How About an $80,000 K Bike

[GPM]

Complete with training wheels...

http://www.peraves.ch/supere.htm

[DarthRider]

For 80 large I would not have expected such an ugly bitch!

Dave

[jamming]

For 80 large it better have a bar, and provide sexual favors when I want.:)
Roger

[GPM]

Well yeah, but it does have ABS.

And, I hear its considered a pretty good value compared to one of those FJRs..

:064:

[DarthRider]

Harry, shame on you!
You are an evil man...:020:

Dave

[jamming]

:beer: :beer: :beer: :beer: :beer: :beer: :beer: :beer: :beer: :beer: :beer: :beer: :beer: :beer: :beer: :beer: :beer: :beer: :beer: :beer: :beer: :beer: :beer: :beer: :beer: :beer: :beer: :beer: :beer: :beer: :beer: :beer: :beer: :beer: :beer: :beer:
OK, everybody grab a beer, this could be good:037:
Roger

[BobFV1]

Well yeah, but it does have ABS.

:064:

Then it is for pussies.....

[GPM]

That's it!!! The next time you bring that white elephant to town, I will sneak into your garage and install ABS on that sucker.

Besides, everyone knows, headlight modulators are for pussies...

[DarthRider]

Hell, brakes are for pussies!
Don' need no steenking brakes...

Dave

[Deans BMW]

Just a louder horn..................

[fganger]

Did you notice it has a K100 engine? They must have been working on it for a while. I guess I'll wait for the K12 version.

Frank:037:

[Dallara]

Awful expensive for such an ugly fairing for a K-bike... But then again, it does look better than a R-1200-ST. :037:

Cheers!

Allan (Dallara - NACD)

[rivi]

http://i1.tinypic.com/xdh4jt.jpg

http://i2.tinypic.com/xdh502.jpg

[Optimus Prime]

Just a louder horn..................
Racing bikes don't need horns... :028:

[Dallara]

Jason said:


Racing bikes don't need horns...


Oh, I don't know about that...

Back in 1973 or '74, when I was racing for a Honda dealer called "Emmord's", I was wandering through the shop's parts department one day and found something interesting...

See, "Emmord's" was also a boat and Evinrude outboard dealer, which was very, very common in those days in South Texas - for a boat dealr to also handle motorcycles. Anyway, about 3/4ths of the accessories display in the parts department was boating gear, and I saw something there that was potentially a deadly weapon for moto-cross, so I bought it.

At the time I was riding Honda CR-250-M's - the original and first "Elsinore", with their gorgeous alloy fuel tank and spectacular engine and chassis - all over tracks in Texas along with the other members of the "Emmord's Honda Team", which was what it said on our matching team jerseys. We had matching jerseys, helmets, and numbers for each team members working backwards from 99. Jimmy Breshears was "Emmord's" first sponsored rider, I was the second so I was number 98, and the other members were numbered on down from there, like 97, 96, 95, etc. We all worked on our race bikes at one of two places - a large portion of the boat storage shed facility behind the shop, or out at the race team manager's (Jack Connolly, for those who remember me talking about him on the old site) shop. Most didn't like working out at the satellite shop because it was clean across town. I liked working out there because ti was so close to the best practice riding areas and the local MX track.

Point of all this is that I could fiddle and mount my new weapon in relative privacy, but I even made it more private by only working on this tweak at night. It took some fiddling and futzing, along with making a couple of extra pieces to make sure it mounted rigidly, but could be completely removed without a trace. Once I got it finished it was exquisite, and hardly noticeable even when mounted.

So into my toolbox go the mount and the weapon, all wrapped in a rag... And off to the next race we all go. Needless to say I didn't use it in practice, as I wanted maximum shock value, but just before heading to the gate for the first moto I mounted the whole rig on the left handlebar and headed for the line. Not one single person spotted it, which gave me an ear to ear grin as the entire 250 Expert class fired up their engines for the AMA-style, turn-the card-the-gate-drops start...

I got my usual lousy start... Gated starts were never my strongpoint, and even though I won plenty of races it was rarely because I had gotten a holeshot. Oh, no... I had to always pass a couple of folks, which was where the "Weapon" came in.

By now you have probably guessed what the "Weapon" was... One of those little, tiny, about four inches tall and about an inch and a half in diameter cartridge powered Air Horns! With the mount I had made I could easily press the button to blow it with my left thumb, which is exactly what I did when I came up behind third place to try and make a pass...

The term EFFECTIVE doesn't even begin to describe how well it worked. Me and this other rider went into a fast, 90 degree left that had an outside berm that was faster, but you could pass on the inside if you did it all just right... I didn't have to do anything just right. I just railed onto the outside berm behind my *victim* and hit the horn...

When I did he literally just BAILED over the berm and out of the way, slamming on the brakes and whipping his head around to see where that friggin' noise came from!!!

I could go on to describe the next passes that involved me getting into the lead and winning the moto, but your imagination can probably paint you a pretty good picture. Never had I had it so easy to pass, and each time it took the *victim* so long to recover that they weren't ever a factor for me again. Best part was none of them were really sure exactly what had happened...

When the moto was over I rode straigth back to the truck and quickly removed all the evidence (which only took about a minute or less, basically loosening two hose clamps 'til they separated). I had only used three blasts, so I had plenty of gas for the next moto, too. Those other riders came over to my pit area to scope the bike out, but not one said a word about a horn. Believe it or not I used the damn thing to the same effectiveness in the second moto and won the overall for the day. My downfall was getting cocky and blowing the damn thing all over the course and as I crossed the finish line jump. I just couldn't help myself, but then the cat was out of the bag, and everybody had figured it out.

It didnt' stop it from being effective for a few more races, as there was still the startle factor, but no one reacted quite the way they did that first day using it.

In the end our local tracks and clubs outlawed my air horn idea... especially after a few others began using them.

Still, I often wondered in other racing events over the years after that if I shouldn't have resurrected the air horn from time to time when memories about it had faded. It was damn effective, and helped win races...

So, yes Jason, race bikes do have horns sometimes, and have used them to great advantage.

Cheers!

Allan (Dallara - NAABSCD)

[AZBMWRIDER]

ABS Brakes: The Future...?

by bj max
MaxFlat6@aol.com
Issue #75--May 2005

I sold my motorcycle. Yep, sold a perfectly good '96 Honda Gold Wing with a preventative maintenance record that would have impressed an FAA inspector. I bought it new nine years ago next month and, other than a tire change every 18,000 miles or so, it's never seen the inside of a service department. So why would someone sell a perfectly good motorcycle that's paid for, I might add, and sign a long term contract on something that may or may not be as dependable? Am I just another spoiled American with too much money and too many toys and bored to death with my own existence? Hardly. First of all, I don't have too much money and my banker will back me up on that and you can ask my wife if I'm bored. Boring maybe, but never bored. Too many roads to ride, too many stories to tell, too many airplanes to fly, too many cats to kick and too much living to do to be bored. Then why sell a perfectly good motorcycle and go into debt? Two words. ABS brakes.

