Sealed Final Drive

[Wild Will]

I've brought this up before, but nobody 'bit'. I have a nagging suspicion about the sealed BMW final drive unit. What happens to all the metal particles that will accumulate in the tiny reservior of gear lube over time? Will they 'eat' the ring and pinion gears? Will the unit hold together just until the warranty has expired? I have never drained a final drive that didn't have some metal particles in solution; that's the point of changing the lube. What would be the big deal of allowing final drive fluid changes; was this yet another marketing gimmick?

[Dallara]

I think you hit the nail on the head, Will...

BMW wants their lube, and only their lube, in the final FOR THE WARRANTY PERIOD, and nobody messing with it during that time...

And then, they just don't care.

I'm with you. I have NEVER in changing the final drive lube on literally thousands of bikes (Yamaha's and Honda's mostly) with shaft drive found a single one that at least some metallic sheen and bits were seen upon draining. Over a long enough period of time all this metal, in suspension in the thick final drive fluid, would become one hell of a grinding compound it seems to me.

All that said, not knowing the material, heat treating, or any possible surface treatments or coatings on the final drive gears themselves it is impossible to know if they could stand up to that kind of abuse...

But the bigger question to me is - What if a final drive seal starts leaking?

Even if it's under warranty the dealer can't replace the seal and refill the rear end. I guess the only solution for him is to swap out the entire leaking final drive for a new one... Wonder what that begins to cost once the warranty has expired?

Good question, and definitely food for thought, Will.

Dean, have you ever spoke with Chris at San Jose about this, or anybody else with BMW?

Cheers!

Allan (Dallara - NAABSCD)

[socalrob]

Is it that there is no recommended change interval and they are saying you don't have to change it, or is the unit truly sealed with no filler plug. If it is just lacking a drain lpug I would think you might be able to pump out the old lube from the filler hole. How do they fill them in the factory? Is there a spot that could be tapped?

[DJ Down Under]

What happens to all the metal particles that will accumulate in the tiny reservoir of gear lube over time?

I'm no expert..but why should there be any in there...is it true the new BMW's have the rear end sealed for life..so BMW must not think it's an issue.

I know we change diff oil in cars..do they have metal bits come out in the oil?

It's different from a gearbox were gears are moving and mashing.

Just my thoughts..:003:

DJ

[Acacia]

[QUOTE=DJ Down Under]It's different from a gearbox were gears are moving and mashing.


The rear drive is a 'gear box', DJ - a crown and pinion.

Bits mashing about? Unless they have a significant magnet to catch the 'bits' I would also suspect a nice grinding paste solution! But that too will accumulate a large amount of fuzz over time!

[DJ Down Under]

Ok...maybe BMW have some special ceramic coating on the crown and pinion gears.

What I meant was..(as I back pedal :087: )..that there are no gear changes taking place..you know..doing the crunch,clunk thing.

DJ

[Deans BMW]

Talked to the service mgr at SJBMW yesterday, and as of yet, they have not had a final drive problem yet. On Advrider, they have a procedure for changing the rear drive oil, something like disconnecting the torque arm, draining out the rear fill plug and refilling with synthetic 75/90 GL5.

I belive that some cars are now comming with sealed rear drive units. Will do some more research as Chris was out when I called.

[Cheesedick]

The thing I would be concerned about most is BMW's recent (8 years or so) inability to consistently build final drives that are "bulletproof". Don't forget the spate of bearing, seal & u-joint failures. Whether they continue to have this problem ("non-problem" according to BMW) with late/current models I don't know.
Maybe that's why their prices are so high. A motorcycle that expensive couldn't possibly have any problems, right? Or at least will stay in the "statistically insignificant" range. Problem? What problem?
Or maybe as in the case of clutch spline failures, they will just shrug off the failures with the "improper owner use & maintenance" dodge. Never mind the fact that clutch splines and now rear drives are non-maintenance schedule items.

Cheesedick (talking to himself again)

[jamming]

I thought the same thing when I bought my ST, but with more thought, I wonder if BMW has a special process of hardning the gear set. There are a few I know of and lots more new ones I'm sure I don't know of that take metal way up on the Rockwell scale of hardness. I did a project in college that explored those processes. NASA uses some metals that fall in the 90's on the scale. Any readings over 100 are generally considered unreliable.
As far as metal chips, I agree, I've always seen them present in drained fluid.
Allan,I thought that also, what about leaks?
What it boils down to me is, If it fails it fails, I'm gonna ride it as long and as hard as I can. Fix it, repeat.
Roger

[Cheesedick]

I'm just old school but I like fresh fluids once in a while for reasons stated in this thread. I guess I'd have to do that ADVrider trick of removing everything, turning parts upside down, pouring out the old oil and replacing with...synthetic? I would have thought they would start with syn if it is never to be changed.
Hey, an easy way to do that is when the back half of the motorcycle is off anyway to enable the other non-maintenence procedure of clutch-spline lubing!
Maybe rear drives are now considered "wear items" to be replaced every X miles, or at failure, whichever comes first.
Sort of like a...chain? A very expensive one?
Jap bikes are starting to look pretty good again, damn.

CheddarPeter, a Voice in the Wilderness

[socalrob]

What kills me about topics like BMW rear drive failures, is that the internet can make it seem like it happens all the time, when maybe its a half of one percent thing. Advrider has something like 30,000 posters, so 30 guys talking about rear drive failures MAY be insignificant. I just want to know, is it 10 percent failure or a tenth of a percent failure rate.

Same thing with ABS failures & spline failures.

And how are these failures translating between the 1150 line & the 1200 line?

Strikes me that BMW is using the same rear drive on both the new K bikes & new R bikes. I would think the R bikes would be much easier on them, having much less HP. Maybe though its more a function of bike weight & geometry of the shaft. It is hard to believe that BMW does not make this iconic part of their bikes absolutely bullet proof.

[Wild Will]

the final drive will not fail until after the warranty expires. It has such a small gear oil reservoir, with that nifty hole in the middle of the rear drive. I'd want to have synthetic in my final drive and gearbox. I'd also want a magnetic drain plug. Maybe metallurgy has reached that pinnacle in Deutschland where gear wear is the thing of the past, but forgive me for being a skeptic. Fresh fluids give the rider confidence, IMO.
Now for a story: November, San Francisco area motorcycle show, BMW display area. There's that fine almost finished blown BMW 4 valve that SJBMW is building! Those guys are always on the cutting edge. I'm milling about and a guy as old as I am, very distinguised with a white tinge to his beard, asks me what I ride. We get into an interesting conversation and turns out we have very similar experiences to share. I tell him "I just don't trust a final drive that's perma-sealed". He sidles a bit closer to me and says "Neither do I. I think it's a marketing ploy that BMW is gambling on. The customer wants less maintenance nowadays. They want 100,000 oil changes and spark plugs for life. So "Corporate" is marketing to the market's desire. If the bike holds together until warranty is up, they're scott free. But when I get one, I'll figure out how to drill and tap a drain and refill in that drive unit. For now, you can do it with a syphon hose. Some use a suction hose to pull the gear oil out".
Well, that was most interesting, says I. Candor from a manufacturers rep. Just a couple of moto bros sharing some small talk. Bottom line is "time will tell" us if this sealed final drive will go the distance. I sure hope it does.

[Dallara]

Yeah, but...

How ya' gonna change the fluids in a sealed final drive without popping a seal to get to the fluid area, and even then there will be a bearing between you and there.

Would be easy enough to strip the housing, weld on a couple of thick bosses, drill 'em out and tap 'em, and then slap it all back together, but why should you have to just because a manufacturer wants to try a "marketing ploy"?

This is one of my many problems philosophically with BMW lately...

For years they have been telling us their servo-assisted ABS was superior to standard braking systems, only it's not. Then they start raising prices to do no more than hope to differentiate themselves more from the Japanese and align themselves more with the Harley value/image stance. Next is CAN-BUS and a sealed final drive unit...

Seems to me that BMW is giving the customer what BMW Thinks the Customer Wants, without ever bothering to ask the customer - i.e. "Ve know better v'hat ze customer v'ants und v'hat's good for 'eem."

I know it doesn't mean a thing to anybody else (and it shouldn't), but BMW has pretty much lost me as a future customer unless there are some major changes made... From what I can see now I will never buy another one.

Cheers!

Allan (Dallara - NAABSCD)

[DarthRider]

Allan said: "Seems to me that BMW is giving the customer what BMW Thinks the Customer Wants,"

I don't even really think it's that. I think it's entirely or maybe also the old "Technology just because we can" thing, and never mind what the customer wants or needs.
Sort of like linked & boosted braking systems that were already so good they will detach your retinas and have superior feel and controllabilty.
Nobody asked for that either.
Here's a novel thought - How 'bought plowing all that superior German intellect & technology into making BETTER motorcycles at LOWER cost/price?
I'd love to have another BMW (it would be my 4th) but I'm sure I never will. Too much weird juju and cost. I won't & can't play as a result.

Dave

[Deans BMW]

Had a long conversation with Chris at SJBMW today about the rear drive on the new bikes starting with the R1200GS. As some of you might know they are one of the largest BMW dealers in the country in terms of units sold, parts sold and BMW service work and as Will said, "on the cutting edge". Also as some of you all might know, I have a very deep and extensive relationship with them and have known Chris for over 30 years, in fact I hired him right out of college in 75 or 76, he also worked at BMW of Denver at the time.

To make a long story short, to date, SJBMW has not delt with or seen a rear drive problem on the new bikes. They have changed the oil in one rear drive unit and used the BMW supplied oil, Chris says to use the BMW recomended oil. The sealed rear drive unit is supposed to last the life of the bike with out an oil change. Chris says that with severe use, he would occasionaly change the rear drive oil.

Iron Horse BMW in Tucson, Az, one of the largest GS dealers in the US reports the same results.

A problem gets reported on the internet and before long becomes some rampant problem. There are now lots of the new BMW's with easily milege in the 60,000 plus mile range. The same rear unit design is used in the 150 RWHP K bikes with a similar history of a paucity of problems.

The same sealed unit concept is used in BMW cars and others as well.

[socalrob]

Dean,

So the oil CAN be changed. Thats good to know. Also good to know that the rear drive units seem to be better than the old ones reliability wise.

Not to hijack the thread, but could you inquire about Spline Failures on the new R bikes? I curious as to if BMW has addressed any problems with some changes. The RT sites always seem to be discussing Spline stuff.

Last question, does anyone know for sure if the GSA1200 is coming without Servo ABS, ie, is the ABS system going to be like the R1200S?

[Deans BMW]

Rob, will do on the splines.


Last question, does anyone know for sure if the GSA1200 is coming without Servo ABS, ie, is the ABS system going to be like the R1200S?


It is my understanding that the entire line will be switching to the Contental ABS system as on the new R1200S.

I'll be out to SJBMW soon for an extended stay plus the 49er....can not wait.

[DarthRider]

Dean-O, what's the "continental ABS system"?
How did Chris change the rear drive oil with a sealed unit?

Dave

[Deans BMW]

The Contental ABS system ( different Vendor) is the one used on the new R1200S, and from what I understand will be the new Beemer systen, I hear that the switch over will be during the August summer break.

There is a fill plug on the after part of the ring housing. The torque arm is disconnected allowing the drive unit to swivel down draining the rear unit thru the fill hole. Chris does not what the special BMW oil is, could be synth. but for safety sake he recomends the specified BMW oil.

Some where on the Adv Site, there is a comprehensive how to, re the new rear drive unit.

[Optimus Prime]

The Contental ABS system ( different Vendor) is the one used on the new R1200S, and from what I understand will be the new Beemer systen, I hear that the switch over will be during the August summer break.

:041:

[Dallara]

Continental, the same people who make your Road Attack tires IIRC, Dave, are the ones who have developed this non-servo asssited ABS system...

Which is quite different from all the previous generations of overly complex Bosch systems BMW has used in the past.

There is a world of difference in the systems, and the newer system should be a vast improvement, though still not the total answer some hope for... That's why it has the true ability to be switched COMPLETELY off, unlike the Bosch system.

Actually, with the previous "switchable" Bosch system that was used on BMW bikes you could switch of the ABS - the anti-lock braking - feature, but not the servos - i.e. the lever still had it's wooden, no feedback feel, you could just lock the wheels if you liked.

Cheers!

Allan (Dallara - NAABSCD)

[Deans BMW]

If all goes well, I will be riding a new Ohlin equipped R1200S prior to the 49er. It will not be mine........................but will be able to get plenty of seat time, none the less. Just so you know, it will be yellow with the wide rear wheel and 190 series tire and the factory Ohlins. Remus plans to get us their first complete exhaust system. To say that I am not excited would be the understatement of the century.............

