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DarthRider
05-22-2006, 11:57 PM
This was penned by our (I think) inactive Cafe member George Tuttle (Pistol) for our Brit & Euro bike club's website. I'm sure he would not mind me posting it here. It is not presented as "rules", just some things to consider & maybe debate.
Some of it I don't agree with and you may not either, that's OK.
Most of us old dogs have many bad strories about group rides and an instinctive distrust of large riding groups, especially strangers.
Maybe this will help get us all on the same page!

Dave



Although I have met and know most of you by now, you may not know that much about my own background. I retired from the Air Force fourteen years ago where I flew supersonic jets for twenty years. The last fifteen of which were spent flying tactical fighters, F-4 Phantoms and F-16 Fighting Falcons. During those twenty years, formation flying was a way of life. Many of the formations we flew dated back to WWI and earlier. Each particular formation was designed for very specific technical and tactical reasons using a healthy dose of common sense, all of which still apply today.

The same can be said for motorcycle formations and spacing during group rides. The aviation rationale, disciplines and some formations directly apply to motorcycle group rides. Your position within the group should be logical and based on common sense.

The following are a few common sense guidelines I use when riding in a group. Some are extremely basic but may be useful for the first time group rider or even for some of the more experienced riders who have simply not had an opportunity to give it much thought until now. Most of the following discussion is intended for group rides of around ten bikes or less. Larger groups may necessitate some modification and/or additions. Whenever possible it is best to match the skills, machines and riding/speed preferences of the group even if it requires splitting the main group into two or more sub-groups. The use of "he/him" is generic and applies to both sexes.

1) Your first priority must be safety. The fact that you are now riding in a formation should not increase your risk or that of others. For that reason everyone must ride their own ride in a manner that keeps them in their comfort zone. Never exceed your capability or comfort zone just to keep up. If the pace is too quick for you - back off until you feel comfortable. The group will eventually slow to your pace. There is no need to rush to avoid becoming lost or separated from the group

2) Discipline is essential. When riding in a group, you automatically forfeit some personal autonomy. You should normally maintain your relative position within the group unless doing so would compromise safety. Randomly changing positions is an indication of an undisciplined rider, increases risk for everyone else and should not be condoned. There may be times when changing your position in the formation is the safe thing to do. But before you do, you should have a good reason and it shouldn't be frequent.

3) Trust your leader. This is a two-way deal. You should trust your leader and he must be competent to lead. A good leader will always take into account the equipment, experience and skill level of each rider. He needs to tailor his riding accordingly. A common practice I would like to see more of is a concise briefing by the leader just before the ride. Depending on the nature of the ride and the familiarity of those within the group, this briefing may only take a minute or two. As a minimum, the leader should outline the route and establish the overall tone for the ride. Questions should be addressed before the helmets go on.

4) Pay attention and don't assume. This is so basic and elementary that it should not need to be addressed. However, far too many accidents have occurred during group rides where someone just stopped paying attention for a split second and ran into the person in front of them. Be aware of your spacing behind the rider in front in terms of time. Know your own reaction time and stopping capability and don't ride any closer in point of time. Never assume the rider in front will continue at his current pace and never look away for any longer than an instant.

When accelerating from a stop, especially in conjunction with a turn, don't assume the rider in front will continue to accelerate just because his brake light went out and he started to roll. He could subsequently see something that causes him to stop while you are looking over your shoulder for traffic and run into him. Unfortunately, this scenario has also played out all too often.

5) Each rider is directly responsible for the rider behind them. This enhances mutual support. If the rider behind you starts to fall back, so should you. If you lose sight of the person behind you, slow down for a while. If that doesn't work after a period of time - turn around. Something has obviously happened and he probably could use your help. As you can see, if the last person in the formation had his engine quit (ran out of gas) or crashed eventually the entire group would be at his aid. For larger groups the leader should identify smaller units that would stay together for such situations. If it is necessary to stop or if you decide to take a different route, it is essential that someone in the group knows where you are.

A good technique that makes it easy for the guy in front of you to see you is to position yourself so you can see his eyes in his mirror. If you can't see his eyes, he can't see you without moving his head. This is even more applicable if he only has one mirror.

6) Type of formation (staggered, trail, line abreast) and spacing. This depends on your environment (weather, road type and condition, speed, congestion, etc.), and your mission. One extreme would be in heavy stop and go rush-hour traffic at very slow speeds. A close staggered formation with no less than nose/tail clearance (unless stopped) might be the smartest formation. In city traffic a closely spaced formation will discourage cars from "cutting" in. Leave them room and they may be tempted to cut-in. Better to tighten up the spacing a bit so cars perceive the group as a homogeneous unit.

