Motorcycle Myths

[Road Dog]

Hey Dallara - Check this one out!

http://motorcyclecruiser.com/streetsurvival/dangerous_motorcycle_safety_myths/

Myth 12: A Skilled Rider Can Stop Better with Conventional Brakes than with Anti-Lock Brakes

Extensive testing done recently disproves this popular notion. Even on clean, dry, flat pavement, skilled, experienced riders (who did hundreds of panic stops for the testing on outrigger-equipped motorcycles) stopped in less distance with anti-lock brakes (ABS) than with conventional or linked braking systems. Though the tests didn't include samples on surfaces with slick, dirty or wet spots, ABS certainly would have performed even better under those conditions while eliminating much of the risk of crashing.

The other cool thing about ABS on a motorcycle is that allows you to safely practice panic stops without risking a crash caused by lock-up.

Do you think they used the Washington Post for their testing?

:120:

Bill

[GPM]

Just when we thought it was safe to go back into the water.

Bill, you are a very bad boy....

:062:

[DarthRider]

Now you've done it...

Dave

[Optimus Prime]

:zip:
Oh chit, now you've gone and done it. Perhpas I can stop this before it gets too far.


"ABS isn't used in racing, ergo it is for pussies and obviously has no benifits to real men!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
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[Dallara]

No worries, Folks...

The day I take the word of "Motorcycle CRUISER" magazine over my own research and experiences is probably real close to the day I quit ridin' altogether! :eusa_dance:

After all, their entire first "Myth" is a pretty dubious set of assumptions...



Myth 1: Other Drivers Don't Care About Motorcyclists

It may seem hard to believe at times, but other drivers almost never actually want to hit you. Most of those near-misses come about because they don't always know you are there, even when you are right in front of them, seemingly in plain view. You can be obscured or completely hidden by glare, by other things on or along the road, by the cars roof pillars, the handicap hangtag, or by other traffic. Of course, not all drivers "think motorcycles" and make the effort to look that extra bit harder to see if there might be a motorcyclist hidden by that obscuration or in their blind spot.

Instead of assuming that they will ignore you even when they see you, you should help make it easier for drivers to spot you, especially as the population ages and more drivers have greater difficulty in picking you out. To overcome the fact that you might be hard to see and harder to notice, wear bright colors, especially on your helmet and jacket. Run your high beam during the day. Think about things that can hide you and your bike from other drivers, things that can be as common as the sun behind you, the car ahead in the next lane, or a couple of roadside poles that line up on the driver's line of sight toward you. Make an effort to ride in or move to a location where drivers with potentially conflicting courses can see you before they stray your way.


Pretty much... I believe that cage drivers don't want to hit you, but as to whether or not they CARE whether they hit you or not? Well, that's another story.

They kind of get balled up on number 7, too... at least IMHO. Seems they are telling ya' you don't need to improve your skills, 'cuz even if ya' do it won't help... Nah, better just to slow down, and wear all the gear you can, and then slow down some more, and then avoid any and all accidents, all while slowing down some more...

Geez, they sound as wimpy as the NHTSA...

We can all avoid any possible accident on our motorcycles. How? Stay home... :046:

When it comes ot their experience with ABS you have to ask yourself a question... Exactly WHICH *cruiser* motorcycles come equipped with ABS? I can't think of any in production, can you?

Besides, where are these published studies they allude to? I figure if Jason and K1200RS can't find 'em then nobody can...

Nah, to me the entire rag "Motorcycle Cruiser" is sort of a *myth* masquerading as a motorcycle magazine... :037:

And Jason... Weren't you the one complaining about using too many emoticons? :eusa_naughty:

Cheers!

Allan (Dallara - NAABSCD)

[fnfalman]

When it comes ot their experience with ABS you have to ask yourself a question... Exactly WHICH *cruiser* motorcycles come equipped with ABS? I can't think of any in production, can you?

Allan (Dallara - NAABSCD)

BMW R1200C?:ymca:

[Dallara]

BMW R1200C... In production???

Not any more. Been gone a while, in fact... And it never really was a favorite of "Motorcycle Cruiser", anyway. Nope, that is actually mostly reserved for big Metric *cruisers*, none of which I am aware with that have ABS...

