First Ride: The 2006 BMW K1200GT - Lord Vader, Your Bike is Ready

[Deans BMW]

A good write up of the new K1200GT. :020:

http://www.onewheeldrive.net/index.php?option=content&task=view&id=492&Itemid=126&limit=1&limitstart=0


Past the 7000RPM mark the 2006 K1200GT’s engine spins up with a guttural ferocity and a growling primeval engine note serving notice to whatever the posted limit is that it’s about to be thoroughly trounced. That sound and the acceleration it represents gives the newest bike in the BMW K series some serious X-factor. Normally when you think of sport-tourer with all the creature comforts you’re not likely to be running about ranting on about “POWER!!!!” and using a lot of exclamation points. I can’t help myself from doing it though, and that makes BMW’s new K1200GT a very special sort of wolf in Bavarian clothing.

[Dallara]

Hmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmm...

Just what I waiting for - a first ride of the new 2006 K-1200-GT. Makes for a nice comparison with the new 2006 FJR-1300. Let's see...

Comparison of wet weights:

BMW's 634.5 Ibs (282 Kg) vs. Yamaha's 641 lbs (285 Kg) - BMW's 6.5 lbs lighter - Advantage BMW

Comparison of claimed horsepower:

BMW's 152 HP vs. Yamaha's 145 HP - BMW's got 7 more beans - Advantage BMW

Comparison of claimed torque:

BMW's 96 ft/lbs vs. Yamaha's 99ft/lbs - Yamaha scores 3 more ft/lbs - Advantage Yamaha

Comparison of suggested retail prices:

BMW's base price of $25,600.00 vs. Yamaha's base of $13,499.00 - Advantage Yamaha
(I didn't pay near that for my FJR, BTW...)

Well, it's pretty easy to see that the Yamaha costs $12,101.00 LESS!

Now I ask you, folks... What's wrong with this picture? Does anybody REALLY think the K-1200-GT is worth more than $12 GRAND more than the Yamaha? I thought $18+ thousand was friggin bad enough for an R-1200-RT, but $25 smakeroos for the K-GT is just a bit over the top to me...

What is BMW thinking?

I'm liking my new FJR-1300 more and more by the minute! :037:

Cheers!

Allan (Dallara - NACD)

ps - in case you were wondering, those 7 extra horsepower the BMW has cost $1,728.71 each over the Yamaha, or from a weight standpoint, it costs you $1,861.69 per pound to lose those 6.5 lbs. Those 3 ft/lbs of torque the Yamaha has over the Beemer... Well, they're worth $4,033.66 each...

[ofrogg]

Does anybody REALLY think the K-1200-GT is worth more than $12 GRAND more than the Yamaha?

Yes...

Ban HIM!

:icon_wink: wink wink!

[Optimus Prime]

BMW's base price of $25,600.00 vs. Yamaha's base of $13,499.00 - Advantage Yamaha
(I didn't pay near that for my FJR, BTW...)

Is that in Maple leaf or greenbacks?

[arkline]

Point of order...The BMW web site has a base price of $18,800 for the GT. I s'pose when you get the wheels and brakes the price goes up some...:045:

Still a bunch of cash, but the price of a used GT is still 13K when you can find one locally.

[Optimus Prime]

Point of order...The BMW web site has a base price of $18,800 for the GT. I s'pose when you get the wheels and brakes the price goes up some...:045:

Still a bunch of cash, but the price of a used GT is still 13K when you can find one locally.

My point above was that the price for the BMW Allan quoted was not in US dollars. From the article:


BMW 2006 K1200GT
Base MSRP: $25,600.00
For more information, go to BMW Motorrad Canada
It's hard to take some rants seriously, even when they are nearly spot on, when more time is taken with

emoticons :ymca:

CAPS

bold writing

and exclamations points !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! than getting key facts straight.

:058:

[arkline]

Well, regardless of price, I think it is a pretty nice looking bike. The BMW site's pictures don't do it justice. Okay, so I'm not known for a finely honed sense of aesthetics...but I did choose an 1150R...

[Dallara]

Jason...

One emoticon and two exclamation points... Three words in caps that perhaps normally wouldn't be...

Wow. Maybe I should be banned.

I apologize profusely for not realizing the article was in Canadian dollars. Doesn't really matter though. Even if the BMW K-GT is only $18,800.00 to start that's still makes it $5,301.00 dollars US more than the Yamaha, or 29% more. Do you really think it is 29% better than the Yamaha?

And $5,301.00 will buy a lot of tires, oil, gas, insurance, accessories, riding gear, etc.

Allan (Dallara - NACD)

ps. Notice no extra caps, no exclamation points, and no bolded characters. Should I sign my name in a different color? Oh, and I paid less than $13-K out-the-door (which means well under $12-K before tax, title, license, etc.) for my Yamaha, including the 5 year warranty... Wonder what kind of deals Beemer dealers will be cutting on the K-12-GT's?

[Deans BMW]

Prolly close to 20 large US$ with all the goodies............well under the Goldwing or Harley.

I also suspect that in the truest sport touring sense, the new GT has it all over the FJR however, Allans blue FJR looked great though.

[Deans BMW]

Wonder what kind of deals Beemer dealers will be cutting on the K-12-GT's?


Being that some of us have similar connections in the M/C industry as you, I can get any BMW at dead nuts cost.....if I wanted too, as I did with my ST and RR before. You are right in that there will be no discounting on the new Beemers coming out.

All kidding aside, Allan, thought your new FJR looked and sounded great, a fantastic bike especially at the price.

[ofrogg]

Wow. Maybe I should be banned.


hey man, i was just poking fun...


no hard feelings? :058:



Also, the whole bang for buck thing... As you might have read, in my recent quest for a more sporty sport touring bike... the whole buy BMW isn't always a logical thing. And yes, it is a sensative subject for some. Dean's comment, "I'm just a BMW nut"* really struck a tone with me.

* - may not be the actual comment...

[Dallara]

No worries, Ofrogg...

I knew you were only kidding around. It was Jason's barbed missive I was a bit taken aback with. In my mind my initial post in this thread wasn't even really a rant - more of an observation - yet Jason branded it a rant. Then he tags and bags me for spending "more time" on emoticons (one), words in caps (three), and exclamation points (two) and says the post shouldn't be taken seriously. That's pretty harsh, but then again I suppose Jason's never made a mistake.

I again humbly apologize for missing that the article was discussing Canadian dollars.

On to other things...

Hey Dean,

How do you figure this statement?



I also suspect that in the truest sport touring sense, the new GT has it all over the FJR however...


Be hard to convince me that the two bikes aren't aimed squarely at the same market, and that BMW looked long and hard at the FJR as a target. The similarities in horsepower, torque, weight, wheelbase, features, etc. alone point to that. What, exactly, is the "truest sport touring sense"?

As for connections in the industry, Dean, my deal on the FJR was not unusual in the slightest. Just looking at the FJR forums and boards you can see that. I actually could have bought my FJR cheaper at D&H in Alabama, and even gotten the extended factory warranty cheaper, than at my local dealer. I went with my local dealer because he's a friend and I know what a friggin' struggle making a buck with a motorcycle store in Corpus Christi is. Point is that it's easy to get a *deal* cut on a Yamaha, whereas Beemer dealers rarely cut a dime.

If you look at the entire *big picture* carefully you see some disturbing data. By and large, BMW dealers all over the country have been closing their doors - much more so than Jap bike dealers. Yet BMW corporate continues to raise prices, and now to a point where the ridiculous is bordering on the sublime. I was a devout BMW follower, ready to buy and own only Beemers the rest of riding days, but when I saw the price on the new R-1200-RT it gagged me. There is just no way it is worth $5 to $6-K more than something like the Yamaha FJR-1300 or Honda ST-1300. Kawasaki is right around the corner from bringing their own big-bore (probably 1400cc), shaft-drive, bag-equipped, big-fuel-tanked, adjustable windscreen sport touring bike (but maybe it won't be such a bike in the "truest sport touring sense", though...), and you can bet it won't be $18,000.

I really can't understand you mentioning the Gold Wing's or Harley's... Nothing Harley makes, nor a Gold Wing, is in any way a bike in the "truest sport touring sense" - not by a long shot. Nope. The new K12-GT's direct competitors in the marketplace, the magazines, and on the street will be the Yamaha FJR-1300, Honda ST-1300, Aprilia Futura, Ducati ST-3, Triumph Sprint RS, and BMW's own R-1200-RT... Not a Gold Wing or Harley, so a price comparison with the H-D's or Gold Wing makes no sense.

Maybe I am the only one who thinks this way, but the "Roundel Tax" is getting waaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaay too high for me. I doubt very seriously that the new K-12-GT is $5,000 bucks better than an FJR or ST Honda, and I would be willing to bet big money that it shows no discernable, if any, performance advantage over the FJR (and that's not because I have one, but simply because the spec sheet bears that out), and it may actually not be as good a motorcycle... We will just have to wait for some comparison tests to see. But if it is going to cost $5 Grand more than a competitor it damn sure better deliver something more... but it won't.

That's the problem. Those little propeller emblems just ain't worth 30% extra any more, if they ever were.