The other extreme would be a "spirited" ride out in the hill country on a twisty open road with no traffic. Here the smart formation might be an extended trail just keeping the guy in front and in back of you in sight.

For me line abreast is strictly a "show" formation suitable for funerals, processions and such and has no place in an informal group ride. It diminishes your margin of error and increases risk of a collision. However, when pulling up to a stop, stopping two abreast is probably a good idea.

Unless briefed otherwise, during the course of a typical informal group ride your position (formation and spacing) should be fluid and dictated by the overall situation. You might find yourself going from a close staggered to an extended trail formation and back again all in a relative short amount of time.

At times you may want to have increased spacing to avoid road hazards like rock chips while at the same time desire to keep the formation relatively tight. Two bikes riding close staggered in trail with other groups of two works well in this case.

Sometimes when on a two-lane road riding staggered and you find yourself on the left track it is a good idea to move over to the right momentarily when on-coming traffic passes. This is especially true for larger vehicles like 18-wheelers. This is to have a little more distance and time in case something falls off; he veers towards you, or throws a "grit blast" in his wake.

7) Establishing the spacing. Because there are so many variables that could dictate the optimum spacing, number two in the formation should normally set the spacing for the group. Nobody else is in a position to logically set or change the spacing in a fluid environment. As such, the number two rider should be experienced and have a solid understanding of group ride dynamics. In city traffic you may need to frequently make minor deviations to the group spacing to avoid running in the blind-spots of other vehicles.

Although you may be number five and can't see number two, you would only need to maintain the spacing that number four has on three. In other words, set your own spacing based on the spacing taken by the guy in front of you. Don't exceed your comfort level in order to maintain spacing.

8) Speed and lanes. It depends. The leader initially sets the pace but eventually the slowest rider should normally determine it. If everyone follows the guidelines above then speed will take care of itself. A modification to this might be on country rides where there is a pre-ride agreement that the faster riders will be in the front of the group and the slower riders in the rear, and that the faster group will wait at all turn-decision points until the second group catches up. A common misconception is that going slower is always safer. Not true. On our superslabs, going slower can get you killed.

With few exceptions, the leader must tailor aggressiveness and average speed to the lowest level of capability in the group. Capability is defined and limited by skill, experience, machine or a combination of all three. Speed preferences should be discussed and agreed upon before the ride begins.

On multilane roads the group should strive to be in the same lane as the leader. However, don't compromise safety to get there. If a car cuts into the formation, analyze the best course of action to get back in formation. You might just want to ride it out behind the car for a while if other options aren't obvious.

Normally on our superslabs the leader should be in what he considers to be the safest lane for conditions. Many times with modern bikes and competent riders this is the furthest left lane going just slightly faster than the general traffic flow. This limits, but doesn't negate your vulnerability from the rear by the hyper-speeders. Generally the right lane has the most hazards in the form of exiting and entering cars at sometimes drastically different speeds. A middle lane also has its hazards. In a middle lane, you are subject to “crazies” on both sides of you and it is difficult to “isolate" the threat.

In conclusion, these are just a few of my thoughts on riding in a group. I'm sure there are other ideas, techniques or guidelines that I missed. I hope that this will stimulate a discussion on the subject and would like to solicit your thoughts and comments for future publication. The more we learn and talk about group riding the better off (and safer) we will be while riding in a group. Thanks for your time. Ride safe!

jamming
05-23-2006, 07:32 AM
Dave, great tips.
I am in total agreement with rule #1..Safety is the #1 priorty.
I'm not really a group rider. I've done 3 flags a couple of times. We always did it in groups of 3. 3 is perfect, If someone breaks down or goes down, 1 goes and one stays, does'nt slow you down at gas stops.

Roger

DarthRider
05-23-2006, 09:44 AM
I'm with you Roger, I don't do "group rides" either but sometimes it works out that way and things like this help. And other guys love big groups.
2-3 close buds that I have a lot of seat time with is my ideal "group". A good wingman is gold!

Wild Will
05-23-2006, 01:11 PM
But my favorite tip is to stay to the rear, and when all have ridden off, I go in the opposite direction. My favorite group ride is 3-4 well worn saddlemen, all mouth breathing to the rhythm of the twisties, whites of their eyes shining through face shields slightly open to let out the screams.

kocook
05-24-2006, 10:54 PM
My favorite group ride is 3-4 well worn saddlemen, all mouth breathing to the rhythm of the twisties, whites of their eyes shining through face shields slightly open to let out the screams.:003:

Acacia
05-26-2006, 08:11 AM
Good points made.