So here's a moto-rag, that is telling you that you should be riding a bike with ABS, but doesn't produce the references to support the tests/studies/etc. they claim have showed such dramatic ABS superiority... and yet they never ride, nor test, bikes equipped with ABS...

Interesting, don't you think? :046:

Cheers!

Allan (Dallara - NAABSCD)

[Deans BMW]

Allan, the vast majority of cruiser riders, I suspect would not be in even the most liberal interpertation expert riders. For them and the style of riding that they do, ABS should be mandatory. The BMW cruiser line was actually way ahead of the game in cruiserdom. They actually, in the relm of cruisers, that is, handle and stop and can go around corners. You find that most cruiser riders use the rear brake only.

[socalrob]

Dean,

There were some pretty acomplished cruiser riders on the Spring Hill Country Ride. I don't think most cruiser riders should be lumped together anymore than most BMW riders. That said, I agree that at least the HD I was riding on that trip was not built for nearly the same controlled hard braking my BMW can do with ease. Those HD raked front ends are not made to handle heavy front braking & the bike's weight bias seems to be much more toward the rear anyway, so it seems to me the HD's are really designed to be rear braked anyway. I do agree that ABS on cruisers would be a big help, & might be a good idea to make it linked. After spending some time on a HD it might be fun to try BMW's version. It'd need some loud pipes though.

Allan,

Its in print that ABS is better. I guess the time for discussion has ended. They wouldn't print it if it weren't true ya know.

[Bones]

Allan, the vast majority of cruiser riders, I suspect would not be in even the most liberal interpertation expert riders. For them and the style of riding that they do, ABS should be mandatory. The BMW cruiser line was actually way ahead of the game in cruiserdom. They actually, in the relm of cruisers, that is, handle and stop and can go around corners. You find that most cruiser riders use the rear brake only.



"Most cruiser riders use the rear brake only." Is that something you derived from empirical data, gut feel or real information? What if we remove the very visible but not demographically the largest sector of the cruiser owners: the dew rag wearing, chain to the back pocket totin' riders? I am certain the demographics around here are different for you folks in larger cities. But my observation is that most of the cruiser owners in these parts
1. Own other bikes that are not cruisers...and a lot of these guys ride dirt bikes, too.
2. Most of the MSF instructors in this region own cruisers AND have multiple bike disease. I know they don't teach rear brake only.

And Allan, are you suggesting that motorcycle riders ARE easily seen? If so, you are very wrong. There have been lots of studies in the medical world to specifically look at what and how people "see" what is in front of them. Most people "see" (ie, perceive/recognize) what they EXPECT to see in a given set of circumstances. On the road, they expect to see what they are looking for and it usually isn't a motorcycle. That is proven fact. Read Temple Grandin's books. Outstanding.

This does not mean that wearing day glo will create a forcefield around you. But it might increase the chances of you getting seen/perceived/recognized as existing. That is why all the road crews here are now mandated to wear hi viz yellow vests. And they ARE seen from blocks away because that isn't a color found in nature.

Are motorcycle crashes related to riding skill?
Anyone want to gander what category of riders I see having crashed the most? I get to sample two categories of data: those who visit the ER and those who manage to escape that but not the grapevine. And even when I am not called, I hear about it, because most of my medical compatriots are not riders and love to tell me about every MC crash they hear of or take care of.

Hint: around here, it is not the cruiser riders and there are more cruiser owners around here than all other categories.


Jeff

[arkline]

Geez, I missed the one about not using your front brakes, dude...you'll fly over the barrs...

[Deans BMW]

You guys might be right and my comment might be more in the myth catagory. I see so many cruiser type riders up here from Phoenix and Tucson that have an extremely hard time with a proper riding technique and seem to crash with regularity on 191, a lot of rear wheel lock up and of course dragging parts in the corners and not making the turn.

[geechie]

Well, as to who crashes the most, do we mean most times period or are we gonna qualify it like most times per miles ridden, or what?

For sure I've crashed more in the last 18 months than my Road King riding step-son. But then too, I've ridden more in that time period by about an order of magnitude. And I certainly have pushed the envelope more than he has.

It's just an apples and oranges kind of thing, don't you think? And of course we could also throw in the part about percentage of serious/fatal crashes into the mix. There's a lot of noise in the data that you have to filter out before you can say anything meaningful.

