a few eggs" saying.

My buddy says there's a KTM dealership one town to the east that has a hell of a wrench working there. We'll see what he has to say next week, if I can get the time.

[DarthRider]

That KTM dealer might be a good place to meet some Duke riders too.
I'l warn you right now...they won't believe it and won't like it when you hang right with them!

[Dallara]

Jason,

It's rare these days to find a hydraulic front disc brake lever that you can actually bottom on the grip when it is free of air in the system. Most will allow about a half-inch or so of lever take-up before getting firm. I will admit that BMW servo-assisted ABS lever feel is hard as a rock. I think that's where the term "wooden" to describe the lever feel comes from. I absolutely hate that when I ride a Beemer so equipped.

But back to your MZ...

I know hydraulic brake systems look to be quite simple, and they are, but like some other things that look simple they can have nuances and pitfalls that are not readily apparent. Sometimes you just have to look closer...

So let me suggest this - Take a good, long, careful look at the brake system on the bike. I know you're a really smart guy, so just try and look at the system with an eye on exactly *where* air bubbles might be trapped. Turn the bars back and forth as you look and see if there might be a position that would make it easier to get these bubbles out, say at a banjo bolt, if the bars were turned one way or another. Try to pressure up the line as much as you can and see if the line gets a weird bend in it or the like when it has pressure on it. Go slow, be methodical in this examination. Look for bad sealing washers or places the line doesn't sit naturally because maybe a banjo bolt has it twisted, etc.

Brakes are funny... I have had brakes on the lift or bench that had tons of air in them, and easily bled it out in less than ten minutes. Conversely, I have brakes that were *almost there* that I had to work literally hours on to get those last three air bubbles out. There really is no rhyme or reason to it. You might walk out there right now and get it bled in ten minutes, and really not do anything different than you have been doing. It's sort of one of those "Zen and the Art of Motorcycle Maintenance" things... :037:

Just don't get discouraged. If a human built it, and he got the air out of it, so can you!

If you do take it to a shop, and the mechanic will let you, watch how he does it. Some mechs don't like to have people looking over their shoulder, but if you explain to him what you've been through he should let you have a peek. Sometimes when you see someone else do it a light bulb goes off and suddenly it all makes perfect sense. It's funny, too... Good mechs all have their own tips and tricks, like mine with the piece of wood. Not all mechs use a little crutch like that, but when something is giving me trouble I go back to the basics that got my skill levels there over the years. As I said before, I simply use my ring and pinkie finger now for the *spacer*, but if I get in trouble the piece of wood and the rubber bands come out!!! :037:

Another example is I simply will not work on a bike (if I can avoid it) without the shop manual sitting on the bench open to the section for the work I am about to perform... Even if I have done the procedure a thousand times. Sure, if you are out on the road this is impossible, but if I can I have the manual there.

And the good mech you find may have other tricks that work even better than the ones I have pointed out, and those may be the ones that work for you.

Anyway, point I wanted to make is not to get down about it. If it's mechanical then you can fix it. No doubt in my mind about that.

Have Fun and Good Luck!

Cheers!

Allan (Dallara - NAABSCD)

[Optimus Prime]

Jason,

It's rare these days to find a hydraulic front disc brake lever that you can actually bottom on the grip when it is free of air in the system. Most will allow about a half-inch or so of lever take-up before getting firm. I will admit that BMW servo-assisted ABS lever feel is hard as a rock. I think that's where the term "wooden" to describe the lever feel comes from. I absolutely hate that when I ride a Beemer so equipped.

But back to your MZ...

I know hydraulic brake systems look to be quite simple, and they are, but like some other things that look simple they can have nuances and pitfalls that are not readily apparent. Sometimes you just have to look closer...
Have Fun and Good Luck!

Cheers!

Allan (Dallara - NAABSCD)

Thanks Allan. I think if my work area situation were a little better, I'd prolly keep at it until I fixed it. As it is, I only have a very small single garage tucked under the house. It was built around the turn of the century and is quite cramped. In addition I have a lot of crap thrown in there that I haven't found a place for yet (where in the world am I going to keep my lathe and foosball table?). There's no electric (I run an extension cord in from the basement) No bench, and only about enough room to park the bike. In addition, a number of my tools are spread throughout the house with all the major remodeling I've been doing since moving in 9 months ago. Which means I've been trying to bleed the brakes on my knees in the driveway, and having to run inside to find this tool, or get that bit of kit, etc. I think I'm more frustrated with the lack of workshop, time, tools, etc. than I am with the actual bike.

At this point, I think I'd rather have a pro do it and get it done than take even more time away from the Master Bath (Mz. Melinda has been very patient, but the Jacuzzi and Custom Shower aren't going to plumb and tile themselves)

However, I did think of a question for you. At one point, I thought it would be a good idea to put Teflon tape around the bleeder valve. So I removed it, taped it up and reinserted it. I couldn't figure out a way to do this without basically leaving the system open to getting air in via the bleeder hole. Is there a way to do this that will limit the fluid being purged from the system? I thought perhaps removing the caliper and holding it so that the bleeder hole is the highest part of the system. At the time, however, I didn't think much of it since I had, "A Mighty Vac that'll just suck all the air out in no time". :104:

[Dallara]

Sure, Jason...

First off, no air is going to get into the system if when you remove the bleeder valve you don't upset the system - i.e. don't pump it or move anything.

Now, if you want to make absolutely sure that you don't have any air in the system from removing the valve you do one simple trick... It's messy, but you'll know there is no air.