We have all probably ridden with groups who are considerate and others that are not.

The recent TX Hill Country ride had several 'observations'. A group of riders took off without considering if others wanted to ride with them. I, with this group, was left filling my gas tank at one stop as I was the last in line when the rest of the group took off. By the time I had it filled, the group were out of sight and could have gone in several directions.

DarthRider
05-26-2006, 12:32 PM
Brian -
Point taken but the thing is, the larger the group is the more difficult it is to be "considerate". Especially if someone wants to ride with the group and either hasn't been proactive or doesn't make it his business to *not* be left behind.
Some guys in said group may be in a big hurry to get moving...they may have already been at the "gas stop" too long for various reasons.
Logistics, schedules & timing come into play. None of us want to be hurried or on a schedule while we're riding but sometimes we are and it's worth it, like when we all met for lunch at the Lone Star Motorcycle Museum for lunch. That after at least 4-5 small/med size groups had split off from the large group who was having a series of accordionitis attacks with accompanying hurry-up-and-wait syndrome.
Each of those groups were going different places at different top, corner & average speeds and different numbers of gas stops and/or & pee breaks.
And they all needed to be at the museum rendezvous at ~noon, and as a result had to stay on their respective "schedules & time tables".
Again, very difficult for groups to be "considerate".

Brian, I don't know if any of that applies to you, I was just using that actual situation to illustrate how easily that can happen.

Here's what I did to avoid getting left with my, um..."gas nozzle" in my hand.
I was right behind Allan yelling "Thank You Conti and Jesus!" for the sticky new tires on Hoochie Mama! I needed them, believe me, to keep up with the wild-eyed, balls-out Allan on a hot new bike and fresh rubber. But soon we were spending nearly as much time stopped & waiting as riding. Allan was pretty much locked into his hostly duties but others of us weren't.

I think Dean-O & I were the first to bail and apparently other groups followed suit. I also had the feeling that if I stayed with Allan we would end up doing some things we had promised ourselves and each other, not to do.

We saw, gassed & gabbed with some of the other groups during the rest of the morning's Old Hoon's Geezer-Gonzo Ride through the best bike roads in Texas. Kept a quick, fast pace with a minimum of stops and temporarily hooked up with two of the smaller, faster groups.

My favorite type of riding is behind guys a little faster than me, or at least running at the speed I also like, which averages like "90%" under those delightful circumstances. With guys I trust and I feel trust me. A lot of the learning happens then. Sometimes a little teaching too but I think it's good to be about 80/20 on the learning/teaching curve. At least 60/40.

A bonus is that it feels a lot like racing which I don't get to do anymore. No passing and no winners or losers for sure. Like a good, clean, fast race without the testosterone and high risk of broken collarbones & bike parts. But with the adrenaline...well most of it anyway!

Tell you what Brian, I'd be proud to ride with you, let's make sure we hook up in the Big Bend. I won't leave you if you won't leave me!

Acacia
05-26-2006, 02:34 PM
I am simply giving illustrations of how easily it can happen and the responsibility all in the group do carry - in my opinion.

There were several persons the Saturday am that would have liked to ride with the 'fast group' but did not get the chance to simply because that group initally took off and did not look back or wait for others caught at lights etc.

As far as the gas filling incident - it was late in the day, a small filling station, our group of 7 and a 'herd' of cruisers using two pumps. There was no issue with me not being able to keep up on the road - there were several bikes behind me most of the time.

Quote "Some guys in said group may be in a big hurry to get moving...they may have already been at the "gas stop" too long for various reasons."

Your comment goes to the heart of what group consideration and riding really is all about. Voluntary bailing out or including in is just that, but if you are riding with a group there needs to be some consideration and communication - all ways.

There was one point where a Yamaha rider (Dont recall his name) in front of me went 'farming' - I was close to him and had to avoid following him, but could see he was going to be OK, and line up for the next corner all of which were limited in line of sight. I knew those behind me were in a position to render aid of need be. Once out of the hills and at the next stop I did go up to him to find out if all was OK and to assure him I was concerned about him. Had I not seen him and the others behind me soon after the incident, and the road allowed, I would have turned back to help.

I have unfortunately had 2 incidents in the recent past where buddies have gone down. I have done for them then that which I would appreciate others doing for me if I was in that unfortunate position.

