RELIGION and POLITICS

[Lance1150]

Religion: I've accepted the fact that I just don't know about a LOT of stuff, especially how we got here and what this is all about. God, don't know one way or the other, although the conventional wisdom regarding God seems a bit silly, and the Bible, wow, seems CRAZY to take what's written in there as THE truth and explaination for existance.

Politics: I support our President, and believe that time will show the positive impact on the world of his strong decisions and moral direction.


Topics like these can turn into a nasty free-for-all, but I say that big boys and girls can handle the back and forth of debate.

P.S. I'll never say anything here I wouldn't say to your face... but I'd say a LOT to your face.

Love,
Lance

:)

[BobFV1]

Pecekerheads, carpetbaggers, scallywags, roadsters, miscreants, and friends - DON'T TAKE THE BAIT! :eek:

[DarthRider]

Could we just have a "Religion & Politics" hyperlink here that goes straight to "Patrick's Playhouse" over at Dougie's Bar & Grill?
We could say we're preserving band width for motorcycle stuff.

Dave

[geechie]

Could we just have a "Religion & Politics" hyperlink here that goes straight to "Patrick's Playhouse" over at Dougie's Bar & Grill?

Now that, I like!

George

[supermotoC]

Your Dogma is liable to get run over by your Karma, so let's leave this one alone.

I believe in me & you, and that concept has held the world together religiously & politically for tens of thousands of years, since we crawled out of the primordial soup......

:lightning:

[DJ Down Under]

I have a film to see before I comment...:)

DJ

http://ec1.images-amazon.com/images/G/01/ciu/e8/86/f436b2c008a0391197ba4010._AA240_.L.jpg

[Lance1150]

The hardcore debaters haven't come over yet eh....

I give my permission for some moderator to delete this topic, to test their deleting powers... and wait for someone else to open this can, of worms. :p

Personally, I don't have it in me to debate anyway.

P.S. Haven't ridden my motorcycle for almost two weeks! Ahhhhh.... speaking of Karma, I need a Zen recharge.

[TorqueMonsterMT-01]

"I'll never say anything here I wouldn't say to your face... but I'd say a LOT to your face."

I like the tag line anyway.

[Deans BMW]

I am very proud of my self....................................for keeping quiet.

[BobFV1]

You must use the force, Dean-O Skywalker - Use the force and you will defeat the dark side......

[Dallara]

Must not... Must not... Must not... Maintain control... Don't lose composure...

Ahhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhh!

I CAN'T HOLD BACK ANY LONGER !!!


NO POLITICS OR RELIGION ON THIS BOARD, PLEASE!!!


Ah, there... Now I feel better.

Thank you, and now we return you to your regularly scheduled programming.

Cheers!

Allan (Dallara - Proud to be Banned Where Annoying Frogs Roam Free)

[RiceBurner]

Why not??


You going to get 'Dougie' on us Allan??

This is the non-motorcycle section, and religion/politics is part of life, so why not discuss it? (I assume we're all alive... ;) )

[Bones]

Aside from Politics and Religion, I think we can all agree on a few things:

Not so sure about human beings, BUT
Motorcycles = Intelligent Design.

There must be a God, if I actually own and get to ride a Motorcycle.

Darwin's Theory = Proven every day when you see how some people ride their bikes (and drive a car, for that matter).

:D

[Dallara]

Don't get me wrong, 'Burner...

I have no intention of going "Dougie" on anybody. No way, no how! I promise.

I was merely ASKING that we avoid politics and religion, as I feel that is one of the things that ripped the R1150R site up with the formation of "Patrick's Playhouse"... It turned into a cesspool of never ending rhetoric and repetition - rehashing the same old, tired subjects with more and more vitriol, ad infinitum. There can be no "right" or "wrong" in a political or religious discussion, nor any "winners" or "losers", so the same discussions simply continue unabated seemingly forever, with only the escalation of derogatory comments being the rule...

But as I said, I was merely ASKING that we leave politics and religion off the sections of this site... Not telling, or demanding, or otherwise attempting to force my desires upon others.

I would simply hate it if one of our board sections goes swirling down that same toilet that the "Playhouse" did on the R1150R site...

Nothing more.

Cheers!

Allan (Dallara - The Auto-Ban Man)

[Sir Limpsalot]

Well said that man. When we were going through the "birth pains" of setting this thing up there were discussions aplenty...........................
But,correct me if I'm wrong, the one single thing we ALL aggreed on was no religion or politics - right?

Or,to put it another way, if you want to post about that stuff then fuck off and do it elsewhere.
Si

[1MPH]

the one single thing we ALL aggreed on was no religion or politics - right?

Or,to put it another way, if you want to post about that stuff then fuck off and do it elsewhere.
Si

There you go!!! If it was good enough for the "FOUNDING MEMBERS" it is good enough for me. I mean it is called the Motorcyclist Cafe, not the religious or political cafe. I think this is a great Place and would hate to see it get draged down by politics or religion.

[BMWChef]

Allen,
It only became a cesspool because Sam, Lance, and others who will go unnamed refused to accept what I said as Gospel! There, I've said it...I'm done!

Mark...yes, That Mark!

[Lance1150]

A quick review of this thread, and now I'm glad I started it, shows the trouble with rules in general, and with nebulous (spelling) rules in particular.

Notice the founding members asserting 'their' idea of what we should say... problem.

Notice the differing opinions as to what 'we all agree on', although I guess that's a statement refering to 'founding members'?

Notice the polite asking of 'please don't do this', and the 'if you want to talk about 'that' then fuck off and go elsewhere'... problem.

Do you all see the seeds of what was the main problem on that other board? I do. The 'owner' of that other board wanted the board to reflect 'his' image of right and wrong, appropriate and inappropriate, and that, lead to this place.

And now, we are doing the same thing, with members unsure of what they can say without incurring the wrath of the 'owners', and some core members wanting to dictate right and wrong here.

Dallara:
"It turned into a cesspool of never ending rhetoric and repetition - rehashing the same old, tired subjects with more and more vitriol, ad infinitum. There can be no "right" or "wrong" in a political or religious discussion, nor any "winners" or "losers", so the same discussions simply continue unabated seemingly forever, with only the escalation of derogatory comments being the rule..."

And, if the above if offensive, or tiresome, or whatever... you don't have to keep reading it, clicking into the topic, and/or responding to it... right? What's the 'real' problem with a bunch of guys (girls) having a heated debate? And if someone has their feelings hurt then they can click on Dr. Laura.com for a while.