Cheers!

Allan (Dallara - NACD)

[arkline]

"Prolly close to 20 large US$ with all the goodies."

Well, the list of included goodies is extremely short. But the list of add-ons is pretty well fleshed out. And the pricing is there for calculating just how far you're willing to go to trick the ride out. There are two things that come standard that I really like though. Low seat with adjustibility between 31.5 and 32.3 inches and 40 mm ('bout 1.6 inches) of adjustibility in the bars without resort to aftermarket risers/pullbacks. That seems pretty cool to me.

I look at these things from the perspective that I'm really not going to run right out and buy a new bike any time soon. Sort of like not buying a Viper or H1 either. I drool and throw my money away on other things...

[Optimus Prime]

No worries, Ofrogg...

I knew you were only kidding around. It was Jason's barbed missive I was a bit taken aback with. In my mind my initial post in this thread wasn't even really a rant - more of an observation - yet Jason branded it a rant. Then he tags and bags me for spending "more time" on emoticons (one), words in caps (three), and exclamation points (two) and says the post shouldn't be taken seriously. That's pretty harsh, but then again I suppose Jason's never made a mistake.

I again humbly apologize for missing that the article was discussing Canadian dollars.

On to other things...
...
Cheers!

Allan (Dallara - NACD)
Perhaps the affect of my previous post didn't come through so well.
:028:

It was just a :stickpoke: and meant to be one bud giving another bud a hard time. You have, in the past, based your rants on incorrect or mis-interpreted information. I find it interesting that in a carefully crafted post, instead of double checking or verifying the information, especially in this case because the number was way larger than on BMW's website or anywhere else, you went straight on with it. I pointed out your error in an "in-your-face" manner. I really didn't think it would upset you, because most of your posts come across in a similar style. In this case, it seemed you were dumping on anybody that would even consider the Beemer over the FJR. Don't dish what you can't take sort of thing.

And while I'm here, please don't misquote me. I never said your observation/rant "shouldn't" be taken seriously, I said it was hard [for me] to take seriously.

I also remember when you incorrectly claimed that ABS brakes would always perform worse than non-ABS brakes, and that any rider worth his salt would never consider ABS... Now, you're showering praises upon an ABS equipped braking system. To be fair, we worked that ABS/servo thing out a while ago, but it goes to history. You're an opinionated guy who doesn't mind throwing haymakers, just don't be surprised when someone swings back. Of course, there's always the chance you don't intend your page long "observations" to come across as opinionated, heavy-handed, rants... but that's how they read to me.

As for the original rant, I actually agree (and said as much previously) with your point. For the money, the FJR makes a strong statement. It's actually way up at the top of my list for replacing the RR, especially because it has non-servo ABS and I don't have to worry about dealers being 90+ miles away or that half of the "local" dealers have folded up recently.

I'm glad you like yours and love hearing your reports. Absolutely no hard feelings on my part.

[supermotoC]

Honestly, when comparing "like" motorcycles, we should endeavor to find out the best model for the intended purpose, like the FJR vs. the K-GT. Forget the $$ until it comes time to pony up - you can either afford the better of the two, or not. There is no "$1,000 per pound" better MC - one is better than the other - period. We all may not make it to next week - so why piddle over $5k? Or $2k? Get the best one you want, then worry about the $$. Once you're broken (or dead), it won't matter how much you saved over the MV or the Norton. I bet the Yamaha wins by a nose in this one.

[Optimus Prime]

Honestly, when comparing "like" motorcycles, we should endeavor to find out the best model for the intended purpose, like the FJR vs. the K-GT. Forget the $$ until it comes time to pony up - you can either afford the better of the two, or not. There is no "$1,000 per pound" better MC - one is better than the other - period. We all may not make it to next week - so why piddle over $5k? Or $2k? Get the best one you want, then worry about the $$. Once you're broken (or dead), it won't matter how much you saved over the MV or the Norton. I bet the Yamaha wins by a nose in this one.

$5k can buy a lot of Farkles...

[Dallara]

Interesting, Jason.

I cannot recall an instance where I based my "rants" on incorrect infromation unless it was simply an error, like this one. I do make mistakes, and when I do I admit them and apologize for them if that's the correct course. Perhaps you don't...

I wasn't "dumping on anybody that would even consider the Beemer over the FJR" either. Not in the slightest. Any more than I am "dumping" on somebody when I state there is no way I would spend $20-K on a Harley. That's misinterpreting me in a major way. I realize a lot of BMW riders can be sensitive about having their bikes compared with others on a cost/benefit ratio, but I never thought you were one of those...

For the record, let's set some other misinterpretations and false conclusions straight right here, shall we?

1.) ABS brakes will perform worse, and have longer stopping distances, than non-ABS brakes if the operator is skilled enough to bring the tires to the threshold of lock-up. Any other conclusion is the one that is incorrect, not mine.

2.) I still think any highly skilled enough rider worth his salt, given the choice, would choose non-ABS over ABS every time. You sure don't see ABS on GSXR-1000's, R-1's, CBR-1000-RR's, ZX-10's, MV Agusta F-4's, Ducati 999's, Aprilia Mille's, etc. now do ya'? Riders capable of extracting all or near all the performance these bikes have to offer don't want ABS, wet or dry, because it impedes their ability to exercise the level of control they want to have.

3.) I am not "showering praises" upon the ABS on the Yamaha. I hate it. I wish it wasn't there. If I could have bought the damn thing without ABS I would have. I am even looking into disabling the ABS on it, along with skirting the linked brakes issue with it. I only mentioned that I got *into* the ABS all the time, but that I could adjust and modulate around it to lessen its impact on my riding style. The brakes on the Yamaha are fiercely strong and powerful... Too bad they are saddled with ABS to get in the way of the rider deciding the threshold of lock-up he wants. I am willing to live with Yamaha's far more transparent ABS to get the bike's other features and benefits. I am not willing to live with BMW's servos, period.

Here, you made a completely erroneous assumption and drew a totally incorrect conclusion. I still don't like ABS. I would prefer not to have ABS. I wish I had a choice with the Yamaha about ABS from the factory. I still think ABS gets in the way of skilled riders. I still think a skilled rider can match ABS in any condition.

Just because you believe ABS is the panacea for all braking doesn't mean I agree, Jason. We can reopen that can of worms if you wish, but it is one of those with no winners or losers, but it is all opinion - both your side of the issue and mine - regardless of whether you're in that business or not.

Let's put all this simply...

BMW's are becoming quite high-priced. IMHO they have crossed the threshold into the area of *overpriced* and charging for their nameplate, not any sort of superior engineering or other benefit from the additional cost. The new K-12-GT is a direct competitor to the FJR-1300 in the sport touring market segment, and for my money the FJR looks like a far better deal from a cost/benefit/performance/warranty/support standpoint, period. How you, or others, spend their money makes no difference to me. I don't like ABS. I would prefer not to have ABS.

There... No caps, no emoticons, no bolded words, and no exclamation points... And hopefully clear enough you won't misinterpret me.

Cheers!

Allan (Dallara - NACD)

[ofrogg]

Time for the Drama Llama!
http://www.thisisnotatest.org/filez/dramallama.jpg

[ofrogg]

I love those things!

[Optimus Prime]

Interesting, Jason.

I cannot recall an instance where I based my "rants" on incorrect infromation unless it was simply an error, like this one. I do make mistakes, and when I do I admit them and apologize for them if that's the correct course. Perhaps you don't...
Have I not apologized for a mistake I've made here that I'm missing?



I wasn't "dumping on anybody that would even consider the Beemer over the FJR" either. Not in the slightest. Any more than I am "dumping" on somebody when I state there is no way I would spend $20-K on a Harley. That's misinterpreting me in a major way. I realize a lot of BMW riders can be sensitive about having their bikes compared with others on a cost/benefit ratio, but I never thought you were one of those...
I'm not misinterpreting you. I'm telling you of my perceptions. And you aren't merely saying you wouldn't buy one. You said, "Does anybody REALLY think the K-1200-GT is worth more than [erroneous number] the Yamaha?" Thus implying that if someone does think it is worth more, their thinking is illogical. If you can't comprehend that and you want to lie to yourself about what you're REALLY saying, that is your problem.

I do find it interesting that you don't have a problem mis-quoting me to my face, yet you whine about somebody "mis-interpreting" you. Sounds like a double standard to me.


For the record, let's set some other misinterpretations and false conclusions straight right here, shall we?

1.) ABS brakes will perform worse, and have longer stopping distances, than non-ABS brakes if the operator is skilled enough to bring the tires to the threshold of lock-up. Any other conclusion is the one that is incorrect, not mine.

We've gone over this time and again, modern ABS will be able to equal or better non-ABS stopping distances in 99% of real world driving situations. Here's a quote from the National Highway Traffic Safety and Vehicle Research Center: "For most maneuvers, on most surfaces, ABS-assisted stopping yielded shorter distances than those made with ABS disabled". linky (http://www-nrd.nhtsa.dot.gov/vrtc/ca/capubs/abs51ids.pdf) You may know more about the motorcycle industry in general, but until you've earned your Master's in Mechanical Engineering and have actual industry ABS design time, maybe you should stick your ego back in your pocket and consider that you're wrong on this one.



2.) I still think any highly skilled enough rider worth his salt, given the choice, would choose non-ABS over ABS every time. You sure don't see ABS on GSXR-1000's, R-1's, CBR-1000-RR's, ZX-10's, MV Agusta F-4's, Ducati 999's, Aprilia Mille's, etc. now do ya'? Riders capable of extracting all or near all the performance these bikes have to offer don't want ABS, wet or dry, because it impedes their ability to exercise the level of control they want to have.
Is Deano not a highly skilled rider worth his salt? And are you trying to bolster your argument with the logic that most riders of GSXR-1000's, R-1's, CBR-1000-RR's, ZX-10's, MV Agusta F-4's, and Ducati 999's are world class riders? :037:



3.) I am not "showering praises" upon the ABS on the Yamaha. I hate it. I wish it wasn't there. If I could have bought the damn thing without ABS I would have. I am even looking into disabling the ABS on it, along with skirting the linked brakes issue with it. I only mentioned that I got *into* the ABS all the time, but that I could adjust and modulate around it to lessen its impact on my riding style. The brakes on the Yamaha are fiercely strong and powerful... Too bad they are saddled with ABS to get in the way of the rider deciding the threshold of lock-up he wants. I am willing to live with Yamaha's far more transparent ABS to get the bike's other features and benefits. I am not willing to live with BMW's servos, period.

Here, you made a completely erroneous assumption and drew a totally incorrect conclusion. I still don't like ABS. I would prefer not to have ABS. I wish I had a choice with the Yamaha about ABS from the factory. I still think ABS gets in the way of skilled riders. I still think a skilled rider can match ABS in any condition.

Well, I guess I mis-read your comments. I apologize.



Let's put all this simply...

BMW's are becoming quite high-priced. IMHO they have crossed the threshold into the area of *overpriced* and charging for their nameplate, not any sort of superior engineering or other benefit from the additional cost. The new K-12-GT is a direct competitor to the FJR-1300 in the sport touring market segment, and for my money the FJR looks like a far better deal from a cost/benefit/performance/warranty/support standpoint, period. How you, or others, spend their money makes no difference to me. I don't like ABS. I would prefer not to have ABS.

There... No caps, no emoticons, no bolded words, and no exclamation points... And hopefully clear enough you won't misinterpret me.

Cheers!

Allan (Dallara - NACD)



I don't disagree with your opinion of the price issue. Other's may. That wasn't my original point. Your original post used figures you presented as fact to support your heavy-handed opinion that the k1200GT was way overpriced compared to the FJR1300. You force this by saying, "What's wrong with this picture? Does anybody REALLY think the K-1200-GT is worth more than $12 GRAND more than the Yamaha?" implying only illogical persons would choose the BMW. Yet the basis for this heavy handed opinion was an incorrectly presented fact. If you want to hand down "holier-than-tho" opinions, it may behoove you to actually know what you're talking about... in this case the actual price of the BMW, which it seemed obvious you didn't truly know because you didn't realize $25k was way too high.

Feel free to rip off 10 pages on why I'm an idiot and everything I just said was crap, but I'm going to bow out ahead of time. I've been here with you and there isn't any value in going further. Last time I told Dave I'd bow out and cool off rather than continue, and I plan on honoring that. I really do have a lot of respect for you, but there are three things I'd like you to consider:

1. You don't know it all
2. Your opinions, no matter how experienced, are not superior to anybody elses
3. Arguing on the Internet is like competing in the special Olympics. Even if you win, you're still a retard. :020: (this would go for me as well)

[Deans BMW]

Ding, Ding, DingTime out


I do agree that BMW's are getting expensive, but I am a true blue, with out logic BMW nut, kind of like the died in the wool Harley nut, the overly high prices don't seem to make much difference. :058:

[Capt. Blackadder]

Being that some of us have similar connections in the M/C industry as you, I can get any BMW at dead nuts cost...
Lucky bastidge. I'll be taking my GT with all the extras in "FJR Blue", thank you... in about ten years.

[Biff's R]

The thing that would turn me off on the FJR(or any bike) would be having wait months to get it. That in and of itself could be worth big bucks.

But, I am not old enough to have either the GT or FJR.:icon_mrgreen:

[Rchop]

I betchya if I ordered a new GT it would be delivered without a scratch:embarassed: That extra 5K would surely cover a padded shipping crate:eusa_drool:

http://www.onewheeldrive.net/images/stories/2006/Reviews/BMW/K1200GT/IMG_0617.jpg

That pic sure looks a lot better than the other ones I have seen. I knew I wouldn't be sorry I sold my 2003 GT.

[socalrob]

Strange thread indeed.

Allan concedes a mistake!!!!!

and in the same thread

Dean concedes a bike other than a BMW looks good!!!!!!

I think I gotta go lie down. My head is spinning:104:

[DarthRider]

Rob, I believe we are in The Final Days...

Dave

[Dallara]

Jason, Jason, Jason...

There's no need to argue, really. There are some simple facts here, and they are irrefutable:

1.) I know far better what I am trying to say, and what the intent of my statements are far, far better than you do... Regardless of your self-professed powers of clairvoyance.

2.) The National Highway & Traffic Safety Administration study had to do with automobiles, not motorcycles. This may come as a shock to you, but cars are different than motorcycles, particularly in handling dynamics.

3.) I'll be happy to trade resumes with you at any time, particularly in regards to practical experience with vehicle dynamics, both two wheel and four.

4.) If I'm wrong about ABS then why doesn't every single motorcycle racing organization in the world require ABS,if for no other reason for the rider safety aspect? Further, any number of race series do not outlaw ABS, yet why is it that no race teams or professional riders use it, even if just in the wet?

5.) Even Dean has questioned recently whether he would get ABS, and has mentioned that ABS has given one hell of a scare recently in a high-speed situation. IIRC he has also mentioned perhaps getting a new R-1200-S, and would be happy that he would have the option of turning the ABS off. Don't believe me? Ask him...

6.) If ABS were a true advantage for true high-performance riding and skilled riders, each of the manufacturers I named would have ABS on those R-1's, GSXR's, etc. However, ABS is a detriment at the limit, and also a detriment to a skilled rider's ability to control the machine in any number of situation. A classic example is that you wouldn't see any riders or racers "backin' 'em into a corner" if you had ABS on the bikes, now would you?

7.) Never was I being "holier-than-tho (sic)", unlike you in your missive, Mr. Mechanical Engineer. However, I can certainly be as condescending as you are if you like... You should get some years, and maybe some real racing track time (like decades of it), under your riding belt before you decide you know anything about actually stopping a motorcycle without computer assistance. You don't know it all, either.

8.) The BMW K-12-GT may not cost $12 Grand more than the FJR. There I was mistaken, and freely admitted it and apologized for the error. That doesn't change the fact it does cost considerably more, over $5,000 more, or 29% more, than the Yamaha. As you said, even you can't disagree with the price issue, or my opinion of it. You simply don't like my delivery, which is actually your problem, not mine.

9.) Unlike another forum we all know, one can freely bash BMW's here at the Cafe'. They are not mythical wonder machines with no faults here. BMW's can be bashed and trashed here just like you can bash and trash Harley's, Yamaha's, or any other brand you can think of. People can elevate BMW's in their minds to legendary status, just like Harley riders do along with fanatics of other brands, but that doesn't change the fact that BMW's have a lot of faults and foibles, too, or that they may very well be overpriced.

10.) You win.

Cheers!

Allan (Dallara - NACD)

[Deans BMW]

They are not mythical wonder machines

I beg to differ............

Have you not seen my ST leap tall buildings in a single bound, and we all know about its self healing properties, Allan, surley you jest.......................

[Optimus Prime]

There's no need to argue, really. There are some simple facts here, and they are irrefutable:

2.) The National Highway & Traffic Safety Administration study had to do with automobiles, not motorcycles. This may come as a shock to you, but cars are different than motorcycles, particularly in handling dynamics.
I don't recall the study concerning the handling of the vehicles. If you actually thought about and read the study, you'd realize that what was really being evaluated is the ABS's ability to maintain "threshold" braking in various conditions as well or better than a driver. Of course, if sticking your head in the sand and not actually considering the validity of the study helps you hang on to your antiquated ideas...



3.) I'll be happy to trade resumes with you at any time, particularly in regards to practical experience with vehicle dynamics, both two wheel and four.
"Practical experience", what do you mean by that? Riding? Racing? In fact, I don't recall disagreeing with you on any vehicle dynamics. The real crux of the issue, is can ABS "threshold" brake in most situations as well as an experienced rider. This deals with the systems ability to detect wheel lock-up and respond as quickly as a rider. It would seem you are trying to argue other factors, which have nothing to do with my contention.



4.) If I'm wrong about ABS then why doesn't every single motorcycle racing organization in the world require ABS,if for no other reason for the rider safety aspect? Further, any number of race series do not outlaw ABS, yet why is it that no race teams or professional riders use it, even if just in the wet?
Can you tell me how many motoGP bikes use headlights? Turn signals? I guess those are all worthless too.

Seriously, how many race bikes would make excellent street bikes? Yet, all of your arguments revolve around racing bikes. I don't know how many MotoGP races that involve a garbage truck pulling out of an alley in front of the riders, or speed limits, or stop lights, or spilled diesel fuel, or SUV's driven by distracted soccer moms...

Hmm, perhaps racing and real world riding our different. What an idea.

Perhaps you could try to stick to the actual argument. That ABS brakes can equal or better non-ABS brakes in stopping distance on 99% of real world operation. Not how well they do on race tracks, not brake feel, not weight. This is about your completely ignorant statement that, "ABS brakes will... have longer stopping distances, than non-ABS brakes if the operator is skilled enough to bring the tires to the threshold of lock-up. Any other conclusion is the one that is incorrect, not mine."

The study presented before is clearly indicative that modern ABS braking systems have the ability to outperform non-ABS braking systems in this catagory. The difference in vehicle dynamics really don't come into play because the ABS mechinism is virtually identical.



5.) Even Dean has questioned recently whether he would get ABS, and has mentioned that ABS has given one hell of a scare recently in a high-speed situation. IIRC he has also mentioned perhaps getting a new R-1200-S, and would be happy that he would have the option of turning the ABS off. Don't believe me? Ask him...
Again, he's mentioned that the only time he had a concern was at a full on "racing" type situation. I have never argued that ABS is for racing. I've only countered your incorrect statement that ABS systems take longer to stop.



6.) If ABS were a true advantage for true high-performance riding and skilled riders, each of the manufacturers I named would have ABS on those R-1's, GSXR's, etc. However, ABS is a detriment at the limit, and also a detriment to a skilled rider's ability to control the machine in any number of situation. A classic example is that you wouldn't see any riders or racers "backin' 'em into a corner" if you had ABS on the bikes, now would you?

Blah, blah, blah. Your whole argument is based around racing and how ABS isn't great for racing. I don't care. None of this is proof or evidence that ABS is a stopping distance liability for street riding. This is like saying that there hasn't been a boxer twin win or compete in MotoGP in the last 10 years, thus boxer twins are a liability on the road. It's complete trash, and I'm calling you on it.

Let me break it down for everyone in real simple terms. Consider two identical motorcycles, being ridden on two identical surfaces. To maintain maximum braking, you must bring the wheel to impending lock-up and maintain that impending lock-up. The non-ABS system involves the riders brain taking in the physical sensations and "Calculating" impending lock-up and then sending the signals to the muscles responsible for applying changes to the braking system. The ABS system also reads signals and changes braking force to maintain impending lock-up. It all breaks down to receiving an input, calculating, and sending an output. Currently ABS can do that as well as a human. This basic concept of threshold braking and the mechanical system inployed are, for this discussion, identical. Therefor the test done on automobiles is a valid counter to your incorrect claim that ABS systems can not threshold brake as well as humans. Modern ABS systems can stop you in an equal or shorter distance than non-ABS systems. The End.

[Moose]

Personally, I've always found the arresting cable the quickest and most reliable way to stop. Even keeps you on center line. But usually only available on US aircraft carriers. :cool: As Darth has suggested, we need hooks on bikes.

[supermotoC]

Duuuuuude - the Bat-chute works just fine for me - especially in traffic.

:028:

[Dallara]

Jason, Jason, Jason...

First off, the NHTSA knows about as much about motorcycles as my neighbor's pet Airedale, yet you hang your hat on that study... One that has to do with quantifying the ability of soccer moms and stockbrokers to maintain, or even approach threshold braking in an automobile.

And somehow your contention is that such a study has more to do with motorcycle braking and motorcycle ABS than motorcycle racing does. Sorry, doesn't play here, or in Peoria, either. Motorcycle racers deal with balancing on the threshold of wheel lock-up every single lap, wet or dry, with gravel scattered on the course often from lap to lap, or perhaps a rider or two crashing right in front of them. Quite often they get caught out on slicks when it starts raining... And let me tell ya' (from personal experience, BTW... Not an NHTSA study), you ain't lived until you have tried to balance maximum braking on a freshly wetted down race track on a set of slicks that need heat in 'em just to maintain any sort of bite. It's akin to riding on oiled ice covered in ball-bearings.

But of course, that has nothing to do with braking on the street... At least not as much as a goverment agency most commonly referred to being in the pocket of the insurance industry doing a study on autombile braking, right?

Besides, rarely, if ever, do those soccer moms or stockbrokers practice, or even approach, threshold braking, whereas motorcycle racers do each and every lap.

Like I said before, try some racing yourself, and then come back and tell me it has nothing to do with riding on the street, or about threshold braking. That's only part of what I meant about "practical experience", but it's a good place for you to start. Books are great, and so is the lab, and even a test track where you control the test... but none of that is like the crucible of racing to win. And the point here is that if the " real crux of the issue, is can ABS "threshold" brake in most situations as well as an experienced rider. This deals with the systems ability to detect wheel lock-up and respond as quickly as a rider..." then race teams would be using ABS. Why? Because if would be more consistent, would reduce lap times, and be safer for the rider and the competitors around him. But it is not as good as truly skilled riders, and so it stays on the shelf...

And if you don't believe it is not as good as skilled riders, then you need look no further than our own mid-60's Dean Lear, who still managed to save himself from a crash that ABS tried to drag him into... And he was not on a race track, but on those same public roadways you claim ABS works better on than anything else.

Street bikes use headlights and turn signals because they are mandated by law. MotoGP bikes have rules, too. Just different ones, and not ones required by law. Yet, ABS is not mandated by law or rules makers in either instance, despite your claims it makes for safer braking in "most situations." Believe me, if MotoGP ever races at night, like they are exploring the possibility of doing, there will be some sort of lighting on them (even if it is just positional, like aircraft)... Besides, let's look at this another way... What about all the safety and improved performance (in handling and braking) that came from racing? Things like disc brakes, radial brakes, radial master cylinders, better tire compounds and designs, better suspension systems, aerodynamic refinements, etc. All of these make for better street bikes, and yet they came from racing first... ABS has so far shown no real performance improvement, so it stays off the racers, period, just like headlights and turn signals do... But then again, headlights and turn signals are not performance improvements, right?

But you claim ABS is...

BTW, race bikes make TERRIFIC street bikes. Just ask anybody who has raced some. Their power is usually more controllable and responsive, their handling and suspension far better, and their braking and adhesion levels far superior to production iron.

As for "calling" anybody on anything... So far you haven't even been able to dial the number. Skilled and very experienced MOTORCYCLE RIDERS are, in my opinion, better at braking in more situations than current motorcycle ABS systems. And they're are more than significant differences in handling dynamics between cars and motorcycles to render your use of that lame NHTSA study ludicrous... Like braking while leaned over in a corner, which last I checked is not something a car does very often, but a motorcycle rider does every day. Nor does braking on a car alter the steering geometry, pitch of the chassis, etc. to nearly the degree braking does on a motorcycle...

So there is nothing "identical" about threshold braking with cars and motorcycles - other than inside your head.

But hey, like I said before... You win.

Cheers!

Allan (Dallara - NACD)

[Optimus Prime]

Jason, Jason, Jason...

First off, the NHTSA knows about as much about motorcycles as my neighbor's pet Airedale, yet you hang your hat on that study... One that has to do with quantifying the ability of soccer moms and stockbrokers to maintain, or even approach threshold braking in an automobile.

And somehow your contention is that such a study has more to do with motorcycle braking and motorcycle ABS than motorcycle racing does. Sorry, doesn't play here, or in Peoria, either. Motorcycle racers deal with balancing on the threshold of wheel lock-up every single lap, wet or dry, with gravel scattered on the course often from lap to lap, or perhaps a rider or two crashing right in front of them. Quite often they get caught out on slicks when it starts raining... And let me tell ya' (from personal experience, BTW... Not an NHTSA study), you ain't lived until you have tried to balance maximum braking on a freshly wetted down race track on a set of slicks that need heat in 'em just to maintain any sort of bite. It's akin to riding on oiled ice covered in ball-bearings.

But of course, that has nothing to do with braking on the street... At least not as much as a goverment agency most commonly referred to being in the pocket of the insurance industry doing a study on autombile braking, right?

Besides, rarely, if ever, do those soccer moms or stockbrokers practice, or even approach, threshold braking, whereas motorcycle racers do each and every lap.

Like I said before, try some racing yourself, and then come back and tell me it has nothing to do with riding on the street, or about threshold braking. That's only part of what I meant about "practical experience", but it's a good place for you to start. Books are great, and so is the lab, and even a test track where you control the test... but none of that is like the crucible of racing to win. And the point here is that if the " real crux of the issue, is can ABS "threshold" brake in most situations as well as an experienced rider. This deals with the systems ability to detect wheel lock-up and respond as quickly as a rider..." then race teams would be using ABS. Why? Because if would be more consistent, would reduce lap times, and be safer for the rider and the competitors around him. But it is not as good as truly skilled riders, and so it stays on the shelf...

And if you don't believe it is not as good as skilled riders, then you need look no further than our own mid-60's Dean Lear, who still managed to save himself from a crash that ABS tried to drag him into... And he was not on a race track, but on those same public roadways you claim ABS works better on than anything else.

Street bikes use headlights and turn signals because they are mandated by law. MotoGP bikes have rules, too. Just different ones, and not ones required by law. Yet, ABS is not mandated by law or rules makers in either instance, despite your claims it makes for safer braking in "most situations." Believe me, if MotoGP ever races at night, like they are exploring the possibility of doing, there will be some sort of lighting on them (even if it is just positional, like aircraft)... Besides, let's look at this another way... What about all the safety and improved performance (in handling and braking) that came from racing? Things like disc brakes, radial brakes, radial master cylinders, better tire compounds and designs, better suspension systems, aerodynamic refinements, etc. All of these make for better street bikes, and yet they came from racing first... ABS has so far shown no real performance improvement, so it stays off the racers, period, just like headlights and turn signals do... But then again, headlights and turn signals are not performance improvements, right?

But you claim ABS is...

BTW, race bikes make TERRIFIC street bikes. Just ask anybody who has raced some. Their power is usually more controllable and responsive, their handling and suspension far better, and their braking and adhesion levels far superior to production iron.

As for "calling" anybody on anything... So far you haven't even been able to dial the number. Skilled and very experienced MOTORCYCLE RIDERS are, in my opinion, better at braking in more situations than current motorcycle ABS systems. And they're are more than significant differences in handling dynamics between cars and motorcycles to render your use of that lame NHTSA study ludicrous... Like braking while leaned over in a corner, which last I checked is not something a car does very often, but a motorcycle rider does every day. Nor does braking on a car alter the steering geometry, pitch of the chassis, etc. to nearly the degree braking does on a motorcycle...

So there is nothing "identical" about threshold braking with cars and motorcycles - other than inside your head.

But hey, like I said before... You win.

Cheers!

Allan (Dallara - NACD)
:044:
what you've just said is one of the most insanely idiotic things I have ever heard. At no point in your rambling, incoherent response were you even close to anything that could be considered a rational thought. Everyone in this room is now dumber for having listened to it. I award you no points, and may God have mercy on your soul.

[supermotoC]

I think Allan gets points for distance, and Jason gets points for accuracy. Or is it the other way 'round?

anyway, game ... set... MATCH!

http://img104.imagevenue.com/loc175/th_23662_map.jpg (http://img104.imagevenue.com/img.php?loc=loc175&image=23662_map.jpg)

[Dallara]

Well, like Bob says...

ABS is for pussies!

Now that's an accurate statement. :dance: :045: :dance: :045: :dance:

Man, I wonder if all those MotoGP, 250 GP, 125 GP, World Superbike, US Superbike, World Endurance, US Endurance, etc. teams and their engineers, mechanics, and team managers know how much better ABS is at threshold braking than their own riders, wet or dry. Do ya' think they do?

And all those stupid, idiotic, clueless, dumber riders out there who ride every day without ABS, and have for years... Geez, if they only knew they were actually taking their lives in their own two hands (or two forefingers...), instead of turning all their braking worries over to computerized ABS!

But Jason, really... The "God have mercy on your soul" rebuttal, followed by the everyone is "now dumber" assertion???

Now THAT'S the lamest thing I've ever heard.

I guess the road to wisdom is paved with only your pearls, eh?

Let's go riding sometime, Jason. That should be fun, don't ya' think?

And how about that Casey Stoner??? :023: :023: :023:

He damn sure don't need no stinkin' ABS!

Cheers!

Allan (Dallara - NACD, and wondering how he ever survived over 35 years of riding on the street and 22 years on motorcycle race tracks without ABS and Jason's vast wisdom and infinite intellect...)

[fnfalman]

I was a fan of ABS on bikes until I owned one. If I could do it all over again, I would not get my Rockster with ABS. ABS in cars don't correlate the same way as ABS on bikes.

[socalrob]

One reason I can think of as to why ABS in cars is more important than bikes is because on a bike you can modulate each brake seperatly, in a car its one pedal for all 4 brakes, which are likely on wheels on surfaces having different coefficients of friction, thus ABS is really the only way to get all 4 car tires braking to impending lockup in real street conditions. A bike you actually get to have control over both wheels.

That said, the only real advantage I see for ABS on bikes is as a safety net to bail you out of a panic situation - ie, will I brake correctly when I have a half second to save my skin? For veteran riders with many 100,000 miles under their belts on many types of bikes, they probably don't need that safety blanket. For myself, with maybe 40,000 street miles, I still appreciate the ABS safety blanket. I will concede that it would be nice if it were more transparant & without servos.

Allan,

Your continued references to MotoGP may get you in trouble one of these days. I suspect that between their traction control programs & computer driven throttle, that we may soon see very rapid response computer & light weight (like a pound or two) ABS systems on GP bikes. I'm thinking it may start out as more of an automatic braking program to control wheel spin. Of course once you have that, you have all the components for ABS, so it could definatly show up. I could be wrong, but I'd be willing to bet its on the horizon. Like anything else, motorcycle ABS, in its current relatively crude infancy, will most likely be much improved & refined (like sampling 1000 times per second instead of 2 times per second, thereby allowing higher threasholds of tire howl) & get to the point at which it is as good as an expert rider.

[Dallara]

Don't tell Jason (Optimus Prime) that, Fnfalman.

According to him ABS on bikes is "identical" to cars, period. A 100% correlation of bikes and their riders to cars and their drivers in that NHTSA study... If you don't agree with him there then you are "sticking your head in the sand" and hanging onto "antiquated ideas..."

Now only that, but if you have the idea that riding on the street without ABS is plenty safe, and affords you better braking feel and control, he thinks that's "complete trash, and (he's) calling you on it."

And you are most assuredly "dumber" for even considering anything other than ABS, he will "award you no points", and only wish that "God have mercy on your soul..."

You see, to Jason ABS IS THE HOLY GRAIL, and any other viewpoint is pure blasphemy! :flamin_dj:

And heaven forbid you say a damn word about BMW's costing too much... :118:

Edit: And SocalRob... You are exactly right. No doubt one day they will develop the systems you mention, and when they do, and WHEN THEY ARE 100% TRANSPARENT AND SHOW A MEASURABLE PERFORMANCE IMPROVEMENT CONSISTENTLY AND UNDER ALL CONDITIONS, YET STILL ALLOW YOU TO MODULATE BRAKING TO ALTER CHASSIS ORIENTATION ON CORNER ENTRY, then I will happily concede to Mr. Prime Master Engineer of ABS, Jason... But the simple fact is, the systems are not there yet... Not even close for motorcycles. Only then will they be equal to, or superior, to a savvy, experienced, and skilled street rider on the roads we have today.

Of course, you'll never get Jason to admit that.

Cheers!

Allan (Dallara - NACD, and anti-ABS and proud of it! Full of *Merch* and more than willing to make braking decisions on my own, thankyouverymuch!)

[Optimus Prime]

Don't tell Jason (Optimus Prime) that, Fnfalman.

According to him ABS on bikes is "identical" to cars, period. A 100% correlation of bikes and their riders to cars and their drivers in that NHTSA study... If you don't agree with him there then you are "sticking your head in the sand" and hanging onto "antiquated ideas..."

Now only that, but if you have the idea that riding on the street without ABS is plenty safe, and affords you better braking feel and control, he thinks that's "complete trash, and (he's) calling you on it."

And you are most assuredly "dumber" for even considering anything other than ABS, he will "award you no points", and only wish that "God have mercy on your soul..."

You see, to Jason ABS IS THE HOLY GRAIL, and any other viewpoint is pure blasphemy! :flamin_dj:

And heaven forbid you say a damn word about BMW's costing too much... :118:

Edit: And SocalRob... You are exactly right. No doubt one day they will develop the systems you mention, and when they do, and WHEN THEY ARE 100% TRANSPARENT AND SHOW A MEASURABLE PERFORMANCE IMPROVEMENT CONSISTENTLY AND UNDER ALL CONDITIONS, YET STILL ALLOW YOU TO MODULATE BRAKING TO ALTER CHASSIS ORIENTATION ON CORNER ENTRY, then I will happily concede to Mr. Prime Master Engineer of ABS, Jason... But the simple fact is, the systems are not there yet... Not even close for motorcycles. Only then will they be equal to, or superior, to a savvy, experienced, and skilled street rider on the roads we have today.

Of course, you'll never get Jason to admit that.

Cheers!

Allan (Dallara - NACD, and anti-ABS and proud of it! Full of *Merch* and more than willing to make braking decisions on my own, thankyouverymuch!)
Much like a politician, your entire argument is based on putting words in my mouth. You seem to be unable to understand that I'm not saying all of your "opinions" about ABS are wrong. I'm merely contending that your statement:

1.) ABS brakes will perform worse, and have longer stopping distances, than non-ABS brakes if the operator is skilled enough to bring the tires to the threshold of lock-up. Any other conclusion is the one that is incorrect, not mine.
is wrong.

I often question the need for ABS on motorcycles, especially in BMW's current configuration. However, I really didn't want to sit around and let your blatant lying go unchallenged.

Since you seem to be unable to logically counter my arguments concerning your incorrect statement, you have turned to mocking me for statements about ABS that I have never made. It's fairly sad really, but not unexpected from someone who's ego far out steps their intelligence.

So to be clear.

-I do not feel that ABS brakes have the same level of feel as non-ABS brakes
-I do not feel that ABS brakes allow experienced riders the same level of "at the edge" control as non-ABS brakes.
-I do not feel that ABS is the Holy Grail of anything.
-I do not feel that ABS is required to safely ride a motorcycle.
-I do not feel that other opinions than mine are "blasphemy".

However, I do know that the basic mechanical mechanism that operates an automobiles ABS is the same basic mechanical mechanism that operates a motorcycle ABS system. I also know that an ABS-equipped motorcycle has the ability stop in a shorter or equal distance to an identical, non-ABS motorcycle in most all real world riding situations.

Any questions?

[BobFV1]

We've gone over this time and again, modern ABS will be able to equal or better non-ABS stopping distances in 99% of real world driving situations. Here's a quote from the National Highway Traffic Safety and Vehicle Research Center: "For most maneuvers, on most surfaces, ABS-assisted stopping yielded shorter distances than those made with ABS disabled". linky (http://www-nrd.nhtsa.dot.gov/vrtc/ca/capubs/abs51ids.pdf)

I can explain it! The National Highway Traffic Safety and Vehicle Research Center are pussies. :eusa_drool:

[Dallara]

Wow, Jason...

Talk about ego. You got enough for both of us, particularly since you are obviously so much more intelligent, right?

I'll put it simply for you... I stand behind this statement 100%:

ABS brakes will perform worse, and have longer stopping distances, than non-ABS brakes if the operator is skilled enough to bring the tires to the threshold of lock-up. Any other conclusion is the one that is incorrect, not mine.

I made it, and I will not back away from it, nor will I simply concede it is "wrong" (am I putting words into your mouth or misquoting you there, Master Jason?) because you, or a completely unrelated and dubious NHTSA study says so.

Got that?

You have not made a single cogent argument that my contention above is incorrect or inaccurate other than to drag out, again, a dubious and non-motorcycle-specific or even related NHTSA report, so there is no need for any other arguments from my side to counter ones you have never made.

Until you can present some even remotely reasonable data to support your statement that you KNOW "that an ABS-equipped motorcycle has the ability stop in a shorter or equal distance to an identical, non-ABS motorcycle in most all real world riding situations..." then I don't need to present any other arguments or rebuttals outside of my own personal experiences or the examples in racing I have already laid out here.

Why?

Because you don't KNOW a thing regarding your statement above, Jason. It is no more than an OPINION, and as such is no more valid than mine, Mr. Master Jason. It is also readily apparent you have very little riding experience at the outer edges of the motorcycle performance envelope, if at all.

And while we're here, please recall that you misquoted me plenty, and put words in my mouth I didn't say, like supposedly singing praises about the ABS on my FJR. I guess it's fine for you to do it, but you get a bit sideways when someone plays the same fast and loose game with you, eh Jason?

You're backpedalling, Jason, and it's pretty obvious. I'm not, and I'm not talking about "most" conditions like you are giving yourself an *out* with. Nope, I'm saying that in ALL conditions a sufficiently skilled rider, who is experienced with bringing the tires to the threshold of lock-up, will stop quicker and shorter without an ABS system than with it, period.

No qualifications. No backpedalling. No questioning anybody's intelligence.

Now, prove me wrong. Give me proof that is relevant to motorcycles and not to cars. Logically counter my arguments with something other than an unrelated and certainly dubious NHTSA study having to do with automobiles.

Any questions?

And better yet, let's you and I get together and prove it. You on your ABS equipped R-1150-R and me on my non-ABS R-1150-R, okay?

And Bob's right... The NHTSA is a bunch of pussies, and they always have been, and always will be. I've been around 'em for decades, Jason. They are worms and maggots of the lowest possible degree.

Allan (Dallara - NACD)

[ofrogg]

They are worms and maggots of the lowest possible degree.

Don't you sell cars?

:064:

:) *playin!*

[Gord]

Wow. I hadn't realized what I had been missing here. A fascinating read. A couple of points from my perspective:


With the Canadian dollar continuing to strengthen against the US Dollar (the Canadian dollar is higher than it has been in 30 years), I am wondering when BMW will either lower the Canadian price to be more inline with the US price. Or when will BMW raise the US price to be more inline with the Canadian price.
Regardless of whether or not the Canadian price moves down (yeah, just like the price of bread goes down when the price of wheat goes down) or the US price moves up, one has to question why the Japanese can produce quality bikes for less than others. Is it a production cost issue or just greed that explains the price difference? That was really just Allan's point.
ABS is a non-winnable argument. It is a limitation for some riders as Allan points out. It is a help to others as Jason points out. I bought my bike with ABS because I was a new rider in 2004 and I wanted that extra help. With 2 full seasons under my belt and over 20K kilometres, I am not sure I would buy ABS again. In part because I am more comfortable riding now and in part because I am not sure that the dollars spent on ABS have yielded the benefit. I think the $$ spent on ABS in 2004 may have been better spent on some Advanced Rider Training each year instead.


But that is only my opinion. So Deep Six or Embrace It. Your call. No hard feelings either way.

[Dallara]

As usual...

Gord completely gets it, and gets it perfectly. Not only that, he distills it down to its purest essence without any excess color, flavor, or consistency anomalies.

Thanks, Gord.

Cheers!

Allan (Dallara - NACD)

[BobFV1]

ABS brakes will perform worse, and have longer stopping distances, than non-ABS brakes if the operator is skilled enough to bring the tires to the threshold of lock-up. Any other conclusion is the one that is incorrect, not mine.

I almost completely agree with this. I would add to "skilled" other qualifiers such as physically capable, attentive, and possessing at least average reflexes, but in principal I agree.

ABS does take out the main variables related to operator perception and reaction. I don't have it on any of my bikes any more. There are situations where I think it would be good to have it, but I have gotten myself out of plenty of very tough jams without it over the years.

Personal choice at the end of the day, I think.

[Optimus Prime]

I'll put it simply for you... I stand behind this statement 100%:

ABS brakes will perform worse, and have longer stopping distances, than non-ABS brakes if the operator is skilled enough to bring the tires to the threshold of lock-up. Any other conclusion is the one that is incorrect, not mine.

You have not made a single cogent argument that my contention above is incorrect or inaccurate other than to drag out, again, a dubious and non-motorcycle-specific or even related NHTSA report, so there is no need for any other arguments from my side to counter ones you have never made.

Until you can present some even remotely reasonable data to support your statement that you KNOW "that an ABS-equipped motorcycle has the ability stop in a shorter or equal distance to an identical, non-ABS motorcycle in most all real world riding situations..." then I don't need to present any other arguments or rebuttals outside of my own personal experiences or the examples in racing I have already laid out here.

Why?

Because you don't KNOW a thing regarding your statement above, Jason. It is no more than an OPINION, and as such is no more valid than mine, Mr. Master Jason. It is also readily apparent you have very little riding experience at the outer edges of the motorcycle performance envelope, if at all.
First, you stated your initial statement as being "irrefutable fact". Not opinion. Who's backpedaling now? (http://www.motorcyclistcafe.com/forums/showpost.php?p=10051&postcount=27)

English lesson:
Opinion: a personal belief or judgment that is not founded on proof or certainty link (http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&lr=&safe=off&defl=en&q=define:opinion&sa=X&oi=glossary_definition&ct=title)
Therefore, you can not make a statement that "X" is true and any other conclusion is false and claim it to be an opinion. Since you claim it to be an opinion then your statement has just broken the logical rules governing language and is no longer a valid statement. So which is it, an "irrefutable fact" or an opinion?

If it is fact, then I'd like proof at least equal to my argument.

What proof have you shown to back up your statement? None. Just an opinion and a whole bunch of strutting.



And while we're here, please recall that you misquoted me plenty, and put words in my mouth I didn't say, like supposedly singing praises about the ABS on my FJR. I guess it's fine for you to do it, but you get a bit sideways when someone plays the same fast and loose game with you, eh Jason?
You are on record as praising the brakes without lamenting the ABS, I made the incorrect assumption that you had made peace with ABS. I was wrong, admitted and apologized as such. I don't really see how that's in the same class as what you've been doing, but keep spinning it whichever way you must.



Now, prove me wrong. Give me proof that is relevant to motorcycles and not to cars. Logically counter my arguments with something other than an unrelated and certainly dubious NHTSA study having to do with automobiles.

Any questions?

Allan (Dallara - NACD)
Another English lesson:
dubious -doubtful: fraught with uncertainty or doubt.

I'm really not sure how the study is dubious in and of itself. The real problem is the correlation between motorcycle and automotive ABS systems. So why don't you give me a run down of just exactly the differences in the ABS systems of a motorcycle and automobile...

ABS 101
The theory behind anti-lock brakes is simple. A skidding wheel (where the tire contact patch is sliding relative to the road) has less traction than a non-skidding wheel. This is because the contact patch is sliding relative to the road and static friction is greater than kinetic friction. By keeping the wheels from skidding while you slow down, you'll stop faster, and you'll be able to steer while you stop.

Inside ABS
There are three main components to an ABS system:

Speed Sensors
The anti-lock braking system needs some way of knowing when a wheel is about to lock up. The speed sensors, which are located at each wheel provide this information.

Valves
There is a valve in the brake line of each brake controlled by the ABS. On some systems, the valve has three main positions and many sub-positions:

* In position one, the valve is open; pressure from the master cylinder is passed right through to the brake.
* In position two, the valve blocks the line, isolating that brake from the master cylinder. This prevents the pressure from rising further should the driver push the brake pedal harder.
* In position three, the valve releases some of the pressure from the brake.

Controller
The controller is a computer that watches the speed sensors and controls the valves.

the current crop of BMW ABS samples speed and adjusts braking no less than 330 times per second. ABS systems currently being fitted for vehicles to be released in the next 2 years are over 1000 times per second.


The study presented previously compares vehicles using ABS to the same vehicles not using ABS. Thus none of the vehicle dynamics between non-ABS and ABS equipped vehicles come into play. It's a basic scientific study that eliminates vehicle dynamics from the equation and only focuses on the ABS's ability compared to a human at threshold braking. Therefore, the differences between the automobile and a motorcycle vehicle dynamics that would impact braking would be present on both non-ABS and ABS motorcycles and would impact braking equally.

To go deeper, a car's braking force starts at an actuator (pedal linkage) and raises hydraulic pressure in the brake lines that go to calipers that force brake pads into rotors (here the rotational energy is translated into heat energy) that are directly connected through wheels to the tire and thus the tire contact patches. The only difference in a motorcycle is that the actuator is a lever for the front brakes. Now, we've gone through what the ABS system is, the similarities between braking systems and how the sited study removes individual vehicle dynamics from the equation. Ergo, I've given my "proof" that the car study should translate to motorcycles.

Would you like to do the same, or will you continue to rely upon personal opinions to back up your "irrefutable facts".

[fnfalman]

OK,

A car's ABS comes in handy because you jam on the brake pedal and you keep on steering. It will slow down in a controlled manner regardless because it has four wheels and a lot of weight.

A bike's ABS will give a new rider false senses of security. Brake hard in a corner and you will slide off, ABS or not.

So, we can brake hard in a straight line in an emergency braking. I'll buy that. But the way the BMW ABS set up with the linked brakes and servo activation just isn't good. The moto magazine riders have complained about this issue, and now the riders themselves (such as myself) are complaining about this setup and the point of fact that BMW is doing away with this setup in the R1200S is telling.

ABS needs to be unobtrusive and not complicated. ABS needs to have an on-off switch. Linked brakes don't need to be there at all, much less tied into ABS.

We're not talking about Harley or Victory or some sort of pedestrian riding machine here. We're talking about BMW motorcycles. They are meant to be ridden hard and sportively. They may not be sport bikes or race bikes but they are meant to be highly capable street machines. Can't ride them to their fullest with the current silly ABS system.

[Dallara]

Gonna' give ya' two clues, Jason...

To allow you to extricate yourself from the hole you just dug, and I'm only gonna' do that as a courtesy.

1.) Better go back and check on exactly what I said was "irrefutable fact..." - and here's two hints - one, I never said that:

ABS brakes will perform worse, and have longer stopping distances, than non-ABS brakes if the operator is skilled enough to bring the tires to the threshold of lock-up. Any other conclusion is the one that is incorrect, not mine.

Was an irrefutable fact, and two, look here:

http://www.motorcyclistcafe.com/forums/showthread.php?p=10051#post10051

And look for the word "irrefutable" and then read what follows it, then get back to me.


2.) Now for the second one... First off, you have no need to explain braking systems to me. I was rebuilding motorcycle and automobile brake systems in 1970, and worked on braking systems on everything from current day ABS equipped Ford products (for just one) to Honda's first attempts at motorcycle ABS, along with BMW's early attempts, to race bikes to street bikes and all the way to Indy cars - both CART and IRL.

We ALL know how basic braking systems work here, so doing your "strutting" like you are going to teach us all something about basic braking systems is fluffing and stroking your own over-active ego... Geez, I would have loved to watch you try and set-up and equalize a four-leading shoe cable-actuated front brake...

The basic crux of this entire matter is that a motorcycle is NOT a car, nor does it handle like one at any time, and particularly not during braking. The fundamental dynamic handling differences render any comparison to cars under heavy braking moot, dubious, and unsupportable.

But since you don't want to listen, nor believe me, I am going to refer you elsewhere for my "proof". If you will take the time to read, and learn, you will discover that any number of factors can alter multiple things during motorcycle braking manuevers that will greatly effect the ability of any current ABS system to operate as effectively as it would on a four-wheel platform. Motorcycles simply present a different set of problems than cars do under braking, but as long as you keep approaching motorcycle braking with an automobile mindset (and that both are the same) your conclusion and opinions will continue to be false...

But enough of me trying to reason with you. Let's let these other folks do it for me, and I trust 'em all a hell of a lot more than the NHTSA...

http://www.tonyfoale.com/Articles/Balance/BALANCE.htm

http://www.tonyfoale.com/Articles/Tyres/TYRES.htm

http://www.tonyfoale.com/Articles/RakeEx/RakeEx.htm

http://www.tonyfoale.com/Articles/Steer/STEER.htm

http://www.tonyfoale.com/Articles/Dive/DIVE.htm

http://www.tonyfoale.com/Articles/2WD_2WS/2WD_2WS.htm


And more importantly:


http://www.dinamoto.it/DINAMOTO/on-line%20papers/effetto%20giroscopico/Gyroscopic%20effects.html

http://www.dinamoto.it/DINAMOTO/on-line%20papers/torquewww/steeringtorque.htm

http://www.dinamoto.it/DINAMOTO/on-line%20papers/2001_ATA_torque/presentazione%20ATA%20firenze_file/frame.htm

http://www.dinamoto.it/DINAMOTO/on-line%20papers/barcellona_99/steering.html

http://www.dinamoto.it/DINAMOTO/on-line%20papers/Pneumatici_file/tires_eng/Tires.htm

http://www.dinamoto.it/DINAMOTO/on-line%20papers/vibrations/vibmode.html

http://www.dinamoto.it/DINAMOTO/on-line%20papers/Tesi_Maggio/ENG%20Articolo%20web%20tesi.htm

http://www.dinamoto.it/DINAMOTO/on-line%20papers/Avancorsa/trail.htm


And now, most important of all, these:

http://www.dinamoto.it/DINAMOTO/on-line%20papers/frenata/Braking%20paper/braking_new.htm

http://www.dinamoto.it/DINAMOTO/on-line%20papers/H4_low%20fall%20front%20brake/low%20fall_braking_front.html

http://www.dinamoto.it/DINAMOTO/on-line%20papers/H3_low%20fall%20rear%20brake/low%20fall_braking_rear.html

http://www.dinamoto.it/DINAMOTO/on-line%20papers/H1_High_side_braking/high_side_braking.html

http://www.dinamoto.it/DINAMOTO/on-line%20papers/H2_High_side_thrusting/high%20side_thrusting.html

http://www.dinamoto.it/DINAMOTO/on-line%20papers/Modena_99/dangerous%20manouvres.html

(it looks like this one just above is in Italian. It's not, just scroll down a bit)


There's a whole lot more there, and you can access it all by starting at:

http://www.dinamoto.it/

Now understand, you really should read them in order, and when some state they are about vibratory modes they aren't talking about engine vibes.

Now, if after reading all that, if you can say to me that braking manuevers with a car somehow directly correlates with braking manuevers on a motorcycle then I'm afraid you and I will never get there. The two vehicles are so vastly different in how they operate in the world as to almost be from different planets or from different dimensions. Nothing correlates between them literally.

Now, here you need to go back again and see what I said was "irrefutable" and what wasn't, because right there is where you have made your biggest misstep.

Then, please note how every article, study, research document, formula, etc. presented in my "proofs" above have to do with

MOTORCYCLES!

Not cars...

Sorry. Just wanted to show how goofy that looks...

Allan (Dallara - NACD)

[socalrob]

An interesting thread.

From personal experience, seems to me that car manufaturers had to put alot of $$ into ABS braking systems, and they did so because when cars lock wheels they tend to slide off in unwanted directions / spins and do not steer very well (at least unless the driver is skilled at drifting). This is due to all 4 car brakes being actuated by a single pedal. I very much suspect that the car makers primary goal was to help in steering the car while under max. braking & to help the car brake in a straight line. These goals were most likely more important than shorter braking distances, and I suspect ABS brakes in cars showed up at about the time the ABS systems could equal a non ABS car in braking distance, with the real advantage of being controlable while braking. I remember early car ABS & I don't recall shorter stopping distances, just more controlled stops. In fact early car ABS systems suffered stupid recalls as stupid drivers thought the stopping distances were longer.