Is it the Marines code that never leaves a buddy behind? A sensible code about consideration.

DarthRider
05-26-2006, 03:07 PM
Brian, I guess we will have to agree to disagree.
A rider running off the road and/or going down is a very different thing than what I discussed earlier.
The best time to "group up" is before the ride begins...we did not do that and can all share the responsibility. Look at the chaos that ensued and led to your earlier post.
If a "group" does not even know who all is, or wants to be, in the "group", how can anyone be faulted when someone is left behind...other than that person himself? In the end we all have to be responsible for ourselves.
This is all a good illustration of why I, and *many* others, just don't do large group rides. The riding part that is, not the social part.
No apologies here, unless I am ever responsible for someone being left at a bar, restaurant, police station, crash site or hospital...

Acacia
05-26-2006, 05:04 PM
Dave,
I certainly approach groups rides, and fellow road users, with a different point of reference.

If the ride begins (how if forms is not a concern here) and moves off, I, as a part of the group, accept consideration for the well being of all who ride until I feel/understand clearly otherwise about their intentions.

To barrel through lights and not wait up for those caught, leave a rider at a rest stop, gas pumps etc, as illustrations, is not 'consideration' for others or polite. If that is our point of agreeing to dis-agree, I have no issue with that. Some do, some dont.

Those who ride with me will know that while I am having my fun, I want others to enjoy theirs too. If my riding with them enhances their ride experience, then I am happy to have been able to contribute a little - and still have my fun!

You rightly point out, it is not for the 'competition'. There is plenty of road for all of us.

DarthRider
05-26-2006, 05:12 PM
"...A group of riders took off without considering if others wanted to ride with them..."

"...To barrel through lights and not wait up for those caught, leave a rider at a rest stop, gas pumps etc, as illustrations, is not 'consideration' for others or polite..."

You seem to have changed the subject somewhat, or are really talking about two things at once.
Your first quotation above is what I was responding to.
You second quotation above is not.

bbneuser
05-29-2006, 09:20 AM
brian/darth/others on hill country ride-
couple of things.
one-i sure appreciated being invited on this ride. found lots in common with other riders, this is the type/style of riding i'd like to get most familiar with, as i frequent the hill country, enjoy the roads, want to improve my riding skills and have been away from motorized two wheelers for about 30 years. couple of bikes back in the 70's in college, last ten years on road/mtn bicycles, really could not wait to get back to riding, especially having covered a lot of these same roads on bicyles and knowing their potential with a motorcycle.

two-live in area with few other riders, with exception of john b/mitch b, but unfortunately don't hook up too often for schedule or other reasons. for that reason, ride by myself for the most part, so this was actually my first real large group ride of any sort. had done an 'fz' weekend with some of the fz1oa board members in this same area, but was much smaller group, very similar styles and stayed together pretty well. in that group, i chose to ride sweep, to take advantage of the learning opportunity presented. our rider group for the hill country gig was much more diverse, many different bikes, riders, styles, etc. hence, a few more opportunities for organizational miscues/errors. and they happened and i think i was a source for the first.

three-not knowing much about me, my riding or any lead experience, allan 'designated' me to lead a first ride out on foggy/wet/drizzly ride. while waiting to everyone to cue up, was given the high sign by someone to go ahead and lead out, which i did. seems some portion of balance of riders were not ready, which i was not aware of, but off we went, nevertheless. and from there the group fragmented. allan was sure to point out later that this wouldn't be much of a group ride without a group and best to wait for all to show ready before departing, in the future. advice accepted and absorbed.

was clear from beginning, there was a lot of collected experience assembled here and lots to be learned, so eventually wittled my way back to my favored, at this point in my riding career, 'sweep' spot where i could observe more riding styles and take advantage of the opportunity to learn, once again. unfortunately, i'm the 'farmer' who lost a moment's concentration in a series of blind, decreasing radius turns and went 'baja' for a minute, without any consequence. of course i felt like a rookie, was very concerned that i could have taken someone with me and regathered my shite and attempted to regroup with the half dozen or so who i was with, who did manage to keep it together on 336. but i took something away from this experience and learned from it. and brian, again my apologies for my error, for you were subject to my agricultural riding style. i am taking notes, believe me.

darth, i sure agree smaller groups have to be easier to manage, and with a group diversity such as this ride, all the more difficult, because there truly were those who road at different pace levels. seems part of one's responsibility to the group is to try your best to be at a stage of readiness that would allow one to respond quickly to movement of the larger mass, but circumstances sometimes may not permit, as with the very large group of 'other' riders in the area that weekend. that might surely lead to some group splitting, as you can't always get 30 bikes through a light at one time. hard to say, in advance, how the dynamic would always work out, as it changes with the participating riders, in the pack, at the time.

all that said, and all that learning both behind and yet in front of me, i can't wait to get back out and do it again. ya gotta love the riding in the hill country, it's a pretty well kept secret, outside of texas. i hope to ride with you all again, hope to exhibit a little more discipline and hope big bend's on my calendar later this year. thanks again, guys.