I know, it's not 'motorcycle related'.... let's not go there, since this site will be FULL of misc. stuff 'not motorcycle related'.

Anyway, you may encounter growing pains, but you still haven't learned the lesson that you should have learned from that other board about 'rules', and thinking you know what's best for others.

A word to the wise...

Love,
Peace,
Flowers,

[MidlifeMark]

I'm not a founding member, nor do I play one on TV, but I'd just as soon leave the religion & politics to the religion & politics sites. Other successful motorcycle-related sites do quite well without religion & politics (e.g. bmwst.com).

[geechie]

So Lance:

What's your solution? And make it profound, please.

George

[Bones]

Lance,

Since I am one of the founding members, I guess I am obligated to offer my 2 cents on this, as it IS actually important to the flavor (pun intended) of how this board pans out.

1. I think we all understand that among the broad group that this board becomes, there WILL be, by definition, the full spectrum of religious and political opinion.
2.UNLIKE opinions about most tings in life (motorcycles, food, recreational activities of all kinds, literature, music......), Religion and Politics strike visceral chords in people in very deep ways.
3. Agreeing to disagree is infinately easier when applied to almost any other topics. Religion and Politics, forget it.
4. It goes beyond feelings getting hurt. People get pissed off to the core. They lose respect. They get hateful. They withdrawal. Or they come out in different ways than they usually would, rather than withdrawing. It is all raw, in ways vastly different than all other topics.
5.With 100% certainty, there would be acrimony at some point.



Now, having said that, I will also add that I really enjoy discussing politics and religion under certain circumstances. I like the challenge. I like to learn from others' opinions. I like to have my thinking forced out of the box. For me, those circumstances include:
1. Knowing the person I am having a conversation well enough to actually care about their positions on potentially difficult topics.
2. Knowing them well enough to be able to really let down my guard enough to consider an opinion that seriously challenges mine, possibly allowing me to learn something.
3. Having confidence that I am engaging in #2 with someone who is willing to do the same, if I have a point to offer.

By definition, #3 is NOT likely to happen on an internet board, universally applied, so for me, I have no interest in engaging in those two specific areas on this board or any other.

I hope you can see that this is VERY different than getting flamed for loving a Speed Triple vs. a Softail Deluxe vs. a K1200S. This is vastly different than feeling passionate about full synthetic oil vs. Dino oil.

There are some guys I love banging heads with over "W" vs Hillary or Roe vs Wade or Intelligent design vs Not. There are guys I love riding with and talking motorcycles with. Some of them are the same guys, but a LOT of them are not.

The essence of Motorcyclist Cafe' is motorcycling. And that is why, in my opinion, a Politics and Religion section will duplicate EXACTLY, the Playhouse noted elsewhere....a section that I could never understand and almost never visited. I couldn't understand why it needed to exist WITHIN this type of board. Fine to have those internet resources for discussion, but why wrap it up into this Forum? There is no sensible reason.

So, there you have some reasons why the founders decided that it was bandwidth consumption that can be done without, here. So, like the Constitution of our great country, let there be a seperation of Church and State.

Now, Lance, if I ever get out to the west coast in your area, or if you get to NY, I would really enjoy hashing out some of these topics over some cold beer...I mean it, and I will buy the beer.

Anyone want to discuss the virtues and pitfalls of Servo assisted ABS brakes?

Jeff

[Dallara]

Lance...

I had no idea that you were incurring ANYONE'S wrath here. At least if you were I didn't see it. Maybe you are saying that just to get a reaction... Who knows?

Best as I can see nobody has threatened to ban you, or kick you off the site, or even really gotten on your case in any way. I saw Simon D's post with the "fuck off" in it more as *tongue-in-cheek* and an attempt at humor more than anything else.

But all that said... Let me make a couple of quick points, especially before you start throwing around very genaralized insults like "you still haven't learned the lesson that you should have learned from that other board about 'rules', and thinking you know what's best for others..." crap.

This board will be owned, operated, administered, moderated, and most of all... SHAPED by the paid membership. From the beginning this board was set up to be run democratically. Members will be nominated for positions like administrator, moderators, treasurers and the like. Those that are nominated will run for election. Those that are elected will serve specific terms. They will each be accountable for their actions, and if deemed necessary by a majority of the members they can be impeached.

In other words, democracy in action, and the desires and wishes of the true VOTING majority will be served, period.

This means, once you pay to be a member, you get ONE VOTE, just like everybody else... No more, no less.

Now what this also means is that you can't shape this board to the image you desire by bullying, innuendo, vague generalized insults, etc.

If the majority of the PAID MEMBERS decide there will not be political or religious discussions on this board, then that's the way it will be period, and no amount of grousing on your part will change that. At the moment only the so-called "Founding Fathers" are actually paid members, and we all did decide back on the MSN Group that we were going to discourage political and religious discussions here. Now so far no one, anywhere (despite your allegations) has mandated against them...

Why?

Because we are waiting while some very dedicated individuals handling the technical aspects of this board get everything set up so you, and anyone esle who desires to, can become paid members and have a vote. When that system is finally in place we plan to have some elections, and some votes about certain subjects just like this one to set policy.

Like it or not, you and I both will be bound by the decisions of the MAJORITY, not one single individual. If you don't like the *legislation* that gets past, or who is in *office*, then you can campaign to change either the legislation or the officials, but you can't violate the *law* once it has been passed by the majority. You can get the *law* changed if you can gain a consensus, but otherwise it's what the *community* wants as a whole that will be the way it is.

Now, again... I think you're just fishing for a controversy, and I, for one, am not going to bite. I asked you if you could refrain from political or religious discussions... I didn't tell you a thing, nor bring down any mythical "wrath" on it.

Nor will I tell you that you can't try and start a political or religious discussion. You're right... If you do, I won't participate, won't read it, and will stay away from it, just like I did with "Patrick's Playhouse" on the other board. But the problem is that for the moment there is no established section for such discussions, and as such they can bleed over into other sections. Many here stated that this board was still under construction and not quite ready for prime time, so you have to try and bear with us on that and let it get finished before you try to dictate what will and won't go here...

And let's just be honest, and straight, here... That is exactly what you are doing with you last post, and as such you are just as guilty of those you decry. You are trying to literally demand that your way be the accepted norm, while ignoring the wishes of the majority.

There is a big difference between the *other* board's dictatorship and what is working in action here... Here it is democracy, not anarchy. If anarchy is what you want then this still isn't the right place for you. If, on the other hand, you like the idea of a true democracy, then stick around, 'cuz that's what will be the rule here.