At some point in my life I developed the habit of using the front and rear brakes simultaneously, something I had not done in my early years of motorcycling mainly because we never ran a front brake. Wasn't cool you see, and a popular misconception at the time was that the front brake would throw you over the handlebars or cause you to loose control and kill yourself....How stupid we were. Well, my effort to develop this habit of stomping and squeezing at the same time took and now I do it automatically, every time I apply the brakes. Now I don't claim to be an expert on this subject, but so far as I can tell, it's not a bad thing.

But the habit of squeezing the front brake has a serious drawback that's landed me in trouble so many times my friends were beginning to think I was a Hollywood stunt man or something. The problem that has evolved from this "good" habit is my inability to keep my fingers off the front brake while stopping in gravel or when I'm on slick and gritty pavement. I don't know how many times I've grabbed that lever and went down in a heap. Dropping my bike all the time was beginning to wear on my nerves not to mention jeopardizing my 42 year marriage. My wife was getting pretty tired of being dumped unceremoniously into parking lots from California to Florida and her patience was wearing thin. Something had to be done and it was obvious from my point of view what that something was. In order to save my marriage, I needed a new motorcycle. One with ABS brakes. Yeah, that should work. I congratulated myself for coming up with the best excuse ever for buying a new bike.

I've never ridden a motorcycle with ABS, but I do have experience with cars, pickup trucks and eighteen wheelers so equipped and I have been impressed by all. For example, in December of '96 we bought a new Mercury Sable with anti lock brakes and as luck would have it, we had a rare snowstorm two weeks later that dumped a whopping four inches of snow on our fair city. The first thing I did was take the Merc' out on the street, got her up to thirty miles an hour and stomped the brakes. What happened next was nothing short of amazing. The wheels never locked up and the car stopped straight and true leaving me in complete control. I was so impressed I did it again. You have to understand, we're not used to snow covered streets down here in redneck land and most of us are terrified of icy roads. So. to be able to negotiate icy pavement with abandon was a life changing experience and my wife I became big fans of anti-lock brake technology.

Another good example of the control one has with ABS brakes is an incident I experienced one night in a brand new Volvo eighteen wheeler near the sleepy little town of Sanatobia, Mississippi. While rolling through the night at a steady 65 mph, I was awakened by the distinct pop of a tire letting go. But the Volvo's cab is so well insulated, I couldn't be sure. I immediately backed out of the throttle and cocked my ear, listening for the familiar slap of rubber against asphalt. But everything seemed fine. As I coasted along I gently touched the brake, just enough to gradually slow me down. Everything still seemed normal and I began to think that maybe it had been a tire on another rig across the median going the opposite direction. As I coasted through forty mph the handling was still normal but finally, at around thirty, I started to feel a slight tug on the steering wheel. I pulled over on the shoulder and braked to a complete stop, still in full control of the rig. I set the brakes and stepped down from the cab and was surprised that my left front steering tire was flat and half the tread missing. I wasn't surprised that I had a flat, but I couldn't believe it was a steering tire. Needless to say, I was impressed, and took note that the Volvo and the Great Dane trailer I was pulling were both ABS equipped. A blown front tire on a non ABS eighteen wheeler tried to killed me one night coming out of Nashville but this, well this was just amazing. The control I had during the whole episode was nothing short of magic. My affection for ABS was fast becoming a full blown love affair.

There are several brands out there offering ABS bikes...Honda, Ducati, Yamaha and the most prominent is probably BMW. But the Honda GL1800A Gold Wing is the one I chose. I've owned two Gold Wings and both were virtually trouble free. Yeah, I know. I've heard all the jokes. Like 'em or not though, they're virtually bulletproof. However, deciding on a certain motorcycle and finding one are two different things. It took me ten days but I finally located an ABS version in Corinth, Mississippi, a hundred miles to the east, and I made the deal over the phone. I put up two hundred bucks to get the dealer to hold it for me and went down yesterday to pick it up.

While standing in the parking lot waiting patiently for the owner to walk me through all the features of the new bike, (it's required by law) he told me that a Honda marketing expert gave a speech at the dealer's convention back in February on ABS brakes and declared that within ten years you wouldn't be able to buy a new motorcycle in the United States without ABS. He went on to say that the California Highway Patrol was gradually replacing its fleet of motorcycles with ABS versions and even Harley Davidson was now offering ABS to law enforcement agency's on its Road King and Electra Glide police bikes.

In the fifties and sixties I rode motorcycles with mechanical brakes and if you had told me then that some day all motorcycles would have hydraulic brakes I would have laughed at you. Where would you put the master cylinder and the proportioning valve? And the wheel cylinders alone are too big and cumbersome for a motorcycle. Why the chances of hydraulic brakes being adapted to motorcycles is about as likely as a man walking on the moon. That's what I would have argued then and I'm sure there are those who would make the same argument today concerning ABS brakes. But, ABS technology is the future good people and sooner or later, if you continue to ride and buy new bikes, you will own a motorcycle with ABS. Wait and see.

Think about it. :eusa_boohoo: :yahoo:

[Dallara]

Hmmmmmmmmm...

Let's take this a point at a time, shall we?

So Mike's idea of an ABS expert is:

1.) A guy who has owned two Gold Wings, and one of those since 1996...

2.) A guy who has such terribly poor braking skills he dumps his bikes all the time if the surface changes...

3.) A guy whose only experience with ABS is with cars, trucks, and eighteen wheelers...

4.) A guy who apparently is about as far from a high performance driver or rider as one could get...

5.) A guy who has never owned, nor ridden a bike with ABS until he bought this latest Wing...

Yep! That's the ticket! We should have old Gold Winger's deciding the future of how our motorcycles are equipped - from an engineering standpoint - right?

I don't know whether to laugh out loud or cry in pity for someone who offers up that article as his evidence we should all be using ABS, or that it is currently superior to non-ABS equipped motorcycles... Geez!

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You've really got to be kidding, right?

It's a joke... Really... You don't mean that to be serious, right?

You really don't intend for us to take bj max/MaxFlat6 (and at AOL, no less...) as serious evidence that ANYBODY should buy an ABS-equipped bike except for ol' Max "I Dump My Bike Every Time I See Gravel" Flat6, do you?

I mean, doesn't ol' Max know that ABS won't help him one iota on gravel, and that it will actually prevent him from stopping in certain instances on such a surface?

