I lowsided the Rockster & need some advises on how to do better

[fnfalman]

Long story short, I lowsided the Rockster at probably around 40-MPH. No more than that and no less than 35-MPH. I was hard on the throttle in 2nd gear out of a tight right corner (marked 15-MPH speed limit) and rolling off the throttle just a hair as I approached the the left corner. I was going to use engine braking to drive through the leftie.

I leaned the bike over, looked through the turn to see my partner up front on the Aprilia Tuono flicking into the next right hander and I felt the cylinder hit the ground and moment later me on the ground sliding and rolling.

I don't remember panicking due to hitting the corner too fast and jamming on the brakes. I thought that I was in total control. One moment I was leaning over, the next moment I was sliding.

The bike suffered minor damages: pushed in headlight, broken left front signal, tweaked left bar end, scratches on the oil cooler cover, scratches and minor dent on left side of fuel tank, destroyed spark plug cover and well grounded out (but not holed through) head cover and the BMW plastic head guard was destroyed too. Minor scuffs to the leathers and my helmet didn't get a scratch.

So, please review these pictures and maybe tell me what else I could do better next time other than slow down and don't override the bike's capability. I took the same corner on the Tuono with aplomb before. It's a familiar road to me.

Maybe my line was incorrect? I know that it wasn't the perfect line, but I didn't think that it was bad either.

[fnfalman]

The head hit the ground and dug in at where the coffee mug is. You can see the groove heading off into the yonder.

http://i50.photobucket.com/albums/f308/fnfalman/Lowsided%20Rockster/f07bd7e4.jpg

[fnfalman]

Where the bike ended up.

http://i50.photobucket.com/albums/f308/fnfalman/Lowsided%20Rockster/805d26b2.jpg

[fnfalman]

Minor damages to self and bike.

http://i50.photobucket.com/albums/f308/fnfalman/Lowsided%20Rockster/Crash033.jpg

[GPM]

Just an uneducated, wild assed guess. Any chance that when you closed the throttle the bike settled on its suspension enough to touch the cylinder head down and levered the rear wheel off the ground? From the picture it looks like an off camber turn, which would reduce your ground clearance.

In any case, glad you're ok and hope the Rock is back in top form soon.

[arkline]

How much might have that crack that runs across the road affected your situation? Is there a definite change of elevation there or is the crack wide enough to have been a sort of edge trap? Hard to speculate, of course. You must have been leaned pretty far over...

Glad you're okay. Your gear doesn't look too much the worse for wear. Take it easy for the next couple of days to see if you really alright. And let us know how much the repairs cost...

[fnfalman]

It was a slightly off-camber turn and I didn't chop the throttle. I was rolling on to accelerate out of the right hander, approaching this corner, roll off just a hair, tipped in and "CRASH!" I know that I didn't chop the throttle after I leaned over.

[Bones]

Here is what I think happened, IF I understand correctly where you were with throttle and seeing the photos (which were very informative, by the way).

It is most likely that one of two things happened, and you should be able to figure out which, since you were on the bike when it took place:
1.the front tire overloaded and you low sided accordingly.
2.the rear tire spun up with you leaned close to maximum lean angle and it stepped out a bit, which if done at maximum lean angle, down you go.

Better than a high side, either way.

Now, #1 is more likely, I think. If you have a bike at maximun lean angle right at the apex of the turn, (and it looks like that is where you were.....though perhaps you apexed a tiny bit early for that particular curve) and you are at the limits of traction and you don't lighten the front tire ever so slightly, the front tire only needs a little more load before it will wash out. R1150 series have a ton of compression braking, so even if you didn't chop the throttle and even if the throttle was open somewhat, you still could have been essentially engine braking a bit and that might have been enough.

#2 scenario is also not difficult to create as the 1150 engine creates quite a bit of torque, so it doesn't take that much positive throttle if the rear is at maximum limits of traction on its edge to spin it. If you spin up the rear while leaned over that far and while still approaching the apex, you can easily low side. Again, better than a high side.

Any idea which of these you did? It looks like clean road (no gravel or oil). Sometimes looking at the tires right after the incident can give you info. too.

Hope that helps.

Freddie Spencer school. Great, make that fantastic training on lean angle and traction.

Jeff

Just looked at the photo again. I am guessing you apexed about 8-10 feet too early(if you consider racing lines), which will make you add lean angle to make the turn, which makes the above scenarios more likely. Early turn in/ early apexing is a common error when approaching a turn too hot going in. It starts to create a few things that all add up to exceeding traction limits.

[fnfalman]

I totally concurred that I apexed a hair early. Since that the bike slid off over the berm and covered in sand & dirt, any marking on the tires pretty much washed off because that's what I looked at and see.

I didn't even feel the pegs dragging. Nonetheless, next time on this road, I think that I'll take the Tuono. Or don't get too carried away with the speed on the Rockster.

[aframen]

strong cojones for sharing so freely; i admire you for that. is it possible you were maxing the speed thru the first curve and not the two curves taken together? the mark starting at the coffee cup and its angle makes it look like the bike wasn't in position to make the crash curve at speed. make sense?