Cheers!

Allan (Dallara - Proud to be Banned Where Annoying Frogs Roam Free)

[Lance1150]

Overview:
Have rules, which will be subjective and based on 'someone's' idea of good/bad, right/wrong, tasteful/or not, appropriate topics or not, etc...

Or, understand that an internet site will attract ALL sorts, and left to its own devices will generally be self-regulating. Remember, a discussion about a given subject that becomes a shouting match will generally attract those who like to yell, or watch others yelling; and those that don't like that, will quickly realize NOT to click into that particular topic. But most complainers won't do that, they'll butt into something they know offends them and then cry that they've been offended.

I say have VERY loose or no rules... and enjoy the diversity of others.

That's not so profound, but seems realistic.

P.S. The founding fathers of this site should have put a little more thought into the Cafe' theme... I think talk of religion and politics is quite common in the Cafe' realm.

P.S. #2 On that 'other' board, the owner solved his problem by making people pay to access a part of the board where such free-for-alls could occur... I DON'T think that's the way to go. Again, a forum for such non-motorcycling topics can self-regulate, if people stay away from topic that offend them.

P.S. #3 As for 'offensive' photos (naked women etc.) on this site... I say work when you're at work and play on the internet when you're at home... (thought I'd solve that problem for you while I was at it)

Love,

[MidlifeMark]

Well, this should make for an interesting vote when the time comes. And may that time come SOON!

[Acacia]

Lance,
The 'founders' of this site recognized ( there were many discussions) that there are no clear answers to many questions. They also recognized that the imposition of one, or a few persons personal unilateral opinions on others, is equally distasteful.

The clear focus has been that this should be a site at which motorcylists, of all persuasions, should be able to congregate and share their love for the machines and their use with mutual respect and tolerance for each other.

Religion and politics (are two specifically spoken to), as are many other subject that are opinion based, are universally recognized as divisive subjects. As in some cultures, one removes ones shoes before entering the home, likewise, we are respectfully expected to leave religion and politics, or what ever might be considered divisive, out of this 'home'.

As to what is decent? There is a trust that the members will act respectfully and with maturity towards the site and others. I am confident that if some push the bounderies of what most consider respectfull and decent, and that trust, that there will be a ground swell that will address the issue.

It is a motorcylists Cafe, and as Dallara and Bones have clealry stated, that will be democratically run, and in which the 'common good' will be the guide.

We welcome motorcyclists. "...you are family here" - Enjoy. (And, family members dont Sh-one-t on their own door step! You are expected to clean up if you do).

[jamming]

Ok, heres my 2 cents.
I would LOVE to debate Religion and Politics..IN PERSON, FACE TO FACE over a few beers. So I agree with Jeff aka Bones ,, hell, I'll take turns with him buying the beer.
IMHO, this is not the forum for that debate. I always stay out of those discussions, too polarizing. In person you can agree to disagree, and I'll never hammer them for their opinion.
I stayed out of all the trash at the "other site" I still go there, enjoy it, the internet is a vast place, lots of debate forums if you want to get into it.

So there ya go...bring on the pictures of the big boobs..Bob, where are ya when we need ya.
Roger

[BobFV1]

So there ya go...bring on the pictures of the big boobs..Bob, where are ya when we need ya.
Roger

Semper Fi -

http://www.hornyjessica.com/tits/img/top4.jpg

[Bones]

Bob shows up with a picture of breasts, just when you need him. There must be a God.

[Lance1150]

No thanks on the beer, I hate beer.

I never visited the 'playhouse' on the other site, mainly because I wouldn't renew my membership over there and couldn't get in, but doubt that I would have spent much time there. But, wasn't it popular? Weren't there people that enjoyed the debate over there? That's my point really, deciding for other people what they should be interested in talking about.

Notice the little coffee note about this non-motorcycling forum... 'have a Biscotti and talk about life'... but life without religion or politics, of course.

I just get a foul taste whenever someone, or some group, even a democracy, starts telling me what I can talk about. That's the bottom line for me, and why I probably won't become a paying member until I see how this place shakes out... seems destined that the choir will all be singing the same tune, and continue to slap each other's backs, outlaw certain subjects, post endless boob photos and be a democratic version of Doug's place.

[MidlifeMark]

Lance, maybe you need to start a forum for debating. Something like masterdebaters.org maybe? :)

[Est51]

Do dyslexics believe in Dog?

[Acacia]

As a left handed - which noe?

[Acacia]

That was a true dyslexic answer - did you notice I unintentionally left out the 1st 'one'?

:)

[geechie]

Hey Lance,

Well, that wasn't very profound. So shut up.

George

[MidlifeMark]

George,

No need to get ugly; just call the hostess and she'll handle it.

[jamming]

:omg: thanks Bob.
Rog

[arkline]

As has it has just been pointed out to me, I find it ironic that Lance seems not to know that he is actually one of the core group that began this stuff.

Lance, you need to read your emails and check all your email addresses. I'm sure we sent out several emails giving the list of the core members. You're on it, fer shur.

[Deans BMW]

Belive it or not, I agree with the sentement expressed by all above, On the other hand, it has been a total blast trolling for the whacky Libs on the other site. chortle, chortle........................................... .......

[DarthRider]

Damn, I love you guys!

Dave

[BobFV1]

Damn, I love you guys!

Dave

I love you too, Dave - does that make me gay???

[GPM]

I love you too, Dave - does that make me gay???


Uh, well, Yes.

[Lance1150]

Or, in other words, if you don't like it go start your own site... do you begin to hear the familar ring in this? I do.

From time to time I like a bit of a back and forth debate, and heated debates are often 'interesting' at least, but I too wouldn't spend much time in those topics, they get old quick. But that's not the point.

[Lance1150]

Geech...


"Hey Lance,

Well, that wasn't very profound. So shut up.

George"


That was rude, asshole.

Love,

[Dallara]

But really, Lance...

What's your primary point?

Aren't you simply debating now for nothing more than debate's sake?

Honestly, no one here has treated you any more rude than you have treated others in the past on the *old* board. I can't figure out if there is really some point you are trying to make or whether you are just trying to get people all wound up.

As you may have noticed, no one has threatened to *ban* anybody, or taken the bait and really gotten drawn into a real debate or argument with you. Most of it has been good natured... At least as good natured as your "asshole" comment followed by a sarcastic "Love", eh?

Try to read between the lines and see that some of the retorts tossed at you were intended to be humorous. Don't take it all so seriously.

After all, if you want to have a political and religious debate section on this site and board you can... All you have to do is propose the idea for a separate section like and then...

GET ENOUGH MEMBERS TO VOTE IN FAVOR OF IT SO IT CARRIES BY A CLEAR MAJORITY!

If you do all that, and it is passed then you are home free. However, if it doesn't, and you still insist on bringing political and religious debates or baits in here, then expect the populace to set you straight.

That is where this board is far, far, far different than the *other* board. You can have anything here you want... As long as you can get a majority of the members to go along with you.

It don't work that way on Dougie's board.

Cheers, peace, and love, man!

Allan (Dallara - Proud to be Banned Where Mods Think They're Gods)

[Scottybooj]

:zip: .......

just one thing....what else can't we do here. just so we're clear.

[Acacia]

Or, if you really want to discuss R and P, find a buddy and do it off line.

[geechie]

That was rude, asshole.

Perhaps so, Lance. But it was brief, to the point, and you'll notice I didn't resort to name-calling.

Peace.

George

[Dallara]

Scottybooj said:


"just one thing....what else can't we do here. just so we're clear."


Scott,


Right now nothing is really off limits within the bounds of legality and common sense (i.e. no child pornography, etc. that could get us all into a legal hassle or tossed off the server due to terms of service). But please remember, and there is even a "sticky" or two relating to this...


This board is still under construction, and is not yet complete. Until everything is in place, like the ability to collect dues so we can have the membership votes, etc., we all need to be a bit more careful than when everything is fully up and running.


The last thing we want to do right now is make life, and their work, more difficult for our tireless techie types - Abhijeet, Ron, Ken, and Bob. They are working as fast as they can to get this place finished. I don't know who posted the link here on R1150R.net, but in a way they jumped the gun... We weren't really ready to open the doors yet, but still they got opened up early.


I'm glad everyone is here, but in the process of having a new place to post, and the discussions already starting about all sorts of topics, the *construction* has gotten slowed down quite a bit.


This all started as some e-mails flying around the ether between about a dozen folks who were more than a bit dissatisfied with the recent actions on R1150R.net. At one point the e-mail volume got so out of hand that Ron (Arkline) took the initiative to form an MSN group for us to discuss the formation of this new site and board. The MSN group made it much easier to discuss and hash out the myriad of details to get to where we are now. Still, even the MSN group got to be a bit clunky and slow, not to mention confusing with all the different threads all bunched in one section, so the decision was made to move here to the new board server to continue our discussion and fine tune the beast...

Then, as I said, while we were trying to hammer out all the broken pavement and potholes in setting this board up, somebody opened the gates.


Now, while we were hashing out certain details back on the MSN group, we decided that we needed to reach a consensus on certain subjects. One was whether we wanted politics and religion discussed on this board, or whether we even wanted a section like "Patrick's Playhouse" for such discussions. The overwhelming majority vote was *NO*, we did not, period. Teh reasoning being that there were plenty of other places to discuss such topics and that a motorcycling board was not one of them. We reached this conclusion primarily because we al saw what "Patrick's Playhouse" had become, and how certain aspects and feuds from the "Playhouse" bled over into other topic sections.


If you would like to read about our discussions and consensus on this subject simply hop on over to:

http://groups.msn.com/roadstersweb/_homepage.msnw?&pps=k

or

http://groups.msn.com/roadstersweb/

If you need a password to get in I am sure Ron (Arkline) will be happy to set one up for you.

Look, in the end all of the restrictions here will be decided on a strictly democratic basis. Administrators, moderators, and treasurers will be nominated and voted on (and you can even be one if you like - all you have to do is get nominated and elected). They will be elected to specific terms that will be decided on by the paid membership. They will be accountable for all of their actions - i.e. for instance, if they delete a post then they will have explain exactly why, publicly, on the board. Nothing here will happen behind closed doors like it was on the R1150R.net board.

Posting guidelines, policies, rules, topic section additions or deletions, front page content, image restrictions, etc. will all be decided by popular vote, and anything passed can be changed later if a formal proposal is made, a referendum posed, and a vote past by the majority for the change. Even the level of majority will be initially decided by a paid member vote...

But ALL of this hinges on the board getting finished up, polished and buffed, and fully decked out. Until then we are flying a bit blind... VFR, if you will, until we all get rated for IFR.

That is why I ASKED Lance not to post any political or religious subjects. Notice I didn't TELL him not to. Were some others a bit too strong in their opposition ot his views?

Probably... But if Lance truly wants totally free discussion and rebuttal, then he has to be prepared for the backlash. Seems he wants to be able to post whatever he pleases, but yet is disagreeable to others responding as freely as he wants to be allowed to post. That is the dreaded double-standard that IMHO wrecked R1150R.net... Lance appears to want freedom in only one direction - his - while rebuking the fact that others simply responded to him with equal freedom he wanted for himself alone.

Again, the democratic process at work, in a sense. Self-policing by the masses... In this case the overwhelming majority in this thread wanted him to lay off the religion and politics, but he didn't like that consensus, so he immediately lashed out ans accused all of us of being just like Doug on the old board, etc.

Nothing could be further from the truth.

I doubt you will ever see anybody here threatened with being banned. Slapped down by the populace maybe, but banned... No. At least I hope that never happens. When and if it does is when I may be out of here.

Nope, all one needs to do here is follow the majority, and their rules. It really is that simple.

I do hope this helps. I am really not trying to preach or climb on a soapbox here. I simply want everyone to understand that this board is owned by the paid members, run by the paid members, and policed by the paid members... And more importantly, by a clear majority of those paid members.

It is not run by a self-agrandized, self-important, ego-maniacal dictator and his personally appointed thugs.

Cheers!

Allan (Dallara - Proud to be Banned Where Mods Think They're Gods)

[Lance1150]

P.S. Geechie... you can make your point clear without cursing, as you seemed to be doing, but if I think someone is being an asshole I'm more likely to say it, not imply it.

When someone tells me to 'shut up' it only further illustrates a mindset that isn't capable of discussing, disputing, and even arguing... we should all be able to do those things without thinking the sky is falling.

I find Dallara's assessment of what I've been saying in this thread to be WAY overblown... my point has been an anti-censorship point for the most part, but I realize there will be some lines drawn, I just find it disappointing that the group of back-slappers here so far don't find it as easy as I do to just not continue to click into a topic that distresses them, that's my point.

And, as I said before, I'm not likely to be all that involved in such debates as would occur in a religion/politics discussion anyway, just as I never needed to visit the playhouse on the other site, but I do cringe at the thought of being told what I can and can't talk about.

That's it in a nutshell Dallara, no mystery as to my 'agenda'.

[BobFV1]

Lance -

I will let out a little "Founder's Secret" - we actually discussed "pre-banning" some particularly truculent rabble rousers, and your name came up prominently.

We wanted you to have a sandbox to play in, we wanted to be inclusive rather than exclusive, but most of all, we just wanted to see what you would write so we could all gang up on you and piss you off - see how easy it is - George did it and I don't even think he was even trying to!

So Lance, stick around - keep amusing us by trying to stir up shit and by taking yourself seriously and by assuming that we do too. We actually don't...

Love, Bob

[Dallara]

Well, Lance...

If you will notice I haven't yet resorted to name-calling, etc. in this thread, and I won't get drug into it here by you, either.

That said, you needless sarcastic quip:



"...the group of back-slappers here..."



Is completely unnecessary and does nothing to make your point. Normally, as evidenced back in my days on R1150R.net, I would have responded in kind... With something dripping with caustic sarcasm and a few well-placed jabs...

But I am seriously trying to reform a bit due to some discussions we had back on the MSN group.

You may find my previously assessment of your point "WAY overblown", but if you really aren't interested in participating in political or religious threads, and are "not likely to be all that involved", then why are you making an issue of it?

So far NO ONE has told you what you "can and can't talk about..." Not a single soul. Rather, some have told you that they would not be interested in seeing political or religious threads, period. Could they have handled their responses differently? Perhaps...

But then you don't need to continue to strut about suggesting that this new board is nothing more than a bunch of "back slappers", either, right?

You mention that others "here so far don't find it as easy as I do to just not continue to click into a topic that distresses them...", yet you seem to neglect to handle yourself in the same way. Nobody is making you post here, nor are they suggesting that you have to click into any thread. You don't have to come here at all if you find it makes you "cringe"...

As I have told you before, if you want to make absolutely sure that this site does not make you "cringe", then all you have to do is pay your dues, float a referendum, and get whatever lack of rules, regulations, etc. passed by a majority. In other words, if you want a total lack of restraint or decorum here, and total anarchy, then you have to work and campaign for it. Simple as that. The only thing stopping you from having the kind of site you envision is avoiding the work and paying of the dues.

And, of course, those choices are up to you... But just like in this country, if you aren't going to vote, and be part of the political process, then you really don't have much of a leg to stand on complaining, right?

Either you're part of the solution, or you're part of the problem. The choice is up to you.

Cheers!

Allan (Dallara - Proud to be Banned Where Mods Think They're Gods)

[Lance1150]

George, Bob, Allan... you keep making my point as you circle the wagons.

And the 'back-slapper' comment is quite accurate.

A 'democracy' that votes to tell the minority what to say and think is a problem, not a grand solution.

I'll bow out of this discussion for now, I've made a simple point, and heard yours.

[Rchop]

Ahhhh...Yes!! Where would we be without Lance:rolleyes: He sure knows how to get the juices flowing...doesn't he :kiss: :kiss:

[Scottybooj]

:confused:

i'm confoozed. LOL

[supermotoC]

The soup always gets stirred - even by people that don't eat the soup.

Or, "all's well that ends."

[geechie]

Crap! I hate getting dragged back into this. (Oh, am I cursing again?)

Fact is: I hope you all noticed that I did not resort to cursing (at least not in this thread). Lance seems to have confused my quote of his words as somthing that began with me. I do have a tendency to use 'salty language'. But for me "cursing" is the use of hateful terminology. I can't say I never do that, but I sure don't do it very often.

I'm assuming, based on his comments a few posts ago, that Lance has bowed out of this thread, so this is for the rest of you(us): What the hell (Geez, there I go again!) is wrong with a bit of "back-slapping". I have developed some genuine respect and admiration and even fondness for some — make that most — of you guys. Is that not one of the things we want from community? And is this not a community, of sorts? It seems so to me.

Correct me if I'm wrong.

George

[Dallara]

Good point, Geechie...

But that's just it - You use the the term "back slapping" as a positive term relating to friendship, whereas Lance attempts to use "back slappers" as a derogatory term of bunch of like-minded zealots using the democratic process for nothing more than to singularly censor him.

Too bad he misses the entire point in this thread... That he can say anything he wants, or start any thread he wants, and even say what he wants to say anyway he wants...

But that in turn that automatically reserves the right of anyone else here to respond any way they like, too.

He just doesn't like the responses he's getting.

Cheers!

Allan (Dallara - Proud to be Banned Where Mods Think They're Gods)

[arkline]

Quoth Lance:

"A 'democracy' that votes to tell the minority what to say and think is a problem, not a grand solution."

I'd have to agree with this. On the other hand, I don't see where we've forced a group opinion on anyone. Maybe I'm missing something. Was that thread deleted? ;)

[Lance1150]

Normally I would stay out, after saying I would, but you guys are so confused I just have to help you out...

Simple:

This whole discussion on my part is more a devil's advocate exercise than some crusade of mine. :lightbulb:

I've lost my taste for the internet motorcycle thing, long ago, and don't get all that much out of it. The 'other' board was fun, for a while, especially when I felt like people were free to say what they wanted to, and when that changed I didn't visit all that much nor did I renew my membership. From time to time there is something to learn about, or something of interest, but more often than not, for me, it's the sense of a community that is enjoyable to interact with that is the attraction, not all the motorcycle trivia.

That other board began its decline, as a community, when it began to dictate to its members and unreasonably censor them. My two cents here has been in that vein, that telling members they can't talk about religion or politics has the same chilling effect to many people, and will create the same feeling in some as was created on that other board.

And, my ultimate point, is to have few or no rules and just let those who desire to rant and rave with each other about whatever subjects they choose do that, remembering that you don't have to tune in to such topics. You guys are being a bit pussyfied in your stance here about religion and politics, and men generally don't like to be told what they can do by some group of.... guys (notice I didn't say back-slappers).

P.S. I know the majority here, at least those in the core group who began this site, have a different view, and I realize that you've begun this site with a 'no religion or politics' mindset. I'm just offering another viewpoint.
Note: I don't think you're all pussyfied, just some of you.:cat:

Just because your current membership votes to censor certain subjects (which I'm certain they will) doesn't make it any more palatable.:thumbs_down:

That's not so confooosing is it?:confused:

Now I'll bow out again, and if people continue to be confused as to what I've been saying they should just scroll up a bit, it's not that difficult to understand.

P.S. Remember, I don't even give a shit about discussing religion and politics most of the time, and can't put up with such debates for very long. It's not about 'me' here, it's about a principle.

NOTE: One thing you should censor is photos of unattractive women and unattractive breasts... there's one in particular that is NOT of Playboy quality... where are the boob police when you need em...

[Acacia]

"Normally I would stay out, after saying I would, but you guys are so confused I just have to help you out..."

An interesting presumption - a few, well educated, successfull and varied professional persons are now confused.

Really, what do you expect out of Roadsters, Scallywags and the like? Do you really expect to be able to discuss things intelligently, logically, morally and coherantly with that kind of a bunch?

So, the point of all these posts then, in short is, we all need help and you are going to provide that for us? Thank you.

[Dallara]

You got it, Brian...

Lance has us all figured out. We are just a bunch of confused, pussified, girly-guys who can stand up to a Real Man like him.

Yup, ol' Lance is going to show us all the "Way" to true masculinity, along with showing us the one true path to having a successful, vibrant web board.

Come on, Lance... Give us a blueprint. I don't know how we all got this far without ya' !!!

And while you're at it, Lance, maybe you can explain to me the how and why of my being banned over at the R1150R.net board...

Cheers!

Allan (Dallara - Proud to be Banned Where Mods Think They're Gods)

[Bones]

Here are some additional thoughts, though I am quite sure we don't need them.

1. Lance,it is crystal clear, transparent, even, that your intention was not really as you state it. Your intention was to stir it up, plain and simple. You are good at it. Probably better than anyone here at it. You are very consistent.

2. I re read all the posts and not once did I see anyone even suggest that others be told what to say, let alone think. SUGGEST what one wants to have as separate thread areas, yes. But that is not what you are complaining about. There was not a single statement indicating a ban on those topics of politics and religion. It just became clear that most here think it is best left to other sites. While it may be a less controversial topic, I am willing to bet that the majority here would also suggest not having a separate section to discuss
"Wine, Beer and Spirits." That is not to say they are not ever discussed or enjoyed, it is just that it doesn't fit or compliment the core of what goes on here. It is really pretty simple that way. I would also vote "no" on having a separate section on Lemon Pie, even though I love lemon pie.

3. Back slappers. That is a very interesting and perhaps not inaccurate assesment. It is clear that you meant it as an insult, but actually, you were probably not too far off in your description. I am quite sure that if I walked into a Cafe' to meet up with some riding buddies and approached one from behind while he or she was involved in conversation, I would put my hand on their shoulder and say "hey, great to see you" if I meant it. And I probably would mean it, or I wouldn't frequent the place with the purposeful intent of finding them there.

4. There is no paucity of opportunity to interface with Politics and Religion if you are bored with motorcycling topics. If you Google Politics and Religion, and you are on broadband, you will get 151,000,000 hits in 0.07 seconds. That could keep you busy for a while.

5. You state that you don't like coffee.

6. You state that you don't like beer.

7. You state that you have no remaining interest in motorcycling internet forums.

One might wonder "So, why is he here?"

I have a hunch, but it is one I am willing to lean on:
I am betting you are not nearly the miscreant or misanthrope you pretend to be, here. For better or for worse, I have been a voracious reader for many years. I have had the good fortune to become good friends with some "Real" writers over the years (the kind that have agents and get paid real money and have books published that you may have read). Here is something I have learned. Real writers, even those who write fiction (especially those who write fiction), reveal a great deal about themselves in their writing, even if it is unintentional. I read your real writing. Aside from the fact that some of it is quite good, it suggests that you aren't likely the crank you reveal in many of your posts.

I think you get a real kick out of just throwing some words out there and waiting for the dust to fly. I doubt you would be nearly as irritating in person.

Put your wife on the line.....then we will find out real fast.

I am hoping we develop the "Writers Section" that has been discussed before. There is room for it here and it is clear we have some talent among the group. Having sampled some of your writing so far, I would look forward to more.

You will then have the opportunity to bitch about the format of that section, too.

Meanwhile........Google Politics and Religion and have a ball.

Jeff

[arkline]

Heh, heh, heh! Bones said "Lemon Pie"

[TorqueMonsterMT-01]

http://www.engrish.com/image/engrish/brainlocationservice.jpg

[Scottybooj]

I like Lemon Meringue Pie. mmmmm, meringue.:D

[Lance1150]

Debate is good.

Speaking your mind is good.

Differences of opinion are good.

Thanks for the compliment Bones.

I imagine most of you are not all that pussyfied, I mean you ride motorcycles!

For you planning on the Torrey get together this year, I'm going to try to go to that, so I can meet some of you in person, and see if you're really assholes or you just play one on the internet.

That was a joke.

By the way, you've all done a GREAT job getting this site going! And your goal to make it a kinder and gentler place is not all that misguided.

Love,

[Lance1150]

Have you noticed the views and replies stats for this religion and politics discussion. It may be the trainwreck syndrome, but people seem interested in such ranting and raving....

If the site gets slow let me know and I'll post something positive about George Bush....

:)

[geechie]

Lance, you're such a misfit.

Welcome home.

George

[DarthRider]

Lance -

"...If the site gets slow let me know and I'll post something positive about George Bush...."

Wish I could help you but I can't think of a thing...might try Dean-O, he makes up good stuff all the time!

And keep up the good work...at one time I was actually the "designated devil's advovate" in the Biz Logistics group at Celanese Chemical Co. It's sometimes enjoyable & amusing - always necessary - but seldom understood, often resented if not despised by people who should know better. And very seldom appreciated.

I do that here on this board on occassion but you are much better than I am. That's one reason I invited you in although troublemakers like you usually find their way in without help! Thankfully.

Keep that white spot shined squarely on any Emporer's bare asses you see and your work here will be done!

Dave

By the way...I understood your point here. Thanks.

[RiceBurner]

Don't get me wrong, 'Burner...

I have no intention of going "Dougie" on anybody. No way, no how! I promise.

I was merely ASKING that we avoid politics and religion, as I feel that is one of the things that ripped the R1150R site up with the formation of "Patrick's Playhouse"... It turned into a cesspool of never ending rhetoric and repetition - rehashing the same old, tired subjects with more and more vitriol, ad infinitum. There can be no "right" or "wrong" in a political or religious discussion, nor any "winners" or "losers", so the same discussions simply continue unabated seemingly forever, with only the escalation of derogatory comments being the rule...

But as I said, I was merely ASKING that we leave politics and religion off the sections of this site... Not telling, or demanding, or otherwise attempting to force my desires upon others.

I would simply hate it if one of our board sections goes swirling down that same toilet that the "Playhouse" did on the R1150R site...

Nothing more.

Cheers!

Allan (Dallara - The Auto-Ban Man)

Have to admit I never read the Playhouse (never paid my membership), but i don't think it was a good idea to have a 'hidden' forum for public discussions.

The thing I don't like about ANY of this thread is the scent of censorship that it's generating.

I am beginning to think that the whole idea of a democratically run forum is starting to generate uneasy feelings. Remember democracy is a political paradigm, and I'm starting to worry that a "democratically-run" forum is going to generate "forum-politicians".

Remember Douglas Adams' view that "Anyone capable of getting themselves elected to a position of power should on no account be allowed to do the job". :)

IME the best run forum I've used is run by a single person (with a small group of helpers) and he takes a VERY hands off approach, you take hold any view you like, providing you have the strength of will, and sense of humour to support it. :)

IMHO any request to NOT discuss a subject shows a certain weakness of character and an uncertainty of the requesters own convictions in that topic. (no offense obviously).

[RiceBurner]

But,correct me if I'm wrong, the one single thing we ALL aggreed on was no religion or politics - right?

did we?? doubt it somehow. ;)



Or,to put it another way, if you want to post about that stuff then fuck off and do it elsewhere.
Si

Nice. :(

[RiceBurner]

I just get a foul taste whenever someone, or some group, even a democracy, starts telling me what I can talk about. That's the bottom line for me, and why I probably won't become a paying member until I see how this place shakes out... seems destined that the choir will all be singing the same tune, and continue to slap each other's backs, outlaw certain subjects, post endless boob photos and be a democratic version of Doug's place.


Agree (somewhat)

[RiceBurner]

That other board began its decline, as a community, when it began to dictate to its members and unreasonably censor them. My two cents here has been in that vein, that telling members they can't talk about religion or politics has the same chilling effect to many people, and will create the same feeling in some as was created on that other board.

Totally agree

[GPM]

...I am beginning to think that the whole idea of a democratically run forum is starting to generate uneasy feelings. Remember democracy is a [b]political[/i] paradigm, and I'm starting to worry that a "democratically-run" forum is going to generate "forum-politicians".

An interesting conundrum. Perhaps we should vote on whether or not we should vote.
:102:

[Deans BMW]

I think that this thread is great, a lot of intresting well thought out opinions, and unlike the Yo Mama section on Advrider, this thread does indeed have serious and deep thought with out personal attacks.

[RiceBurner]

I think that this thread is great, a lot of intresting well thought out opinions, and unlike the Yo Mama section on Advrider, this thread does indeed have serious and deep thought with out personal attacks.

The sign of a good, mature, intelligent discussion. :)

[Lance1150]

....and, the NICE thing about these internet forums is that topics that aren't posted to will drop further and further out of site, and disappear.

That's the thing that many of you are dismissing, that a religion and/or politics discussion is more often than not WILDLY popular (even on a motorcycle site), among a diverse group of people, which is what a website will become.

I know that most here may be motorcycle fanatics and have no other subjects to discuss or vent about, but many people will become comfortable with the community of folks here and want to talk about other stuff... and most here won't be comfortable with the 'community' of people they may run into on some religion or politics site... people like to talk with people they have some connection with, it's more interesting, and often more meaninful to hear the various points of view that emerge from within your own peer group.

I agree with the riceman that some deep thinking on the 'democracy' of this place is in order, which will require some very OPEN thinking, since the inception of this site was based on some basic principles, that should be examined.

As riceburner cautioned, if you think that politics is a can of worms to TALK about, it could be a can of hornets to base your website on.

:104:

[Bones]

OK Lance, NOW you are talkin'!

As you know, the idea in starting the board was to get together a group to hash out central ideas and get things moving, with the understanding that some of the issues to resolve might involve disagreement.
Way back when, there was some discussion: "Should we let Lance know we are starting this site and invite him?"

I don't recall ANYONE suggesting we shouldn't invite you to join at the outset. Oh, sure, we knew you would TRY to be a pain in the ass from time to time, but I think that might have been part of the appeal.

Re your last post: Don't go getting soft on me. You make alot of sense there. But, please...............
Throw some shit and keep that pot stirred, man!

Jeff

[DarthRider]

Amen, Bonester!

Dave

[RiceBurner]

So if Allen is Doug, does that make me Allen??

:eek:


;)

[Optimus Prime]

This has gotten way out of hand: :020:

My polotical and religious beliefs in a nutshell:
I like Boobs
I enjoy fucking around with pussies
I want nothing to do with dicks.

:028:
(perhaps each of those is a double meaning, in case you're a bit slow)

[RiceBurner]

Out of hand?? it's one thread.

How are you going to manage when a real forum troll stumbles across this place?

I'm merely putting forward a viewpoint and (as is my way) looking for answers to my questions, and it seems like its too much of a problem?

This isn't good for the forum as a whole, and I would humbly suggest that the "powers that be" take some serious time out to think about this.

Questionable subjects will always appear, no matter how much "freedom" is allowed or how many rules there are. But there's a fine line to judge on what is questionable and what is not.

My point about religion & politics is that they are both fundamental parts of life; no matter how much we wish they weren't. I hate discussing them as much as anyone else, but deny me the ability to do something and I'll instantly want to do it. Everyone else is the same. ;)

If there's a bit of news about new reguations for motorcycling are we not allowed to discuss it?? Cos that's going to be a political thread. ;)

[JCsman]

If there's a bit of news about new reguations for motorcycling are we not allowed to discuss it?? Cos that's going to be a political thread. ;)

Sure enough. And we've already lost our virginity in the cafe. Fake pictures of Senator Clinton appear at least twice. Perhaps humor or nudity negates the political factor of those posts.

Of course most politicians fall under the boob category anyway. (Oooops, my bad.)

[BobFV1]

Sure enough. And we've already lost our virginity in the cafe. Fake pictures of Senator Clinton appear at least twice. Perhaps humor or nudity negates the political factor of those posts.

Of course most politicians fall under the boob category anyway. (Oooops, my bad.)

I would consider the tasteful art photo depictions of Senator Clinton to be primarily misogynistic as opposed to political. We have broken misogynism's cherry with our incessant gay-bashing. I guess it boils down to the question"is "politically incorrect" necessarily "political". To me it really isn't - I see humor in all kinds of politically-themed satire, even when it attacks someone who's political point of view happens to be one I share.

[Dallara]

Okay...

Now when someone equates me with Doug from the old board, I do take some amount of offense, even if its meant in fun.:eusa_naughty:

Let's remember that I ASKED that there not be religious or political discussions. I didn't tell anyone they couldn't go there, or demand they didn't, or threaten anyone with banishment...

And yes, Riceburner... If you will look back at the old Roadstersweb MSN board carefully you will find a thread where this topic was discussed and the consensus was the preference that those subjects would not be promoted on this new board.

Maybe it's just me, but I think a consensus of the entire membership (i.e. a majority) is a far, far better way to govern things than Doug's dictatorship on the R1150R board... And if someone wants to make this debate their own personal jihad then I say more power to 'em. Let them promote their views and stance and sway the majority to their side for a consensus. In reality that's what this board is all about.

Just saying something ludicrous like "if you tell me not to do it then that's why I want to do it..." is pretty lame.

Personally, I never participated in any political or religious threads on the old board, and I am sure I won't here. If sme feel they simply cannot contain themselves, and for some weird reason feel they have to try to promote their own political or religious leanings here... Well, fine by me. I don't really care, though I can't understand it.

I would just HATE to see even one of our topic sections swirled down into that cesspool of idiocy that "Patrick's Playhouse" became on the old R1150R board... But hey, if that's what the majority here wants you won't get any argument from me. :102:

:109: :109: :109: :109: :109: :109: :109: :109: :109: :109:

Cheers!

Allan (Dallara)

[arkline]

Back in the roadstersweb days we, as a group, settled on the following rules:

While The Motorcyclist Cafe supports free speech, the Members expect and appreciate mutual respect at all times from all visitors to The Cafe. There are also some core rules for posting here:

The Motorcyclist Cafe does not support behavior or content related to any illegal activities. You may not use The Motorcyclist Cafe to publish, post, distribute, or disseminate defamatory, infringing, or obscene materials. This includes, but is not limited to, child pornography bestiality, incest, illegal drugs, software piracy, and harassment.

Neither the Motorcyclist Cafe nor its members are responsible for any accident, injury, or death which results from following any advice obtained as a a result of reading any post or document on this site or linked to from this site.

I think we have means of social control to limit the nastiness that may result from discussions of topics that are sensitive in nature. Personally, I think anyone who chums the water looking for a pissing contest should be ignored with resounding silence. It takes two (or more) to tangle.

[Dallara]

Well...

Maybe Ron, but...

What about this thread over there?

http://groups.msn.com/roadstersweb/general.msnw?action=get_message&mview=0&ID_Message=809&LastModified=4675554830699508156

(and please read the entire thread)

And there was a consensus met on a number of other issues, as well, that you don't mention... Like the dues discussion and vote.

But maybe I just imagined it all... That's certainly possible.

Cheers!

Allan (Dallara)

[arkline]

Allan,

As I remember it, it was hard to get a quorum let alone a consensus on many of the things discussed on roadstersweb. Of the few we managed to agree on mostly, The Rules and Membership were two we got finalized before the discussion was closed.

Both sets are posted here:

http://www.motorcyclistcafe.com/mission.html

on the main page.

Here is a list of topics that ended up being decided on the roadstersweb site:

"BOARD MEMBERSHIP STATUS
IMAGE SERVER VOTE
BOARD CYA DISCLAIMER VOTE
THE RULES VOTE
VISION/MISSION VOTE
LOGO temporarily closed until all the examples us are available.


MEMBERSHIP DUES and FORUM TOPICS still seem to be getting some commentary, although the TOPICS seems close."

I think we pretty much reached consensus on dues after this was posted. And the discussion of topics continued in some inchoate fashion. I understand that it seems a preponderance of opinion in the thread you cite condemns politics and religion as suitable discussion fodder, but if you check out the umpty-hundred or so other threads, it isn't quite so clear. I'm all for taking this out of the public venue and setting up a poll that would settle the matter once and for all. Would that be more workable?

[Dallara]

Ron said:


"I'm all for taking this out of the public venue and setting up a poll that would settle the matter once and for all. Would that be more workable?"


Ju'Betcha'!

That's the answer in my opinion.

Cheers!

Allan (Dallara)

[supermotoC]

NO ONE expects the Spanish Inquisition!!


Table for four, thank you.


http://img139.imagevenue.com/loc199/th_f2a9d_map.jpg (http://img139.imagevenue.com/img.php?loc=loc199&image=f2a9d_map.jpg)

[Gord]

Well after wading through all the words expended here, I am left with the following thoughts:

Lance, you asked for a community that has a few loose rules and that respects the diversity of others. You have asked for a community that is open-minded. I can appreciate that. But all communities operate with some form of constraint - no community can possibly survive if everyone has complete and unbridled ability to do anything they want. That is not a community, that is chaos. And chaos and freedom are not synonymous.

We are trying to strike a balance here between the totalitarian over-control of other boards and the nastiness of complete and utter chaos. And one man, one vote - democracy - seemed to strike the best balance. All democracies place some limits on personal freedom. Whether you are American, Canadian, British, Australian - whatever - you are constrained in some ways. Speed limits. Helmet laws. Licencing requirements. School marking systems. Taxes. Building codes. Criminal laws. Civil laws. Sure some of them are annoying, but for the most part they are intended to help make living as a group easier. And fortunately, we are not stuck with those laws. In a democracy we can change them if we need to. Seems like a pretty fair system in my mind. And I think it is one that while not perfect (is perfection even possible in this issue?), this board will allow Lance to be Lance far more than other boards ever allowed Lance to be.

All the founders have asked is that we not discuss religion and politics. No one has been threatened or banned. Will it stay this way? Perhaps not. In a democracy things can change. But we are not there yet. We are still working on getting the board functioning the way it is intended. I would hope that you give it time to mature before condemning this board as a clone of some other board you have had a bad experience with. All boards are not created equal.

In the meantime, I look forward to as much constructive vituperativeness as you can possibly provide!

[Deans BMW]

I love this cartoon,

http://www.drudgereport.com/toon.jpg

Would this be constructive vituperativeness?

[RiceBurner]

Enough to get your national flag burned.

(is that an offence yet?)

[BobFV1]

Nice Deano - Now the Muslim extremeists will probably try to burn down the Ace Cafe in London, thinking it is the actual "Motorcyclist Cafe!"