Bones
05-30-2006, 10:09 PM
This is a very interesting discourse on a very important subject, I think.

Having read all written above and considered each point of view, I think I better understand my own position on why I avoid virtually all larger group rides. Too many opportunities for unfulfilled expectations, I guess. And statistically, certainly an increase in the possibility for something bad to happen.

For me, riding with others, ESPECIALLY if there is to be spirited riding going on, requires a fair amount of trust and cohesion with the other rider(s). Add more riders and it all gets diluted. I have been on too many rides where what happened as described in the hill country ride occurred. The group fragmented and someone on the tail got seperated. Having once had that happen to me, I found myself in an area I was not familiar with, not able to figure out where I was, low on fuel and supremely pissed that at least one person did not have the patience to wait. I decided then and there that if I ever ride with a larger group again, I will have a riding "buddy" and be a riding "buddy" with at least one other rider so that nobody is left lost or stranded. Kind of like scuba diving or swimming.

So, my favorite riding is to go with one or two other riders, maybe three if we decide to stay togehter and pay attention to each other. When that takes place, I change my expectations about how spirited the riding might be and "decide" not to get frustrated if it is slower than I like, or not to let someone else force me to ride beyond what I am comfortable with, esp. on blind twisty roads or where there can be gravel.

I think if I was on a Hill Country type ride (which sounds fantastic because of the guys there), I would just change my expectations about what would transpire.

That said......I plan to fly to TX in October, rent a bike and ride either Big Bend or the Hill Country, starting in Austin, meeting two other guys I have ridden with before.

Jeff

arkline
05-30-2006, 11:36 PM
Interesting topic. Get your hands on the latest issue of Cycle World to read Peter Egan's take on riding with others. It's the July 2006 issue.

I've been on two whole "BIG" rides in my career. Both were charity rides for good causes. One was dominated by Wingers and other was overwhelmingly Milwaukee iron. The Wingers had a police escort and cruised through the autumn countryside in serene bliss til we reached our destination at Crystal Mountain Lodge. When the event broke up, they all left in ones and twos and were hauling axe down the mountain like there was no tomorrow. The other ride was a couple a four hundred V Twins. The cops escorting gave up keeping order about a mile outside the Seattle city limits. Those guys and gals were hauling up to seventy and eighty in tight groups of twenty-five or so. The whole thing was like peristalsis through a snake. Hauling to keep up and hauling it down to keep from taking out the tail end of the line. Over and over. Not enjoyable for either me or my daughter sitting pillion. Won't go again, no matter how deserving the charity. The Wingers were pretty stand-offish. And the Milwaukee crowd was just freeking crazy. I figure I'm just not a good enough rider to ride with a big crowd...

DarthRider
05-31-2006, 12:08 AM
"...I figure I'm just not a good enough rider to ride with a big crowd..."

Or maybe just too intelligent & experienced?

socalrob
05-31-2006, 01:00 AM
All I know is that I had a great time on both Fridays & Saturdays Hill Country Ride. I thought it was pretty natural for the group (were we 30 or so?) to split into subgroups of 6 to 8 riders each. I guess some discussions prior to leaving in the morning might have helped people choose the right group.

On Sat., since I was on a HD, it was pretty obvious I was going to ride with what I would call the non sport group, although considering the bikes being riden, it felt spirited to me.

Bones, would be great to see you in Texas.

arkline
05-31-2006, 10:46 AM
"Or maybe just too intelligent & experienced?"

Dave,

I'd like to think so, but really, I know better...:shade:

Bones
05-31-2006, 10:06 PM
Socal,
I would really like to make next year's ride, if it all comes together. I would likely be riding a Harley, too, as it seems those are the only bikes you can fly somewhere and rent. You used to be able to rent BMW's pretty readily, but not so anymore. I would love to ride TX on a GS. I will keep searching, but haven't found a place to rent BMW's yet.

Which Hog did you ride?

Jeff