George

[Road Dog]

I'd really like to see a poll of the riders that have ABS equipped bikes, report how many have actually had an incident where the ABS kicked in and helped.

One of my friends was bragging about how his R1100RSA was the perfect bike.
Then I asked him how many transmissions it has had in it. -- 4
And how many times his ABS brakes have kicked in - 0
And how many times it quit after riding in the rain - 3

I only know of 1 person who said ABS saved his butt.

Bill

[Bones]

Road dog,
Can't wait for that can of worms to be open.

Dean and George,
I think we all face sampling bias. I DO think that there are more NEW riders on cruisers than on other types of bikes and that would surely result in what you are seeing in your area. I also think most (but not all) cruiser riders know that they do not have performance oriented bikes and ride them more like they were designed: cruising. That doesn't mean slow, but it may mean not intentionally pushing corners.

It is my observation that most "newer" riders will do a lot of incorrect things when getting too hot into a corner, resulting in running wide and crashing. This may include mashing the rear brake, aggressively rolling off the throttle, target fixating, or just plain giving up and "laying 'er down," which is clearly the wrong thing to do.

My observation is that those who ride higher performance bikes crash more. That means crash more frequently. They (and the "they" may mean "us") tend to test the performance of their bikes more often either because they can or because the can't-not. We all know what happens eventually.

I do know that I finally realized I COULD NOT ride my R6 on the street without being compelled to ride it fast. That is not a bike you can ride fast enough on the street to be fun, because it is SO capable. So I made it a track only bike. But I see a lot of squids on the street on 600's doing a lot of things including crashing. That is my observation.

To say that a cruiser is inherently less safe than a modern BMW or Ducati is like saying that driving a Chevy Caprice is inherently less safe than driving a Corvette. That is my opinion.

Jeff

[Dallara]

Whoa, I say whooooooooooooooooooooooooa, there Bones! :037:

I don't know how you missed it, but earlier in this thread you said:



And Allan, are you suggesting that motorcycle riders ARE easily seen?


Not just no, but HELL NO, that's not what I'm saying. I don't know how you could have ever gotten that out of what I posted. I said I was pretty sure nobody in a cage wants to hit you, or anybody else for that matter, but...

I dobt very serious if a vast majority of the auto driving public cares one nano-whit about if they do hit you. Remember, I'm in the car business, and the wrecks that I see go through our body shop and the stories about how they got there simply boggle my mind at the unbelievable stupidity, ineptitude, and plain ol' not paying attention running around out there on our streets. People in cars consider it a right to drive, not a privilege, and treat it accordingly - with total apathy and lack of concentration. In other words, they simply don't care that they are bad drivers. They've got insurance, 2 tons of metal around 'em, and a cell phone and they simply are too important to car about motorcycles around them... After all, important calls are coming in... :078:

I don't know about up in New York, but down here (and this is also from doctor buddies of mine who work ER and orthopedic surgery, etc...) Harley's and Metric cruisers are far more representative in crashes than sport bikes. Hell, two more of them - MECHANICS AT THE LOCAL HARLEY-DAVIDSON SHOP - were killed this past week. From what I hear lots of lawyers, accountants, and yes doctors, who are experiencing their "Bad Boy" Harley re-birth period, are spraying themselves all over the road so frequently that some of Corpus' city streets appear to be paved with new leather, complete with fringe.

Of course, sport bikes don't sell down here very well...

Cheers!

Allan (Dallara - AABSCD)

[Bones]

Allan,
I believe every word about what you have deduced about auto drivers. Don't give a hoot about what is going on around them at ALL. But even if they were trying to drive with some due diligence, I think it is clear that drivers just don't see MC riders even when they are there, plain as day. I don't wear day glo gear, but doing so might force one to be noticed to some degree. That was my point.

Today I witnessed something that amazed even me. I was leaving the office and had just crossed the street at an intersection. I could hear the Ambulance about 5 blocks away. The sirens they run on these things around here are absolutely mind bogglingly loud. As it approached the intersection, it slowed to look both ways (as they are supposed to) and a Chrysler mini van traversed the intersection THROUGH A RED LIGHT and almost hit the ambulance which not only had the siren blaring, but had the right of way ANYWAY. What the hell was going on in that van? It was in the middle of the afternoon!