[DJ Down Under]

I think you just lost the front end..low sidded..and slid off...glad you're ok.

DJ

[BobFV1]

fnfalman -

Thank you for sharing your story and the excellent pics with us. First of all, glad you are okay! Looks like your ATGATT did the trick for you - good for you for wearing your gear, and coming out of the crash with little more damaged than your pride.

Well, it is really hard to say what might have gone wrong. I would like to see a picture looking up the road at the right hander that you were looking at when you went down.

I once took a Keith Code school on the same track on which I had lowsided the week before. I got Keith aside and showed him the turn I had gone down in. He gave me a little evil smile and said "Low-side, huh? One of two things, too much lean angle, or not enough throttle control. Maybe both"

It sure looks like your line is bad in this turn, and your lean angle-ground clearance limits were exceeded. Looks like you are in early on a bad line. Chopping the throttle unloaded your rear suspension, destabilizing you, and when your lean angle increased to the point that your valve cover hit while you were not firmly planted, you lost traction and went down. That seems like the most likely scenario to me. If you would have been on the gas when you scraped would you have pulled it out okay? Quite possibly, I had a buddy on an R1100RS at track day with me once, he scraped pretty hard but was firmly planted and was able to roll on the throttle and continue out of the turn with the dirty side down.

If you haven't done a track day in a while, it might be a good time to head out to the track. I was screaming through the Appalachian Mountains last weekend and I applied track stuff several times. Also, the track is more forgiving if you get off line.

[fnfalman]

I think that my main mistake was apexing a bit early. I rolled off the throttle just a hair and that probably didn't help either but I was definitely in the power band.

What the picture didn't show was that the right hander before this one was downhill. I exited it, righted the bike and got on the throttle going uphill then go into this leftie that's both slightly off-cambered AND heading downhill.

This portion of the road is quite challenging and I usually rode it with my Tuono. The couple of times I rode it with the Rockster, I was much milder in the speed department. Yesterday, I was in the groove and felt quite comfortable on the Rockster and apparently I was too comfortable.

[Wild Will]

crash bars on your BMW if you're going to ride it like you stole it. I'm elated that you're unhurt, BTW. If you're cornering fast enough to touch down a cylinder and lever the machine right off its contact patch, the crash bars will help with bike damage. I put them on all my bikes, except the dirt bikes. They look stupid; so what? Touratech make a nice, strong aluminum welded cylinder protector that's FAR better than the plastic faux protector that BMW sell (of which I've ruined a few...).

[kocook]

It is soooo obvious! I mean the cup is right there in the middle of the road!

It was when he reached for his coffee in the middle of that downhill, off-camber, decreasing radius turn.

Geeze, next time wait until you get straightened out a little before taking a sip.

[Deans BMW]

Absolutely, what Kent said.


It is soooo obvious! I mean the cup is right there in the middle of the road!

It was when he reached for his coffee in the middle of that downhill, off-camber, decreasing radius turn.

Geeze, next time wait until you get straightened out a little before taking a sip.

[kocook]

Oh yeah, for advice on how to do a better lowside, try going off a mountain. That worked really well for me once. :embarassed:

[slipknot]

Tire pressures correct? Low air?

[supermotoC]

Fist of all, you can't wear RED while riding an ORANGE bike.

Seriously, ATGATT saved your skin, and other stuff. Good job on that.

After reading all the others interpretations of what happened, here's my .35 stamps worth:

if you "low sided", you couldn't have lost the rear end, unless you locked the back wheel up. More probable is the loss of the front, which happens really fast (when the back steps out, you can "go with it", or roll on some throttle to keep it in check). Let's say you got in hot, and lost the front on some hot & nasty tar snake - when that happens, the valve cover/head touches down. Once THAT happens, the front (most likely) wheel completely loses contact, and you go head first according to centripedal force. If you had lost the rear, you'd have gone in the ditch backwards (or at least rotating that way), and done much less damage to the front end.
Either way, you're a victim momentum. This the time you DON'T want to be on Pikes Peak.

Off-camber is tricky, because you are MUCH farther on the edge of traction of the tires, so hanging off the bike to keep it more upright is the trick I use (or slide it on purpose). Sliding the front is never recommended, ever.

After review of the pics again, you lost the front, and the valve cover took over from there, this is why your motolights didn't get wiped off.

[Paddy's Pig]

If the rider was "On" the throttle at the time of the crash, then it is unlikely the front end washed out. My guess is a bit of sand combined with that MASSIVE BMW Torque is what did you in. This especially true in a slow, 2nd gear corner.

In testing of BMW Boxers, I continually would break the rear tire loose exiting corners on these same type roads. This mostly due to improper suspension set up (typically too stiff) and the basic design flaws inherent to the Paralever system.

Combine this with 72 ft. lbs. of torque and away you go.

You need a track day and an R6.

Patrick:020:

[supermotoC]

...and rolling off the throttle just a hair as I approached the the left corner. I was going to use engine braking to drive through the leftie.
I leaned the bike over, looked through the turn to see my partner up front on the Aprilia Tuono flicking into the next right hander and I felt the cylinder hit the ground and moment later me on the ground sliding and rolling.

No "flawed paralever system malfunction" here. Front tire couldn't take the braking, the turning, and the heeling over all in one move. Basically, front end wash out.
Next?

[Paddy's Pig]

Oh shit, you're right, sorry, misread original post.

Next? Next would be the rider never felt the front end starting to
go because of lack of feedback from the numb Telelever front end? :pot:

I bettcha yer Duke wouldna done that......I know mine would certainly
not have! Wished I'd never sold that Duke ll.

Patrick :020:

[fnfalman]

If I were on a forked bike, I doubt that I could have felt the front end let go either. The bottom line is that I screwed up and rode the bike the way it wasn't meant to be ridden. The Rock is capable but not to the point where it can compensate for minute rider's errors at the edge of its capability.

[Asphalt]

Glad you are OK...now sit down and listen.
Well, being a tad overweight, I feel I can say the following...You're fat. This is an absolute contributor to overloading the front end, in a slight downhill, doing 45mph in second gear. It all adds up. You can probably remember feeling your gut smash into the tank a bit...and even then the back tire would spin out because you had to be winding out the RPM's in second gear. You might have lost both tires at the same time. But, losing weight helps a lot.
The other thing that nobody commented on was the fact that you keep saying that you would do better on your Tuono, and your Tuono would not have done that and you won't take the Rockster over its limits again. Remember...you reached your limits...not the bikes.
I am not flaming here...weight is always overlooked or denied by a LOT of riders. Just putting it out there. When I put on weight, riding is totally different.

[NakedRider]

I think the head touching down caused the crash. Reading his initial post again that was the first thing he noticed.

Remember the Boxer Cup? They would slide the heads and sometimes loose both ends.

I had one experience very similar to this. This is *really* stupid of me but... I had a Boxer Cup prep. I had never scraped the pegs or anything. One day I made it a "mission". There's a posted 10 MPH turn in the canyon where I ride. My objective for the day was to lean the bike so far that I scraped the peg. Speed wasn't the objective (I usually exit the turn at about 40). I just wanted to lean so far that I touched down.

So off I go and I enter the turn and *really* lean expecting to hear metal scraping and to feel the peg touch down. All of a sudden I hear a thump and the whole bike shakes and the front comes OFF the ground!!! I recovered and wondered what happend. I pulled over to the side of the road and sure enough I had hit down the head on it's plastic valve cover rather than the peg.

Since the first thing mentioned is the head hitting the ground I think that's what caused the wash out. He may have lost the front and the back at the same time but, for sure, the front lost traction.

I've had a Rockster in the past. I'm surprised that the peg didn't hit down first especially in an off-camber turn.

Glad you came out OK.

[Wild Will]

I spoke with Nate Kern a couple of days ago, and he was riding his S at Virginia Raceway Monday, and levered the bike off the contact patch with the cylinder head. He got back on and adjusted his attitude, and was fine, as was the S.

Good call on the cylinder touching down. One thing I have done with MY GS, with the help of 2 friends, is to carefully lay it down to actually see what'll touch down first. If you have a BMW twin, give it a try. Armored valve covers anyone?

[fotomoto]

What touches down first on a flat twin beemer? The heads or foot peg feelers?

[Bones]

It would seem that it depends on the model.

I do recall scraping the pegs on my R1150R once in a while and the cylinder heads (with protective covers) did not scrape. The more race oriented bikes such as an S model would likely have the pegs higher and more posteriorly positioned which would then be out of the way, leaving the cylinder heads available to create extreme lean angle mayhem.

On the GS, the available lean angle is huge, even though the pegs are not high and posterior. But, that bike has a tall orientation with the engine located further from terra firma.

Like my high school math teacher said "Life is all about Geometry!" Of course, he had bad breath, an off putting wardrobe, and ill fitting shoes.

Just remember, "Traction good......Lean Angle bad."

Jeff

[NakedRider]

What touches down first on a flat twin beemer? The heads or foot peg feelers?

I agree with Bones. It depends on the model - and the suspension set up. There was a huge debate on this on another site a while back for the 1100S. Some touched down pegs first, for others it was the head. Suspension, your weight, and where you sit are all a factor.

With my 1100S it was the head. With my GS the right side it was the foot peg and brake lever. On the left side of my GS it was the side stand!! Hitting the side stand can cause the rear to wash out but that's another story....

[DarthRider]

What touches down first is also dependant on cornering speed.
On my R1150R I once tried what someone else mentioned...very slow, extreme lean angle cornering just to see what touched first. This was in a perfectly paved cul-de-sac to eliminate variables...and not get run over!
On both left & right turns the valve cover plastic guards touched first, as I expected.
But "over aggressive" cornering in the real world sees the center stand touching first on right handers and the side stand touching first on lefties.
The effects of suspension compression changes everything!
Suspension preload is, of course, another variable.
Oddly enough, I never touched down with the "curb feelers" on the footpegs with all this.
YRMV...