Again, try to have your little piece of wood spacer already on the bar at the grip. Hold the bleeder in your right hand with your teflon tape installed (and don't use too much of this - one full wrap with a slight overlap is plenty sufficient). As you are about to thread it back into the caliper simply apply a slow, steady pressure with the front brake lever, where you see a bit of brake fluid running out of the bleeder valve hole. Thread the bleeder valve in until it bottoms as you keep this pressure up. If you have positive pressure at the bleeder valve orifice as you thread it in then no air can enter the system.

BTW, here's a neat little part that can come in handy:

http://www.speedbleeder.com/

I have them on my Honda VFR-750-F and they work like a champ. I don't have 'em on anything else but your saga reminded me of them and I think I am going to get some for the BMW, Yamaha, and the Norton.

Another helpful little piece are banjo bolts fitted with bleeder valves. Again, I have them on my VFR. They make getting air from near banjo fittings a snap. They are made by Goodridge. Take a look here:

http://discountcyclestuff.com/GOODRIDGE-10MM-W-BLDER-CHROME-BANJO-BOLT-pr-36064.html

or here:

http://www.lockhartphillipsusa.com/rs/getProduct.cgi?currRSBrands=358

(scroll down and look for Goodridge single and double banjo bolts)

Hope this helps!

Allan (Dallara - NAABSCD)

[DarthRider]

"...Hold the bleeder in your right hand with your teflon tape installed (and don't use too much of this - one full wrap with a slight overlap is plenty sufficient)..."

And be sure and wrap the tape the "right" way (clockwise on the fitting) so the end of it tends to stretch a bit and not wad up when the fitting is screwed in.

[Dallara]

Good point, Darth...

Glad you mentioned it. I always do it that way but I forgot to mention it. Like I mentioned before, it is important to go back to the basics, but that's one of those I completely forgot to mention.

BTW, doesn't Tucker-Rocky distribute the Speed Bleeders and Goodridge banjo bolts with bleed valves? I would swear I got mine for the Honda through T-R and our T-R rep Tommy Williams back when I was a dealer.

Maybe you could point Jason at a dealer near him that sells them or could order them from you guys...

Cheers!

Allan (Dallara - NAABSCD)

[DarthRider]

Yeah, we carry both Goodridge & Speed Bleeders...great stuff.
Jason, we are wholesale only to authorized dealers so the best I can do is send you to our Dealer Locator:
http://www.powersportrider.com/CGI-BIN/HOME
Other (lesser:020:) distributors carry them too so any bike dealer will have them or can order them for you.
They would be a convenient upgrade to your Kitty!

[Dallara]

Cool...

Thanks, Darth.

I thought you guys handled them.

Try 'em, Jason. Even if it doesn't solve your problem this time it will make it easier in the future.

Cheers!

Allan (Dallara - NAABSCD)

[Optimus Prime]

I think perhaps, that I'm a bit of a dodo.

I took the Kitty to work today, and paid close attention to the front brake. I think maybe, it's just fine. For whatever reason, I had it in my mind that the brake lever parallel to the bar equaled full stroke. Because that's where the lever would stop at full squeeze.

However, If I put a full on, two handed, squeeze-her-guts-out effort. The lever will come back more. After messing with this, it seems that it is impossible for me to get the lever actually back to the grip. At my very best, I can get it within 1/2 inch. I feel like I'm applying maximum real world effort with the lever still 1-2 inches from the grip.

Maybe there is still some air in there, but it appears that it wasn't nearly as bad as I thought. I just needed to get used to it.

Although now I've got electrical gremlins to work on.

(tell you the truth, I kinda like working on these things)

[Dallara]

This reminds me of two stories I love...

One, it took Thomas Edison trying over 2,000 different materials before he stumbled upon the carbonized cotton filament that made the first light bulbs work. When asked how he felt about having 2,000 failures before he had success he answered "I did not fail once. I simply found 2,000 ways how not to make a light bulb."

But my favorite is attributed to Vince Lombardi, IIRC, who said "I never lost a football game... I ran out of time in a few, though."

You're not a dodo, Jason. Not by a long shot. You're just filling up your experience bag! :eusa_clap:

Cheers!

Allan (Dallara - NAABSCD)

[DarthRider]

On a Speed Triple forum they were discussing how much excess pull-back some Speedies have, yet still have retina-detaching brakes.
One guy was just raising bloody hell because he could squeeze the lever almost all the way to the bar if he really put the squahzoo to it, and how terrible & dangerous it is.
Finally, someone asked him how many times he he had squeezed the lever that hard while the bike was moving!

You may still have a bubble but you may not, sounds like. The performance of the brake is the main thing but "feel" is also very important, so don't stop until you're happy & satisfied that it's as good as it can be.

My Speedy's front brake will howl the tire, smoke the tire, lift the rear wkeel off the ground, give you a nose-bleed and STOP RIGHT NOW. But I have one of the ones with a bit too much pull-back, so I'm chasing it via a Triumph fix and a couple of aftermarket approaches too.

Your front bake just can't be "too good".

[Optimus Prime]

The story fills out.

So I'm talking to my buddy about the brakes last night, the one who looked at the bike and said he thought the brakes were fine. Well it turns out he might have "fixed" the problem and didn't think to mention it. After fleshing some things out with him, here's what I think happened.

I swapped out grips for slightly longer ones. In doing so, I moved the switchgear maybe 1/4-1/2 inch inboard. This caused the brake adjuster screw on the lever to just barely contact and bind on the switchgear mid-stroke. Thus, keeping the lever from going back any further. When I took it to him, he noticed this and gave it a little tweak to clear. It just so happens that the lever stops in nearly the same postion due to full brake pressure so I didn't notice the difference right away. It wasn't until I could, with lots of force, pull the lever back all the way that I noticed the difference. I would also assume that not being able to get a full stroke made it a wee bit harder to bleed the brakes.

So now I'm pretty sure I know what the problem was, and that everything is A-ok.

:020: