How many fingers, and when?

[Pacific]

This one's for Bob, or anyone. I often read references to fingers on the brake lever, and I'm a little unclear about best practice on this one. I took both the basic safety training course and the traffic course in my area, but I don't recall discussion as to when you should cover the break, and with what technique. Corners . . . well, that seems obvious enough. But do people customarily ride with two fingers covering the brake at all times, or always in the city, as needed in the twisties, etc? It seems a common sense thing, of course, but again . . . best practice?

Jay

[Gord]

Our instructors told us not to cover either lever. Four fingers on the grips unless you are shifting or braking. Their logic, as I recall (perhaps erroneously) was that you could inadvertently clutch or brake in when you don't want to, whereas having to move your hand to do either would prevent inadvertent mistakes.

I tend to follow this advice and not cover either lever. But if my hands are starting to feel stiff, I will often alternate between covering / not covering just to avoid cramps and pain.

[DJ Down Under]

Because I ride alot around town I ride with two fingers resting on the brake ready for an emergency stop...when the road looks clear ahead I take them off.

I only use two fingers on the clutch most of the time also..unless I'm braking hard to stop...this results in half pulling the clutch for gear changes...and it works well.

DJ

[BobFV1]

Hi Jay -

This really depends on your experience level and riding style. Gord has provided a pretty good schoolbook answer which could also translate well out on to the street. In the MSF Basic RiderCourse there are two levels - level one is basic operation and level two are more advanced riding skills involving fine motor coordination. The course is taught at a level appropriate for beginners who have never ridden before. In level one we insist that riders cover the clutch with all four fingers at all times, and that they never ever cover the front brake at any time except when mounting or dismounting the bike or when actually braking. Both of these instructions are for rider safety.

I think the principle of not covering the front brake unless you are using it is pretty sound. I would be especially cautious about covering it in a curve, because application of the front brake in a curve can cause the front wheel to wash out and an accident to occur. Braking should be done when slowing to a stop or when slowing to set entry speed for a turn prior to the turn. It should be completed before you turn, so there should be no need to cover the front brake at that point. I generally cover the front brake when approaching a turn and when braking. I use two or three fingers so I can retain control of the throttle with the other one or two fingers. You will find different opinions on this, but that is what works for me.

So in summary, stay off that front brake when you are in turns, and cover it as you feel appropriate while slowing and braking, making sure you can retain throttle control simultaneously.

Good luck and ride safe.

[Pacific]

Thanks for the feedback. It all makes sense. It has not been my practice to cover the brake as a matter of course. I do as you say and brake prior to turn entry, but I have occasionally found myself guarding the brake in unfamiliar territory (twisties with possible hidden access roads/lots of driveways), and in the city when there's lots of volume/movement in my commute. Just wondered about standard practice. Will take all of this excellent advice.

Jay

[Bones]

Well, it looks like I am in the minority here. But THIS is a topic that I feel pretty strongly about. And since it is one that directly impacts rider saftey and control, I will share my difference of opinion and strong conclusions,here.


The answers given do, indeed, follow the textbook MFS guidlines. I certainly bought into it all when I took the MSF course. But I see several MEANINGFUL problems with their position on this issue.

Going from all fingers on the grips to four fingers on the brake lever on any modern (non Harley) bike WHEN (not if) you have a panic or even urgent braking encounter will definately more likely lead to a front end wash out or slide than if you started with two fingers covering the lever and applied progressively. I guarantee that. And Bob, as an experienced rider and coach, you know that is true. MSF teaches progressive and firm application of the front brake. That is fine in theory, but come on.....that is analagous to telling an 18 year old male virgin to get it on with J. Lo and not have a premature ejaculation. Ain't gonna happen. There will be handful of brake GRABBED and the forks will compress and weight will be shifted forward and the front wheel will load like crazy, etc. etc. And everyone will have a panic braking experience at some time, new riders especially.

I DO agree that teaching trail braking techniques to new riders is not a good idea. But, at what point do you transition to that? I don't have the answer to that. But I do know with absolute certainty that once I learned to trail brake properly (and that took a while with a lot of training and practice and supervision with some amazing riders under controlled conditions) it literally transformed the sport of motorcycle riding for me. I am not saying a trail to the apex of every turn in the real world, BUT, being able to in a way that is second nature has made riding much much safer and all of my riding much smoother.

Further, riding with two fingers covering the brake lever saves very, very valuable time once the instant of realization that you need to apply front brake arrives. It also allows you to apply it in a NON grabby way and modulate rather than mash. And sometimes the difference between crashing into something or not is only a few feet. If you are starting your panic braking at 60 mph, the time saved from fingers on the grip to lever may be 30-40 feet or more. Even if you still crash into something, it may make the difference between contact at 3 mph vs 30 mph, as the rates of deceleration are pretty steep.

Next: "accidentally" applying the brakes or pulling in the clutch? I guess it could happen. But what about "accidentally" twisting the throttle? I mean your hand is on that all the time. Or "accidentally" not doing anything under stress....THAT is more likely to happen to a new rider......I think we have all observed that. We also know that a lot of riders, especially new ones, will "accidentally" stomp on the rear brake

I ride with my two fingers covering brake and clutch levers about 80% of the time. I do it all the time when in any traffic. I do it all the time when riding anywhere near cross streets even without traffic. I do it all the time when riding in the rain, when gentle and subtle modulation of all controls is of most importance. I do it all the time when riding on surfaces that are questionable.

So, IF we are talking about riders with some reasonable amount of experience, I think covering the levers with two fingers most of the time is advisable.

One final thing: I have ridden just about all the modern Harleys. That is a whole different issue, because the weight distribution and design of those brakes is just different. You aren't going to slow down a 700 lb bike with a long wheel base and a single front disc with two fingers. Maybe it is that the MSF course is designed to deal mostly with Harley riders? I don't know.

So there you have it. I am in the minority. Won't have been the first time.

Jeff
P.S. I suppose that IF you have linked ABS brakes, none of the above matters, because you can just stomp and grab all you like and it won't matter.

[Wild Will]

I've always done so. It gives me an extra margin of safety if I come around a narrow, blind curve and have to stop, pronto. I use one finger, and I never use the rear brake except to 'settle' the rear in a turn, sometimes. This is street stuff we're talking about. Now, I'm no instructor, and I bow to the more knowlegeable gurus here, but I can operate the throttle they way I want to, blip shift down a gear or 2, and brake if I have to. It's second nature. If I had to unwrap my fingers from the twistgrip, cover the brake and stop fast, that translates into feet of precious roadway lost. Things may be different where you live, unless you dwell among epic ridgetops, but it works for me, and I've taught my family to cover the brake when they ride because it takes X number of feet to reach the brake lever; we're already there. Imagine a second gear corner, blind, 12 foot wide two way (admittedly scant) traffic, and you discover right in your path around said corner a three hundred pound chunk of rock that fell off the high side of the steep road, three turkey vultures eating a deer carcass (that probably had a death wish-they all do), a tourist taking a photograph, a coal black free range bull, or a Dodge half in my lane. I've encountered all these, plus a diesel slick (which I miraculously skated through, losing both tires, but riding it to a stop standing on the pegs). Didn't use the brake then, but got traction when I hit the dirt shoulder. Another rider went down, on a brand new ABS 1150 GS. Nothing except luck works on diesel spills, and some of the farm hands are just plain sloppy. I have never lost the front wheel while braking, don't want to, and will always cover the front brake with 1 finger; if your bike has good brakes, and most do these days, that's all I need. YMMV.

[Bones]

....what Will said.........


and also: I almost always blip the throttle while downshifting while applying front brake. Simultaneously performing all those manuevers smoothly really keeps the bike settled and it all goes smoothly once you get the hang of it.


Jeff

[Pacific]

I appreciate the good sense of that, Bones and Will. This is my second season riding (after much dirt experience as a teenager). I've put about 20,000 km on the clock of my R1550R in the last 14 months, but as I've become more comfortable with the bike (and more aggressive in the twisties -- and more safety-conscious everywhere), I've tended to cover the brake more often. Just wondered whether some was enough. My bike has ABS, which I'm neutral on. I am grateful for the views of more experienced riders.

Jay

[kocook]

I generally cover clutch and brake with two fingers (index and signaling finger) all the time. In the twisties, I may only use the index finger on the front brake.

Reason? I cover the levers to cut reaction time. Also, helps me keep a light grip on the bars. Relaxing my grip solves all sorts of handling and comfort problems.

Generally, I find most bikes shift better if you just relieve the pressure on the transmission a bit by partially disengaging and easing the gas while shifting. I don't need 4 fingers to do that. However, different bikes have different needs. Just try it to see what works best on yours.

The front brake on most bikes definitely does not need any more than the first two fingers to operate. You can easily get the front tire howling with just those two. Put any more on there and you risk losing feel and lock up with the adenalin flowing.

Best to find a place to practice regularly. Start slow and work up to your highest speed after you gain confidence. Go with buddy in case you fall. If you don't practice emergency stops regularly, you are very likely to botch it when it is for real. Whatever you train yourself to do in practice is what you will probably do in an emergency.

Kent

[bbneuser]

new here. well, new almost everywhere. found a great welcome from allan, dean, darth and the whole crew that showed up for the texas hill country ride couple of weeks ago. thanks again, all. have never participated in any 'organized' ride of any sort. living where i do, not too many other like minded riders in area. riders yes, different styles. all of which are okay, but i really want to direct my skills building to the type of riding we all did up country. lots of tight, blind, quick turns, many more open sweepers and some truly high speed stuff, if you can manage to stay away from the hall monitors who lurk out there on 55/337 and so on. just absolutely great roads.
all that said, was 'assigned' lead in an early ride, very moist/foggy/high dewpoint and then on toward the leakey gap and beyond. was pointed out to me later by kocook, that my brake lights kept coming on-didn't appear i was slowing, but for others, this had to be disconcerting at best, especially as i hadn't ridden with any of this gang and they really didn't know who i was or how i would handle myself. i've been sitting here for two weeks wondering about my 'covering' the brakes in general, but more specifically, how it affected the riders behind me, when we were all trying to stretch out our morning legs.
perhaps my brake indicators are set up with pretty high sensitivity, but i am more at issue with myself for a seeming lack of my commitment to make the proper approach and stick with it, than to back up on having to cover the brakes in really tight, blind and sometimes decreasing radius turns that i was pretty unfamiliar with. i'm kind of 50/50 here with the concept. would like to make a plan and stick to it, but some level of caution should be appropriate with all the variables there can be out there on rural roads ie. gravel, sealcote, etc. and on 337/335 and especially 336, these turns come at you pretty quickly and this was an aggressive, seasoned group and they move point a to b with some haste. all the fun's on the curves, right deano?
i'm very conscious now of my approach to corners, trying to set up better and just stick with it, but is something of a unlearning curve to overcome to get there. glad i ran into this discussion, as i've been wanting to seemingly confess my sins, but this has been real valuable commentary for my circumstance and style. never done a track day either, and looking forward to same. feel like if i can soak up that and some more riding with this bunch of miscreants, i can't help but getting older and smarter. thanks guys.

[kocook]

bbneuser,
Read Keith Code's Twist of the Wrist II. It is a classic. He addresses these issues very well. If you like a step by step approach, try Lee Parks' "Total Control". Also, Nick Ienatsch's "Sport Riding Techniques" is good--beautiful photos too. But read Code's book first. Ignore the hoky writing style.

Kent

[BobFV1]

This is an interesting discussion. I am curious as to whether or not there is any empirical data to support the contention that "covering the brake" decreases total braking distance, which has three components - perception, reaction, and braking distance.