Even ol' Max says "I don't claim to be an expert on the subject..." and then says "as far as I can tell, (ABS is) not a bad thing." Yep, that's expert testimony for ya', all right...

But he's the expert ol' Mike is playing the fiddle and dancin' about and hanging his ABS hat on...

Hey, if it works for you, Mike... Go for it.

Cheers!

Allan (Dallara - NAABSCD)

[Deans BMW]

Unfortunately, dear ole Max represents the lowest common denominator in the Motorcycle buying public. The average buyer in the various dealerships hasn't a clue, look at the average Harley buyer or the average metric cruiser buyer. For example, ATGATT is a concept that is as foreign to them as me speaking French. DOT approved Do Rags anyone...............

[AZBMWRIDER]

http://http://www.nhtsa.dot.gov/people/injury/pedbimot/motorcycle/00-NHT-212-motorcycle/images/MSF_Logo2.gif




ISSUE STATEMENT

Although motorcycles have sufficient braking power and traction to enable them to stop in as short a distance as a typical car, panic-braking a motorcycle poses unique hazards and requires greater operator skill than stopping a car in panic situations or in a skid.

WHERE WE ARE

The vast majority of motorcycles use an independent system for the front and rear wheels, with a lever on the right handlebar controlling the front brake and foot pedal controlling the rear brake. A small number of motorcycles link the controls and an even smaller number have a handlebar lever to control the rear brake. We know of no current research that indicates which if any of these is more effective.

Braking seems to be one of the most difficult skills for a motorcyclist to master. It is also one of the most critical. It is difficult because most motorcycles have two separate brake-control systems, one for the front wheel and one for the rear wheel. As the front brake is applied, weight transfers to the front tire, which causes available traction to vary as weight shifts, requiring the rider to adjust pressure on each brake control in a maximum-performance stop. As found in the Hurt Report, in a situation the motorcyclist typically overbrakes the rear and underbrakes the front, even though weight transfer means the front brake must do the majority of the braking. Overbraking can either cause loss of steering control or total loss of control. If the rear wheel is locked, the rider typically loses directional control. If the front wheel locks, the rider is likely to crash due to loss of stability.

Rider training courses, available for the last two decades, have sought to develop improved motorcyclist braking skills. Greater emphasis has been focused on proper braking technique and the importance of the front brake. There seems to be a greater recognition of the importance of front brake use than there was 20 years ago when the Hurt Report was conducted. Failure to brake effectively and loss of control during panic-braking continue to play a role in motorcycle crashes.

Continued rider training and practice are key elements in assuring maximum rider performance in a panic situation. This allows riders to learn brake control during a maximum-braking stop, internalize the process of a hard stop so they react automatically in a panic situation, and deal with events such as rear-wheel lock-up. However, even panic-braking practice involves risk, because locking the front wheel can cause an immediate loss of control and a fall. This makes it difficult for rider training organizations to train riders to use the front brake to its full capability.

Motorcycle braking systems have steadily improved in terms of power, control, and reliability and continue to do so. Virtually all street motorcycles now have hydraulically actuated disc brakes, at least on the front wheel. Most motorcycles use this type of brake—which is self-adjusting for wear and more resistant to fade and wet conditions than drum-type brakes—on the rear wheel as well.


Many street motorcycles also have powerful dual disc brakes on the front wheel, which provide more stopping power where it is needed most. This is particularly true for sportbikes and touring motorcycles. Cruisers, despite weights that are normally heavier than other styles except touring motorcycles, often have just a single disc brake in front, although this seems to be changing.

Two technical developments have sought to simplify braking control and provide more effective braking. Linked braking slows both wheels with a single control. Antilock braking systems (ABS) allow the rider to apply maximum braking force without fear of wheel lock-up and the resulting loss of control, providing the bike is not leaned over. Under many pavement conditions, antilock brake systems allow the rider to stop a motorcycle more rapidly while maintaining steering control even during situations of extreme, panic braking.

Although incidental and first-hand experience indicates either of these systems can be effective in countering the problems faced by a motor-cyclist in a panic stop, we know of no research that shows how they perform in the field compared with similar bikes fitted with standard brake systems. The added costs (particularly for ABS) and reluctance to accept them by some experienced motorcyclists have limited the adoption of these potentially effective systems.


WHERE WE WANT TO BE

We want motorcyclists to possess the skills to use their brakes fully while maintaining control under all riding conditions, thus avoiding some crashes.

We would like developments in brake systems, which offer better, safer panic-stopping capability for motorcyclists, to continue and be more widely adapted to all classes of motorcycles.


HOW TO GET THERE

Assuring that motorcyclists get maximum braking performance requires training, research, and deployment of equipment that can provide maximum-performance braking while minimizing the danger of a braking-induced crash. To obtain the level of braking that is available even on current machines, both experienced and inexperienced motorcyclists need recurrent training.

[Deans BMW]

Although motorcycles have sufficient braking power and traction to enable them to stop in as short a distance as a typical car, panic-braking a motorcycle poses unique hazards and requires greater operator skill than stopping a car in panic situations or in a skid.



panic-braking a motorcycle poses unique hazards and requires greater operator skill than stopping a car in panic situations or in a skid.


The key phrase and therein lies the problem.

The vast majority of motorcycle buyers in the US are wholfully unskilled as in my post above. I would also submitt that the average motorcycle rider and buyer in the Cafe are in the skilled to extremely skilled catagory. Thus the animosity to ABS.

[AZBMWRIDER]

Quote:
Although motorcycles have sufficient braking power and traction to enable them to stop in as short a distance as a typical car, panic-braking a motorcycle poses unique hazards and requires greater operator skill than stopping a car in panic situations or in a skid.

Quote:
panic-braking a motorcycle poses unique hazards and requires greater operator skill than stopping a car in panic situations or in a skid.

Deans BMW wrote: The key phrase and therein lies the problem.
--------------------------------------------------------------

I Agree...:045:

[AZBMWRIDER]

This is a old artical but it has lot's of information on ABS.
---------------------------------------------------

No Fault Braking
A Real-World Comparison of ABS Systems
By Michael Kneebone
September 1992

On a good day, with wide handle-bars, smooth pavement and some luck, it is possible to lock a wheel on your motorcycle during a panic stop and stay up. Unfortunately, you don't usually get the chance to pick the time and place for a panic stop. More likely, someone else will pick it for you. It's during those unplanned stops that having an ABS system on board can pay for itself.

But before we discuss ABS, it's important to understand why a locked wheel can cause a crash. The best way to do that is by imagining our way through a front-wheel-locked stop.