Worry not, I will post in the Cafe any and all impressions that I can. Oh, if I could only channel Wild Wills ability with the written word.

[Wild Will]

You're a legend! I'm just a lucky Tool Ho. Is anybody else from the Cafe going to the 49er Rally in Auburn, Ca.? I cannot wait to see that "S", Dean! Thanks for the kind words.

[socalrob]

Allan,

Can you shut off the ABS on your new FJR? I'm curious because if you can shut it off then you could do some braking experiments to see how much brake force the ABS is "leaving on the table" before letting up on the brakes. No what I mean? I suspect after riding your RR that on the my 2004 R1150R the ABS is engaging early, at least on the rear wheel. Of course that may vary from bike to bike, as I remember some on Doug's board saying they never engaged the ABS, I can engage mine very easily on the rear wheel. While I personally like the concept of ABS, I do look forward to having a bike where its able to be shut off, for fun experiments if nothing else.

[Dallara]

Can I disable the ABS on teh FJR, Rob?

Well, the jury still seems to out on that one. You ask one person and they say "Yes, you simply remove a fuse...", but then another one chimes in that you can't do that as it screws with the ECU during it's diagnostics during start-up, and then another guy says...

You get the idea.

I am being very slow, plodding, and methodical about the possible disabling of the Yamaha's ABS, primarily because I don't want to really screw something up and void a 5 year warranty! :104:

I'm sure it can be done. Only problem is it appears no one I can find has actually done it before on an ABS-equipped FJR. Now mind you, 2006 is the first year a buyer didn't have a choice about ABS. Prior years you could get the bike with or without, and by far the vast majority of the FJR's out there do NOT have ABS I have discovered. Seems lots of FJR owners who have a non-ABS FJR "have a buddy with ABS who disabled it...", but I haen't been able to speak directly with one of those yet.

As of this evening I will have a 2005 Service Manual, and by some real magic work I am actually one of the few people in the entire USA that already has a copy of the 2006 USA FJR Service Manual (you should see those threads on the FJR forum I frequent!!! :037: ). So tonight and this weekend will be the first chance I get to see the real difference, mechanically and electrically, between an ABS and non-ABS FJR on paper. I trust with that knowledge and a little research and experimentation on my own I will be able to figure out how to disable the ABS without side effects.

I may even be able ot figure out, at least on paper, how to alter the ABS engagement threshold, which would be the real Holy Grail. If I could do that I could simply dial the ABS actuation threshold so high that it would only engage under the most slippery of conditions, like in the rain. Right now I get it engaging all the bloody time in the front (I rarely use the rear brakes), and it really can get in my way. I am guessing that it has an accelerometer in the system that senses the deceleration G's, along with wheel/road speed differences, and uses that for actuation as much as anything else to decide its tip-in point... Some ABS systems like to limit deceleration to no more than one G so as not to freak out the operator. Some of us are used to higher than one G deceleration rates and don't need that band-aid. Needless to say, this is another drawback to ABS systems that rarely gets mentioned...

Anyway, sorry for rambling off on a tangent there...

I am still researching disabling the ABS, and as soon as I figure the best course of action I will post it here on the board. If I can do it easily enough I will be more than happy to do some back-to-back testing of my own.

Cheers!

Allan (Dallara - NAABSCD)

[Deans BMW]

I am trying to see if I can get a linked servo equiped ABS system for my KLR. :058:

[Dallara]

Harley has an available retrofit ABS system kit...

They developed it for the police bike bid specs in California. Though I am sure the Harley kit won't bolt on your KLR directly, Dean, I think you could make up your own KLR ABS kit for next to nothing...

Ya' know why?

Word is that Harley's ABS *system* was simply brakes pads so rock-hard it was simply impossible to lock the wheels at any speed or on any surface! Typical "Made in Milwaukee" solution, eh?

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Cheers!

Allan (Dalalra - NAABSCD)

[Arby]

Now, let's see. How many bikes did Harley sell last year in spite of not having ABS? And how many BILLIONS of dollars did they gross?

And, they don't need to change the lube in the final drive.:icon_:058:

RB