I think your counted MC crashes in Corpus Christie are more likely due to the sampling of large % of cruisers and a lot of traffic with cars and trucks driven by idiots, more than the riding style of the riders or the capabilities of the bikes, if I read your post correctly.

Jeff

[Road Dog]

Let me hijack my own thread since we were talking about visability. When I bought my FZ1 I rode about two blocks on the test ride and had a car pull out in front of me from a parking lot on the right. A week later, at night, another person did the same thing even with a second bike behind me. This has happened several other times on this bike when it seldom happens on my other bikes.

I suspect the cat eye headlights on the bike do not register in the brain of drivers that should be seeing them. I am extra cautious riding this bike because of this.

Bill

[Pacific]

Seems clear to me from this thread that motorcyclists also see what they want to see!

As with most things in life, we tend to file away the evidence that supports our preconceptions and largely ignore the rest. In martial arts training years ago, the Sensei often asked us, "Do you see what you see?" All experience is filtered on the way into the mind, and on the way out when it's reported. It's easy enough to find people who believe in the superiority of their own experience . . . and who could blame them: that's all any of us has to go on.

When I was 18 and driving my car like an ***hole, my buddy cautioned me to slow down. I said, "Don't sweat it, I'm a good driver." To which he responded, "We all believe we're good drivers." Over the years, I've thought of that comment whenever I've heard someone profess his superior abilities behind the wheel (or the bars). One way to announce your superior abilities, of course, is to condemn whole groups of others.

I think it's absurd to believe that drivers don't care if they hit someone. (Obviously, there will be rare exceptions. Heard a story the other day about a guy in a pickup who intentionally ran a rider into the ditch.) In most cases, though, they simply don't believe it will happen -- so it's not an issue. As riders, we know that there's a significant chance it will happen, and so we're vigilant and constantly collect evidence regarding the skill of the drivers/riders around us. My suspicion is that if we tend to distrust the motives of wanna-be-bad-boy HD lawyers et al, then we will be hyper-alert to their errors.

It's that tribal thing in people.

I try not to make assumptions about ANYONE who uses the road. When I took the rider training courses, I remember one instructor telling us, "Some people say, 'The more I ride with others, the more I like to ride alone.'" That stuck with me, as the guy was an ex MC cop who had been riding 30 years and had attended his share of accidents. So when I fall in behind someone on my commute up the highway, or see someone fall in behind me, I do not base assumptions about their skill level on the bike they ride. I watch to see whether they honour the principles we were taught in the course (lane position, following distance, shoulder checks, etc.) and if they appear to be putting themselves or others in danger, I steer clear. I also watch bikers carefully from the car, using the same criteria. And from both vantage points, I see a lot of mistakes from riders. The majority of bonehead moves on the asphalt seem to come from the sport riders. (Perhaps the greater weight of pretension rests with the cruiser set. Hard to know. The majority of self-righteousness . . . hmmmm. :104:)

I'm also aware that anyone watching me will note the occasional transgression.

I recently attended a lecture by a guy who had written a book about consciousness. He reported the kind of driving behaviors that send riders reeling (in both senses) -- cell phone talking, newspaper reading, shaving, lipsticking (both senses . . . or maybe there's three), cereal eating, and so on. He suggested that the problem is this: the brain doesn't believe that driving is all that difficult. He talked about the miles we drive "automatically," when we're lost in thought. We can do this, he said, because we do not need our entire consciousness to keep the car pointed down the road.

As riders, we know that 100% consciousness is the only way to remain alive to the natural end of our days, but that's not the experience of most drivers. Something to think about . . . that all it takes to die is someone being too casual in their consciousness . . . and doing so because his brain thinks it’s a good idea. Oh, ***k!

Jay

[socalrob]

Jay,

Great post. I agree with your comments. I figure that if I ever get taken out on my favorite twisty road, Angeles Crest Highway, it will far more likely be due to an errant rider than due to a car. I guess it does come down to bikes being far mor difficult to ride well than cars are difficult to drive well. I don't really like to ride much with others, except for some from this board I've riden with who are exceptional riders, smooth, fast, almost zen like in their naturalness on bikes.