Why We Need It
Our crash course in braking begins at about 40 mph when you apply a handful of front brake. Unexpectedly, you ride over a small patch of gravel and the front wheel loses traction. With the wheel skidding, you've lost control, yet the motorcycle is still continuing straight. All is well-so far.

Unfortunately, a sliding tire is free to go any direction it wants. But with a firm grip on the bars and good balance, you've managed to stay upright to this point. The correct procedure from here is to release the brakes enough to get the wheels spinning again, and then re-apply them.

That's a lot easier said than done as you watch Grandma Jones' Buick hang a left in front of you. With your adrenaline pumping, you have a pretty healthy grip on the brakes, and easing off isn't part of your brain's game plan. Now there's a whole list of things that can go wrong.

Your biggest worry is the back half of the motorcycle-it's probably trying to pass the front. With the rear wheel partially unweighted and the steering neck turned into a huge hinge, it doesn't take a lot of effort for the rear to pivot and swing to the side. As if that's not enough to deal with, with the front wheel stopped you've lost the stabilizing gyroscopic force that smoothes out and slows steering inputs. With spinning wheels you can hit a six-inch pothole and the motorcycle will just about steer its own way out. With a locked wheel, any disturbance, no matter how small, can be disastrous.

Perhaps your undoing will be by way of some antifreeze or a small rock, or simply a tiny imperfection in the pavement. Whatever the cause, the wheel turns sideways (for discussion, let's assume the wheel turns to the left). If you're really quick, this is your last chance to release the brakes and regain control of the motorcycle. But more than likely you're past the point of no return. Once the tire changes direction, so does the contact patch. With a side thrust acting against the tire, the wheel suddenly turns full-lock against the steering stop violent enough in many cases to damage the metal stops.

As the right handgrip is ripped from your hand, the left grip is pushing your arm towards you. You react on instinct, reaching out for the missing handlebar, unknowingly shifting your weight outside and to the right. Now you're not only sliding, you're leaning to the right with the front wheel turned to the left. Congratulations. You just got tossed off your motorcycle.

From start to finish, our entire crash (not including sliding down the road) took about three seconds. Unfortunately, even in a controlled environment the idea of stopping by easing off the brakes is just not natural. The only way to really learn the technique is to practice (a risk in itself) until it becomes an automatic reaction. Then practice it again, and again.

Where ABS Comes In
Of course, not everyone will want to explore the potentially hazardous area of expert braking, and that's where an anti-lock braking system takes over. With its sophisticated computers and complex hydraulic systems, ABS will allow even the most timid to venture into the nether regions of full-compression braking without having to risk life, limb and motorcycle in the process.

For now, ABS is available on a limited number of motorcycles; five BMWs, the Honda ST 1100 and the Yamaha FJl200. Each of these manufacturers use computer-managed hydraulic systems for their ABS packages. (For complete technical reviews of the ABS systems and their operation, refer to the August 1991 and January 1992 issues of RR.)

Like our rider, if a wheel starts sliding, ABS's job is to ease off the brakes and then re-apply them. However, ABS goes one step further. Instead of waiting for a wheel to slide before taking action, modern ABS systems can actually predict wheel lock-up before it happens and begin to ease off the brakes.

This predictive quality is thanks to a relatively new concept in computer programming called "fuzzy logic." Although this is, at best, a crude description of a very complex computer system, ABS "thinks" along these lines: "Something is up! Only 9 milliseconds ago my front wheel was traveling 59.4mph and the rear 59.6. Now the front is only turning 26.3 and the rear 31.3 mph. I know it takes at least 20 milliseconds (on a perfect braking surface with sticky tires) to slow either wheel by a single mph. I'd better look into this a bit more deeply." Long before the rider realizes anything is wrong, the computer has figured that we are losing traction at a rate faster than that conducive to a controlled stop even under the best conditions.

From here, it's a simple matter of rechecking the data from the wheel sensors, running some internal diagnostics to make sure the computer and wheel sensors are okay, asking the backup computer to confirm our diagnosis, then issuing the command to the hydraulic systems to ease off the brakes. The entire process takes less than one second.

Once the wheels spin back up to speed, the computer re-applies the brakes and the process starts over again.

BMW's ABS checks wheel speed approximately 330 times per second and can modulate braking force seven times per second (the mechanics of fluid management are the limiting factor - not the computer). The Japanese, with a three-year-newer design and faster hydraulic Systems, have upped the modulation rate to 10 times per second. That's three times faster than even the best rider can ever hope for.

Unfortunately, ABS cannot scan the pavement ahead and make minor adjustments to braking pressure to optimize stopping power. Today's systems leave that job to the rider. The ability to look ahead and decide to reduce braking pressure, or to increase it, explains why a skilled rider can often out-stop someone who just squeezes the brakes as hard as possible and lets ABS take over. While ABS will save your butt, it is as yet not totally efficient (in terms of stopping distances) in modulating the brake pressure, no matter how fast the computer and hydraulics work.

The current crop of ABS bikes work best if you're willing to work with them to find the fine line between ultimate stopping power and a locked wheel. From a technical standpoint, with a relatively simple software modification and a few plumbing changes, ABS could take over all braking decisions, controlling both the front and rear brakes from either the hand or foot levers. Squeeze either lever for an easy, medium, hard or panic stop and the computer could manage the rest. But the controversy over integrated braking would pale in comparison to this level of automation. Besides, the legal complications involved with a completely automatic system will probably keep that idea hidden on a secret prototype forever.

The Tests
In June of 1991 RR contacted 10 ABS- equipped BMW owners and asked them each to carry a notebook. Each rider had a simple but time-consuming job. Each time their ABS activated, they recorded the following: Road surface, weather conditions, type of braking (i.e., easy, panic, etc.) and, in their opinion, whether the ABS helped or interfered with bringing their motorcycle to a safe stop. (See Figure 1)

Figure 1. BMW Owners Anti-Lock Braking Report
Based on 9 (of 10 that started) riders over 8 months, totaling 26,709 miles

Fast stops due to close calls
ABS not needed ABS assisted Total
Call pulled in front 3 4 7
Deer 0 2 2
Other 1 2 3

ABS Activation: Non-Panic Stops
Wet pavement (rain) 22
Oil or Grease 14
Gravel or dirt 11
Changing light 9
Other causes 17

Other panic stops (defined as those stops when riders let ABS take complete control

Wet 16
Dry 3

Has ABS saved you from an accident? Eight out of nine said "yes"


In April of 1992, with our RR test group data in hand, we turned our attention to a comparative test of non-ABS vs. ABS-equipped motorcycles. Representing ABS was a 1992 BMW K100RS-ABS and a 1992 Yamaha FJ 1200-ABS. Unfortunately, the ABS-equipped Honda ST1100 came a bit late to the party and had to be tested separately in June.