Unlike many of the riders on the board, most of my high speed riding is done on frequent visits to the track as a track day participant or instructor. In those circumstances I ride a non-ABS bike and use very little brake - pretty much front brake only while setting up certain turns. The rest of the time I am not even thinking about braking. I don't cover the front brake at all unless I intend to use it, or think there is a possibility I might need to use it. In many street circumstances, there are a lot of times that fit in to this category, like in stop and go traffic, and approaching intersections. In mountain twisties, of course I would "cover" the front brake in a blind decreaser, but it would only be with 2 or 3 fingers, and it would not involve "gripping" at all, just resting my fingers up there, ready to squeeze if necessary. In normal curve-riding where I know the exit and what lies ahead, I generally don't cover the brake at all.

I will look for some empirical data on total braking distance and "covering" the front brake - interesting topic and I am sure there is some data.

[Bones]

Bob,
I only have a nano moment now....but I wanted to say this: take a few days and do the Freddie Spencer three day school. I absolutely guarantee it will transform your involvement in this sport. You are already and very experienced, committed and thoughtful rider. You do LONG distance touring and track days and you teach. You are clearly and intense guy. You will LOVE the very significant challenge placed before you that takes place at Freddie's school unlike all the other schools and it will force you to TOTALLY rethink everything you ever knew about corners, traction and lean angle. And you will come out the other side as a different kind of Jedi Warrior on the bike.

If I am wrong on this, I will owe you big time and I promise I will live up to it. I am that certain about this. Clear three of the most important days in your adult life and do it.

Jeff

[BobFV1]

Bob,
I only have a nano moment now....but I wanted to say this: take a few days and do the Freddie Spencer three day school. I absolutely guarantee it will transform your involvement in this sport. You are already and very experienced, committed and thoughtful rider. You do LONG distance touring and track days and you teach. You are clearly and intense guy. You will LOVE the very significant challenge placed before you that takes place at Freddie's school unlike all the other schools and it will force you to TOTALLY rethink everything you ever knew about corners, traction and lean angle. And you will come out the other side as a different kind of Jedi Warrior on the bike.

If I am wrong on this, I will owe you big time and I promise I will live up to it. I am that certain about this. Clear three of the most important days in your adult life and do it.

Jeff

Jeff -- thanks for the tip. I am already scheduled to do more Code training at Pocono in August, but I will look up Freddie and see if anything fits my eclectic schedule - thanks again for the tip!

[arkline]

In urban traffic situations, I only use the one finger....Ooooops. That's not what you guys were talking about.:082:

[Wild Will]

It eats up distance in feet on the street to move your digits from being wrapped around the throttle to reaching the brake lever. That distance, however so slight, may mean the difference between caressing a hidden obstacle or arriving at Haute Cuisine unscathed.
Elementary Pragmatism 101; the only class I ever got an 'A' in.

[DJ Down Under]

I also run with my levers pointing down more towards the ground.

Not straigt forward like most...this also helps speed up the time to get your fingers on the levers...really...well that's what I think anyway...:045:

DJ

[Bones]

Bob,
Pocono was my "home track" in terms of track days. I did literally over a thousand laps on the Pocono course you will run with the Code school, there.

I'd love to either convince you to swing up my way and I can show you some great back road riding in our area up here, or if schedules allow, I could swing down to Pocono just to meet you.

The Code school is good in its own way, but it completely antithetical to Freddie school when you get to the advanced level (which you obviously are).

Let me know.

Jeff

[geechie]

It's hard for me to 'cover' either lever, 'cause I've got such dinky little hands and stubby little fingers. I do feel that there are certain situations where it is the prudent thing to do, and so I try. But I'm not very comfortable with it.

Andy from Poland got me started with braking and blipping at the same time, and mastering that technique has improved my cornering immeasureably.

This is a good thing to be discussing.

George