While we could have disabled the anti-lock braking systems (it's a simple matter of throwing the computers into a fault mode or removing a fuse) and run those same bikes for the non-ABS test, we chose instead to line up one each of those same models without ABS.

Why? To see how the additional ABS plumbing affected brake feel at the lever, and to compare just how a motorcycle with an ABS failure stacked up against the standard model.

Representing the non-ABS group was a 1991 BMW K100RS, a 1991 Honda ST1100 and a 1991 Yamaha FJ1200. However, more important than the motorcycles were the testers themselves. While a professional racer would probably generate valuable input in terms of stopping power, we wanted a broad range of experience among our riders. Anything less wouldn't give us the real-world comparison we were looking for.

Our testers consisted of a closed-circuit endurance racer, a long-distance endurance rider, a RR staffer, a touring rider with 70,000 miles of experience, a motorcycle mechanic with a 37,000 mile riding history, and a relative novice with less than one year and 4200 miles of riding under his belt. We gave our riders the following labels: Racer, Mileman, RRider, Tourer, Mech and Newguy.

Although the bikes were heavily insured, money can't repair testers' bodies. We toyed with the idea of getting an outrigger outfit to protect riders from a high-side, but decided to pass. Besides, the security of the outriggers might have gotten our test group to brake harder than they would on the street, and that again ran counter to the idea of a real-world test.

Additionally, since it was impossible to safely "scare" our riders to emulate a true "panic braking" experience, we simply instructed each rider to stop as hard as he felt his skills would allow without taking unnecessary chances. A stern lecture before each set of braking runs had to substitute for outriggers.

For the test area, we found an industrial park that was under construction in a Chicago suburb. Besides being deserted on the weekends, it provided us with most of the surfaces our pilot group of BMW riders had reported ABS kicking-in on:

Painted road surfaces (like the warning strip at stop signs)
metal sewer covers
sand
gravel
oil-stained pavement
short dirt road
water-lots of water.
Despite our quest for safety, there was still some danger involved. While we had an open area nearly a mile long, the wide street had curbs on both sides-some thing we made a point of constantly reminding the riders of.

Since four of our six testers had never ridden an ABS-equipped motorcycle, we planned a day of practice just to get everyone up to speed. Additionally, while the BMW, Honda and Yamaha are similar in design, they each have a unique ABS "feel" that takes some getting used to. Your first hard stop on an ABS bike can be quite an eye-opener. Like our imaginary non-ABS crash, the best way to describe the feel of ABS is to imagine riding each of the three brands through a typical quick stop with an obstacle thrown in. In this case, we'll be hard on the brakes crossing a metal sewer cover at 50 mph.

With the front suspension compressed and the nose down from braking pressure, the BMW's front tire contacts the slick metal cover and ABS kicks in, releasing the brakes. The motorcycle reacts about the same way it would if you manually eased off the brakes. The suspension unloads, bringing the nose of the BMW up. Meanwhile, you get the "feeling" that you are accelerating (really, you're just not slowing down for a split-second). In an instant. the Beemer is back on the brakes, compressing the suspension again and throwing you forward against the bars. Until it finds traction. the BMW unit will continue to perform this ritual seven times per second.

After a ride on the BMW, you would expect the Honda's faster system (around ten times per second) to provide even more up-and-down bouncing. but the exact opposite is true. With the system working faster, the suspension and your body have less time to feel and react to the on-again-off-again dance. Like the BMW, the seat-of-your pants lets you know ABS is working. In addition, the Honda goes one step further so that when ABS engages, the hydraulic system causes the lever to pulsate (or brake pedal if the rear wheel's ABS is engaged).

Like the Honda, the Yamaha cycles ten times per second and provides feedback through both levers. At speed, the Yamaha system was the slickest of the three. On both the BMW and Honda, riders clearly felt the stopping-freewheeling-stopping action of ABS. On the Yamaha, ABS-aided braking from high speed felt closest to a dry pavement, non-ABS stop. The Yamaha was clearly the favorite among our test group.

There is one catch to relying on ABS to manage braking. At some point, the computers have to let the wheels "stop," and return braking control to the rider. That's about 3 mph on this crop of motorcycles. While this is walking speed, if you're not paying attention on a slick surface (like oil-covered concrete at gas pumps), the wheels will lock and the bike will slide out from underneath you. These same conditions are common near stop signs (slick paint strips or oil). ABS-equipped or not, you still have to use your head.

The Real Truth
Although we set out to perform a three-way ABS shoot-out, in less than ten braking runs it became obvious that comparing the stopping distances of the Yamaha and the BMW (and later the Honda) was a waste of time. Under equal conditions, the three ABS bikes will virtually always stop within a few feet of each other. Generally speaking, in a "squeeze the brakes as hard as possible and let ABS take over" kind of stop, the Yamaha and the Honda, with their faster cycling times, will out-stop the BMW by several feet. But that was also true of the non-ABS models (Refer to Figure 2).

Figure 2. Comparative Braking Distances by Motorcycle
(Average of Five Passes on Dry Pavement)
Expert rider, all distances from 60 mph

BMW (non-ABS model) 153 ft
Full ABS Control 162 ft
ABS disabled
155 ft

Honda (non-ABS model) 149 ft
Full ABS Control 156 ft
ABS disabled
150 ft

Yamaha (non-ABS model) 148 ft
Full ABS Control 152 ft
ABS disabled 148 ft




It was clear from our first set of runs that an ABS-equipped motorcycle with a "failure" would stop as quickly as the non-ABS models (the difference in numbers was insignificant). Although ABS bikes have several more feet of plumbing, which could theoretically make for mushy or less reactive brakes, except for our Racer (who insisted all the bikes needed braided steel brake lines), our testers felt the ABS bikes equaled the feel of the stock machines.

On the advice of our testers, we also decided to make a last-minute change to our testing procedures. On ABS-aided stops, our original plan had each rider stomping on the brakes as hard as possible, letting ABS take over complete control from start to finish. While that information proved useful, we were more interested in finding out how ABS would react when encountering a poor braking surface on a typical street ride. A ride that did not include trying to set braking records with each stop. With that goal in mind, like our non-ABS tests, riders were instructed to stop as quickly as they felt they could, leaving ABS to manage the poor traction obstacles.

For our comparisons we added the category "Full ABS Control" - and it means just that. At the beginning braking marker, riders jumped on the brakes as hard as possible, relinquishing control to the computers. The "/ABS" indicates those passes where riders stopped as hard as they felt comfortable (the equivalent of a non-emergency, but forceful stop), with ABS only kicking in over the bad stuff. While we measured stopping performance over sand, dirt, loose gravel, oil and water, it was our over-the-sewer-cover test that seemed most representative of the comparative stopping power of ABS when encountering a less-than-perfect surface. (Refer to Figure 3).

Figure 3. Dry Pavement Braking over Sewer Cover *
(All measurements recorded with Yamaha FJ1200) **

Racer non-ABS 158 ft
w/ ABS 163 ft
Full ABS Control 166 ft

Mileman non-ABS 181 ft
w/ ABS 172 ft
Full ABS Control 167 ft

Road Rider non-ABS 160 ft
w/ ABS 165 ft
Full ABS Control 162 ft

Tourer non-ABS 186 ft
w/ ABS 167 ft
Full ABS Control 166 ft

Mechanic non-ABS 199 ft
w/ ABS 171 ft
Full ABS Control 169 ft

Newguy non-ABS 180ft
w/ ABS 168 ft
Full ABS Control 166 ft

NOTE: The surface used for this test varied slightly from that used in Figure #2 to compare ultimate stopping distances. Stopping distances between Figure #2 and Figure #3 are not comparative.

* All braking distances expressed in feet from 60 mph
** Both the ABS BMW and ABS Honda ST ran using this same test and achieved similar results.


Our non-ABS stopping distances varied widely from rider to rider. With the exception of Racer and RRider, as riders approached the slick metal sewer cover they released the brakes approximately 6-7 feet before reaching the cover and did not get back on them for several feet after they were back on the pavement.

That seems easy enough to correct, but as riders pointed out, at 50mph (that's 73 feet per second, or the approximate speed they crossed the cover), it appeared to them that they were braking about the time they reached the cover. They were incorrect in their assumptions.

Racer and RRider took a different approach to this problem. Knowing that the pavement was clear and sticky just past the metal cover, they skidded over it before easing off the brakes to get the wheels rolling again. Tricky, impressive and short-but hardly safe. We were also surprised to see our novice (Newguy) out-gunning more experienced riders in the dry pavement test. It turns out our novice commutes in the confines of Chicago's traffic-clogged streets where, as he put it, "You know how to brake, or you die." Meanwhile, our suburban road riders had obviously let their braking skills slide good reason for a refresher course in braking.

The data in Figure 3 reflects what we were watching out on the range. The ABS machines were consistent, with rider after rider stopping near the same marker. As the ABS motorcycles crossed onto the sewer cover, each machine released the brakes and got back on them immediately after the rider was back on pavement.

The most stunning performance of all was Mech's. His best non-ABS run was 197 feet (199 average of three runs). But with the confidence and help of ABS, he managed to finish only 11 feet behind Racer's 158 foot stop! With no crashes or close calls and everyone worn out, we adjourned for a week of rest.

Doin It In The Water
Our next set of tests involved water. The acceleration area (approximately 1400 feet long) was dry. As riders entered the 400 foot-long speed adjustment area (an area reserved to get the speed to an even 60 mph) they encountered water provided courtesy of an industrial hose. About 125 feet farther down the range a second hose kept the last half of our braking area, including the manhole cover, completely soaked. In all, approximately 380 feet of pavement (350 of which we could use for measurements) was thoroughly soaked.

No one in our test group actively practices wet-weather, maximum braking, which is about as average as you can get. Like the other non-ABS tests, each rider was instructed to brake as hard as they felt comfortable and to avoid crashing at all cost. (Refer to Figure 4)

Figure 4. Wet Pavement Braking over Sewer Cover *
(All measurements recorded with Yamaha FJ1200) **

Racer non-ABS 298 ft
w/ ABS 211 ft
Full ABS Control 193 ft

Mileman non-ABS 326 ft
w/ ABS 240 ft
Full ABS Control 201 ft

Road Rider non-ABS 278 ft
w/ ABS 202 ft
Full ABS Control 197 ft

Tourer non-ABS 350+ ft
w/ ABS 236 ft
Full ABS Control 210 ft

Mechanic non-ABS 350+ ft
w/ ABS 252 ft
Full ABS Control 209 ft

Newguy non-ABS 350+ ft
w/ ABS 215 ft
Full ABS Control 210 ft

*All braking distances expressed in feet from 60 mph
** Both the ABS BMW and ABS Honda ST were run using this same test and achieved similar results.


The results from our non-ABS stops were shocking. Three riders rode through all 350 feet of water-soaked pavement before stopping on a dry portion of road at the other end. Even Racer and RRider, the daredevils who skidded over the sewer cover during the dry pavement tests, got off the brakes long before crossing the wet sewer cover.

The improvements in stopping distances when riders counted on ABS were almost unbelievable group averaged 120-foot shorter stops! Not one of our riders on a non-ABS motorcycle could outstop an ABS machine. None were even close! Riders that had never been on an ABS motorcycle were amazed at the amount of traction available for braking before the ABS needed to take over.

With that information in hand, we ran a second non-ABS test but found that without the ABS safety, net, stopping distances were, on average, only 11 feet shorter than the first set of non-ABS tests. Every tester agreed that with knowing the ABS was there to catch them, pushing the braking envelope to the outer edge was not a problem for them.

In A Turn
Unfortunately, anti-lock brakes are not very effective while cornering. Ask an engineer and he'll get this far-away, glassy look and start talking about tire slip ratios, lean angles and traction coefficients. Roughly translated, it means this: The farther you lean over, the less traction is available for braking (or acceleration). Get on the brakes hard in a corner and long before either wheel lock, you'll find yourself sliding.

When a tire loses its grip, the slide is toward the outside of the turn. Getting off the brakes (or the throttle) may not be enough to regain directional control (the motorcycle is trying to go sideways, not forward, you'll need to help the process along by steering with the bars. It's a pretty intense maneuver.

So, if ABS can prevent wheel lock-ups, what's the problem in turns? Unfortunately, today's generation of ABS, though quite complex, does not account for lean angles. The same computer logic for straight-line braking (i.e., calibrated to allow near tire-smoking stops) does not apply when tilted over. Someday faster computers with more capacity to handle increasingly complex ABS programs, combined with faster hydraulics with the ability to regulate (not just modulate) brake line pressures, may be able to solve the problem.

Still, the ultimate answer, as one source hinted, may be the addition of lean-angle sensors and computers that completely take over the full-tilt braking chores. A solution that will take years of R & D to sort through, and even then will only happen if riders are willing to accept an increasing level of automation.

ABS Operation Over Other Hazards
Although we tested ABS on a variety of surfaces, braking problems could be broken down into two basic groups: Limited distance hazards (such as metal gratings, tar strips, a patch of sand, gravel, or dirt), and long-distance hazards (wet pavement and dirt roads).

Oil and grease created a unique problem. During one of our tests (run at 30 mph due to the location), while crossing a 13-inch patch of oil mixed with some grease and dirt, the tires picked up enough gunk to be a problem as the same spot came around on the next rotation, six feet down the road. After our Racer nearly lost it on a non-ABS Yamaha, we limited the test to ABS only. ABS didn't bat an eye at this challenge. It simply went through the gunk and cycled two to five times until the garbage scrubbed off the tires.

We also incorporated another test not on our original list. One of our BMW riders reported missing a stop sign on a rainy night. Not entirely unusual, except that the road ended (Illinois farm roads tend to end in T's quite often-a real problem if you're not alert) and he found himself on a farmer's lawn going 40 to 50 mph. To verify his claim of a "a very long, but controlled stop," we ran the ABS Yamaha and ABS BMW over a newly sodded, water-soaked lawn. While a series of passes would have been nice, no one was willing to let us destroy their lawn. We were limited to three test passes.

Next to ice, wet grass is about as slippery as it gets. Our reader was correct. Both the BMW and Yamaha models with ABS came to a nice, controlled stop in a reasonable distance. And yes, ABS does work on ice, too. Given that we didn't get our hands on the Yamaha until the end of March and the Honda until June, a comparison was not possible (besides, no one was really anxious to try it anyway). However, we did book some winter miles on a BMW K100LT-ABS. Winter riding also brought out another problem. In temperatures lower than -5 degrees F, the drag from the wheel bearing grease and the brake pads rubbing against the discs keeps the wheels from turning after ABS releases the brakes (on ice). That's not an engineering problem related to ABS, but rather a cold weather problem you should be aware of.

On dirt roads, ABS wasn't even flexing its muscles. Like the wet pavement tests, riders were amazed at how much traction was actually available. Gravel was the same story. Without the fear of a slide-out, you can actually feel the tires gripping against the tiny, loose rocks as they move around under the wheels. Now that is impressive!

In Conclusion
If we are to try to pick a winner of this "contest," based on both the stopping data and the testers' comments, it would have to be the Yamaha FJ1200 ABS. Though all the ABS systems worked extremely well, it was unanimously felt that the Yamaha system worked the smoothest and was the easiest to handle. The lever and pedal "feedback" were the least harsh and obtrusive on the FJ, and therefore probably less likely to disturb or frighten the rider into over-reacting during a high-stress, panic stop situation.

In the end, everyone could hardly believe just how good ABS really is. It's certainly not a sales gimmick. This is clearly the biggest advance in braking safety since the advent of the disc brake. Our group of testers had just one complaint: Why is ABS not available on more motorcycles?

At least part of the answer to that question lies in our own resistance to change and, in particular, to bikers' reluctance to abdicate any amount of control of their mounts to "technology." We're a fairly independent lot, and take a certain amount of pride in the fact that we regularly rely on our own abilities and talents to get ourselves out of trouble.

Still another part of the answer comes with the rather large cost of ABS. High-tech braking has a price, and it's one that is high enough to make most of us stop and think twice about purchasing it. BMW's system adds $1000 and 20 pounds to the equivalent non-ABS models. Honda's system weighs 11 pounds and raises the ST's price tag by $1900 (though to be fair, that also includes the Traction Control System, which we will test in a future issue). The Yamaha is the light-weight king at 9 pounds, adding $1200 to the FJ's retail price.

I guess in the end the only real question is not whether or not you can afford ABS, but can you afford to ride without it?

[Dallara]

Ya' know... I just love it on this board !!!

First, ya' get a guy who is carrying a big torch for ABS brake systems, but only because he likes the entire idea of ABS. Most of the time these Mega-ABS fans have never really bothered to learn proper braking techniques in the first place, and certainly don't regularly practice threshold braking or panic stops (and if you do practice both regularly they become skill sets all their own that you can pull out of the hat like second nature, just like shifting gears becomes automatic...), nor do they regularly practice trail braking to the apex of a corner... Or practice heavy braking in the wet... Or practice braking on dirt and gravel surfaces, etc., etc., etc.

No, they simply decide to swallow whole all the marketing hype and "it works on cars so it must work on bikes..." mentality, completely ignoring the fact that the vehicular dynamics of cars and bikes, particularly under braking, are so different as to be comparing apples to Mars rocks. Basically, they're just too lazy.

Then they sometimes trot out ABS *testimonials*, usually for some skilless bozo like Mr. MaxFlat6 in this thread... A guy who can barely stay upright on a bike, has never owned or ridden an ABS bike, and obviously really hasn't ridden much at all, much less learned how a bike behaves at the limts of its envelope... Yet he is carried into the discussion as though he is some sort of credible *expert* simply because he posted something somewhere once...

Then we get a "Issue Statement"...

We don't know who wrote it or where it came from, but it is mostly a rambling diatribe that, in the end, says absolutely nothing. Honestly, the most important and relevant part of the entire pointless missive is this:



Although incidental and first-hand experience indicates either of these systems can be effective in countering the problems faced by a motor-cyclist in a panic stop, we know of no research that shows how they perform in the field compared with similar bikes fitted with standard brake systems. The added costs (particularly for ABS) and reluctance to accept them by some experienced motorcyclists have limited the adoption of these potentially effective systems.


Now look at those statements once again, carefully... We will be coming back to them in moment.

Then, almost as always, the Mega-ABS fans drag out Michael Kneebone's ancient article that they try to use to support ABS somehow... Doesn't matter that it is over 14 years old, or that during that time non-ABS braking systems have shown more technological design changes and improvements than ABS systems have, or that tires have come a long, long way since then, or that chassis and suspension systems have progressed greatly, too. Nope, none of that makes one nano-whit of difference... It's all about ABS.

Problem is, that very article proves again and again, in several places, that a good, skilled, practiced rider WITHOUT ABS outstops ABS systems, and often as much as by 9 Feet! That's half a car length!

But if you question them about this they run, run, run over to the wet weather part and then point their fingers at the new and inexperienced riders, saying "See! ABS worked for them!"

Well, two things here...

First off, I don't want to be a new, or inexperienced, or unskilled rider! I want to learn better skills, how to apply them, and then practice them so I become a better and better rider every day. It was never my aspiration to simply stop trying to be a better rider all at once, then accept mediocrity as my skill level, and turn contol of the brakes over to a computer... Maybe that is acceptable to some riders, but not to me. I've been riding over 35 years, but I still try to learn something new and different about the way my bike accelerates, handles, and stops every single time I am on it.

Second, about the riding in the wet... I don't know about you, but I do not seek out wet weather riding. Oh, I didn't mind it when it rained when I was racing, because it was wet for everybody, and I knew that this gave me an advantage. Why? Because if it was raining I was out practicing in it as much as I could, while other guys huddled in their cars and trucks because it was raining.

But, when it comes to street riding I try to get off the pavement when the rain starts. It is not just that braking can become more of crapshoot, but cornering can, too, given all the things water tends to lift out of asphalt. And let's not forget standing water and hydroplaning... Much more sphincter tightening on a motorcycle than in a car, to be sure. Certainly a motorcycle may get caught in the rain, and have to ride in it even for some distance... But, if that happens on the street, I don't know about you but I slow down CONSIDERABLY! This is where the pro-ABS just doesn't hold water (no pun intended... well, maybe just a little bit... :037: ) like the ABS fans want it to...

Very few riders ride in the wet, and if they do it is usually not the panic stop situation that gets them on the ground... It's the cornering part, and ABS is absolutely of no help there. In fact, in certain situations it can be deadly, because it may not allow a rider to scrub off as much speed as he'd like heading into a corner...

But really... Where the pro-ABS crowds arguments all collapse... Where they come apart like a dollar watch...

Is that there are no studies, no facts or figures, no statistical proofs, no finite long-term observations... That show ABS-equipped bikes perform any better, in any situation, with any skill level rider, on any surface, in any weather than do non-ABS equipped bikes.

Nothing, nada, zip, zero to show that anyone, anywhere, on any bike is less likely to get into an accident if he is riding a bike equipped with ABS. It is almost like religion... Those pro-ABS guys believe in ABS like they believe in God. They can't prove, in any way, that it is any better, or even exists as something to increase their safety while riding, but they still *BELIEVE*, HALLELUJAH! PRAISE ABS!

Remember that statement up above? The one from that presumptive flatulence oddly tagged as an "Issue Statement" that went like this:



Although incidental and first-hand experience indicates either of these systems can be effective in countering the problems faced by a motor-cyclist in a panic stop, we know of no research that shows how they perform in the field compared with similar bikes fitted with standard brake systems. The added costs (particularly for ABS) and reluctance to accept them by some experienced motorcyclists have limited the adoption of these potentially effective systems.


Isn't that exactly what that excerpt says - that there is no proof that ABS-equipped bikes outperform non-ABS bikes?

Even that goofy, and totally too small a sample to be relevant, BMW Owners survey cast large amounts of doubt on what the pro-ABS crowd wants to believe and preach...

There were 492 hard, fast stops total that the owners did not feel ABS actuate in any way.

Now there were only 73 stops where the riders even felt the ABS actuate, but nothing to prove in any way that the riders would not have stopped just as well, as quick, or in as short a distance without an ABS system.

Then there is the goofiest category of them all in the dubious survey - "Other panic stops (defined as those stops where the riders let ABS take complete control"... Now, exactly how did they define that??? :104: Still, the *riders* in the *survey* said that 19 times they let the ABS system take "complete control"... I wonder, did they let the ABS system control the steering, etc., too? :dance:

And then the *survey* asks "Has ABS saved you from an accident?" and 8 of 10 said "Yes"... Well, quite honestly, what would you expect someone who purchased a motorcycle equipped with ABS to say???

Regardless, the best this flawed, statistically too small, dubiously controlled *survey* could say was that 3% of the time some BMW riders, whom we nothing of their skill levels or riding experience, THOUGHT ABS might have saved their bacon... (19 divided by 565 = 3%)

Now I can show you millions of riders, over numerous years, of all sorts of varying degrees of skill level and experience, on all sorts of different sizes and styles of motorcycles... Who have not had an accident or crashed their bikes despite those bikes NOT having ABS... Yet the pro-ABS crowd can't show me a single long-term motorcycle study that in any way proves ABS improves your safety, or will even stop you more effectively, out in the field - i.e. the real world we live in.

Not one.

Worst part is that the pro-ABS crowd completely ignore three fundamental dangers of ABS-equipped bikes...

1.) ABS makes it impossible for a rider to learn threshold braking, period, so his skill set education ceases.

2.) Overconfidence in having ABS can lead a rider into very dangerous situations because the rider believes the ABS will stop him even if his skills don't support the situation. Further, if the rider has never bothered to test what it feels like when the ABS actuates, should he ever need to panic stop the sudden firming of the brake lever and pulsation may surprise and startle him to the point he actually releases the brakes. extending his stopping distance right into what he was trying to avoid. We won't even go into the problems of ABS on gravel, dirt, etc. whihc is another area all too often ignored in these discussions.

3.) ABS systems are expensive and complex - and especially expensive to maintain or replace if they have a problem. However, if certain ABS systems fail the rider can suddenly be left with drastically reduced braking capability, perhaps exactly when he needs it most.

You Mega-ABS fans can continue to trot out the same old tripe, but like it or not you have absolutely no evidence - nothing - to prove that having an ABS-equipped motorcycle makes your riding safer in any way, shape, or form, period.

Cheers!

Allan (Dallara - NAABSCD)

[GPM]

Allan,

I was reading along, agreeing with everything you said. Then I spotted the word 'irregardless'. Sorry, that totally negates your entire argument.

:064:

[Dallara]

Where, Harry???

:eusa_whistle: :icon_smile: :eusa_dance: :icon_wink: :icon_wink: :icon_wink: :icon_lol: :icon_lol: :icon_lol: :icon_wink: :icon_wink: :icon_wink: :eusa_dance: :icon_smile: :eusa_whistle:

Cheers!

Allan (Dallara - NAABSCD)

[GPM]

Damn, forgot about that edit button.

:eusa_clap:

[Dallara]

Ya' know, it's funny, Harry...

I KNOW "irregardless" is really NOT a word, and certainly have been corrected plenty enough over the years when I've used it, but it just pops out... I grew up with that word. My Mom used it all the time, and still does. It wasn't until I had been in school a pretty good while that somebody zapped me for using it.

I try not to, but when I least expect it, there it is.

Oddly enough, though, there seems ot be enough idiots like me that do use it that it is actually in some web dictionaries now...

http://wordnet.princeton.edu/perl/webwn?s=irregardless

http://www.iolani.honolulu.hi.us/Keables/KeablesGuide/PartThree/Letters/I.htm
(scroll down the page a bit... I love what it says - "an erroneous redundancy for regardless.")

http://www.thefreedictionary.com/irregardless

http://www.wordreference.com/definition/irregardless

http://onlinedictionary.datasegment.com/word/irregardless

http://m-w.com/cgi-bin/dictionary?book=Dictionary&va=irregardless

Cheers!

Allan (Dallara - NAABSCD)

[GPM]

No Allan, what's really funny is the fact that after reading through your post, the only thing I find to comment on is something as pedantic as your choice of adverbs.

With any luck, if I hang around here long enough, some of this accumulated wisdom will start to rub off on me.