Bikes, on the otherhand, have seperate actuaters for each wheel, so the rider can be an ABS computer, and modulate the brakes. The bike manufacturers did studies & determined that the majority of riders were not using maximum brake force (so that they did not suffer the control issues of skidding) & therefore ABS would benefit those riders. Looks to me like the primary engineering goals of cars & bikes re. ABS are actually different, in that cars the goal was control, bike the goal was rider confidence to use maximum force. I don't think the bike makers ever thought that bike ABS would be for expert riders, but in fact a crutch to help less experienced riders use maximum brakes. Only now with mondo computer capability are we seeing ABS systems that could offer expert riders possible help.

My biggest complaint with my 2004 R1150R's servo ABS brakes is actually that I suspect that the rear wheel at least is being released by the ABS computer earlier than needed to prevent lockup. When I rode Allan's non ABS R1150R & reaquainted myself to using non linked rear brakes, seat of the pants for me said I was getting more stopping force from the rear wheel than I do on my ABS R bike. (We were on some serious gravel so I started using the rear brake alot more, if unfortunately for Allan's bike, a lesson learned a bit late as I dropped his bike in an inch or 2 of gravel.) Of course, especially after the drop, found myself reluctant to use maximum front brake, which I atribute to my years on an ABS bike, & therefore, for myself, feel more comfortable being able to grab maximum brakes with the ABS. I guess what I'm saying is the 2004 BMW ABS brakes, IMO, are not sophisticated as would be nice, & I feel are giving up some usable brake force. I don't have a way of knowing how much front brake force is being given up, as I did not push Allan's bike to the limit on its front brake (I did lock the rear up nicely at least once, as having riden dirt bikes that doesn't really bother me much, and thats what I'm basing the ABS rear brakes on). I suspect each generation of brakes is an improvment, and that better/faster computers will allow the brake system to get closer to the edge of lock up.

BTW, I pretty much attribute my droping Allan's bike being due to myself being a re-entry rider being only on my ABS bike (except for dirt bikes, which I like to slide, & my old college day bikes, which I also recall sliding about) with its linked brakes, which have indeed tought me bad habits (like not using the rear brake only when I suspect possible gravel). The HD I rented over the same weekend also gave me fits until I realized that HDs (at least this Dyna Glide Custom with a skinny 19" front wheel) like alot of rear brake usage, which helped greatly lesson front end dive & flex, and then all was fine.

Even at the end of 500 miles on the HD I would still have been much more comfortable on either Allan's R bike or my R bike than on the HD if a true panic stop were required. Riding the HD around I get some idea as to why HD riders talk of "layin er down", as I'm not sure the brake system/forks/frame/tires was a huge amount better at stopping than just sliding a big hunk of iron & rubber along the pavement. I sure never got the "I might go over the bars" feel on the HD that the R brakes can give. Of course I don't want to give the impression the HD was not a hoot to ride. I do think riding the HD over the long haul would make me a more skilled rider as it was much less forgiving than the R bike in both cornering & braking.

[Deans BMW]

I have given ABS a lot of thought, taking the cost of the initial purchase and maintaince out of the equation, in regards of having ABS vs not having, my opinion is as following. This being based on the general populance of bike buyers today, and road bikes to and incuding GS types.

*All cruiser types and Goldwing type bikes, ABS standard.

*All other bikes, like my ST, the S, naked bikes, like speed triples and the like, ABS standard but with the ability to switch it off during the starting sequence as in the upcomming R1200S.

*No servos.

This will solve the situation both Allan and OP have put foward. The only time ABS is a problem is during full on WFO riding as I experienced on Cal Hwy 36 on my ST racing a K1200S or track days. During normal, less attentive and those Oh Shit moments of every day riding, I belive ABS is a good thing.

Just my $.02 worth and 50 years of spirited riding, holy cow, did I say 50 years????????????????????

[Optimus Prime]

Gonna' give ya' two clues, Jason...

To allow you to extricate yourself from the hole you just dug, and I'm only gonna' do that as a courtesy.

1.) Better go back and check on exactly what I said was "irrefutable fact..." - and here's two hints - one, I never said that:

ABS brakes will perform worse, and have longer stopping distances, than non-ABS brakes if the operator is skilled enough to bring the tires to the threshold of lock-up. Any other conclusion is the one that is incorrect, not mine.

Was an irrefutable fact, and two, look here:

http://www.motorcyclistcafe.com/forums/showthread.php?p=10051#post10051

And look for the word "irrefutable" and then read what follows it, then get back to me.


Just a quick note. An opinion can not be incorrect as pointed out above. Thus, your statement that "any other conclusion is incorrect" is a statement of fact. It's not difficult to understand and it pretty much sets the stage for your inability to grasp the actuallity of my argument. As I've stated numerous times. My only contention with you on this subject is your stating your as fact that an ABS system is incapable of stopping a motorcycle as fast as a very skilled rider when you have no real proof as such. Everything else is really outside my contention at this point. :078:

You've stated that ABS can not stop a motorcycle as fast a skilled rider, and I believe that to be false. And exactly which of those links describes the mechanical difference between a motorcycle with ABS and without? I'm pretty sure our contention is with the fact that an ABS system can threshold brake as well as a human rider. Once again you drag a whole slew of non-related items into the discussion in the hopes that the real arguement will get lost in the pile of bullshit.

Nice try.

Once again:
-I am in no way contending that ABS is for racing bikes
-I am in no way saying it is safer or not to have ABS on motorcycles
-I am in no way saying that motorcycles with ABS are superior.

+I am refutting your statement that ABS systems are incapable of stopping a motorcycle as fast as a skilled rider.

Perhaps you can try to address my actual contention instead of continuelly addressing things I'm not even talking about.

[Gord]

...and 50 years of spirited riding, holy cow, did I say 50 years????????????????????

Must be a typo Dean. Unless of course you were riding in the womb! *grin*

[BobFV1]

riding in the womb! *grin*

Another frontier! The ultimate ride! Bring me that lusty wench with fire in her eyes!!! :055:

[Dallara]

Dance, Dance, Dance... Jason, Dance.

First you misquote me by stating I claimed this:

ABS brakes will perform worse, and have longer stopping distances, than non-ABS brakes if the operator is skilled enough to bring the tires to the threshold of lock-up. Any other conclusion is the one that is incorrect, not mine.

was "irrefutable"... And I never said the above statement was "irrefutable". Now you dance away from that and say I have made it as a "statement of fact", which I haven't done either. A conclusion is not a "statement of fact"...

Don't believe me? Look here:

http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&lr=&safe=off&rls=GGLD,GGLD:2004-47,GGLD:en&defl=en&q=define:conclusion&sa=X&oi=glossary_definition&ct=title

Where it shows the various definitions of Conclusion as:




decision: a position or opinion or judgment reached after consideration; "a decision unfavorable to the opposition"; "his conclusion took the evidence into account"; "satisfied with the panel's determination"
an intuitive assumption; "jump to a conclusion"
stopping point: the temporal end; the concluding time; "the stopping point of each round was signaled by a bell"; "the market was up at the finish"; "they were playing better at the close of the season"
ending: event whose occurrence ends something; "his death marked the ending of an era"; "when these final episodes are broadcast it will be the finish of the show"
the proposition arrived at by logical reasoning (such as the proposition that must follow from the major and minor premises of a syllogism)
termination: the act of ending something; "the termination of the agreement"
a final settlement; "the conclusion of a business deal"; "the conclusion of the peace treaty"
the last section of a communication; "in conclusion I want to say..."
decision: the act of making up your mind about something; "the burden of decision was his"; "he drew his conclusions quickly"
In logic, a conclusion is a proposition inferred from premises


Gee, no where in there does it say a word about "statement of fact". Most importantly is the part above about: decision: the act of making up your mind about something...

No doubt about my conclusion then... It is my decision, and I've made up my mind that ABS brakes will perform worse, and have longer stopping distances, than non-ABS brakes if the operator is skilled enough to bring the tires to the threshold of lock-up.

And let us not forget that you have stated I am "wrong" in drawing that conclusion... Just look here:

http://www.motorcyclistcafe.com/forums/showthread.php?p=9979#post9979

Where you said, in response to my statement above:


We've gone over this time and again, modern ABS will be able to equal or better non-ABS stopping distances in 99% of real world driving situations. Here's a quote from the National Highway Traffic Safety and Vehicle Research Center: "For most maneuvers, on most surfaces, ABS-assisted stopping yielded shorter distances than those made with ABS disabled". linky (http://www-nrd.nhtsa.dot.gov/vrtc/ca/capubs/abs51ids.pdf) You may know more about the motorcycle industry in general, but until you've earned your Master's in Mechanical Engineering and have actual industry ABS design time, maybe you should stick your ego back in your pocket and consider that you're wrong on this one.

Now you did provide a link to a study done by, IMHO, an organization that has been proven wrong more times than they have been right, having to do with AUTOMOBILES, not motorcycles. This is where you keep falling off the bus... Whether or not ABS yields equal, or even shorter, stopping distances with automobiles under any conditions is completely, 100% IRRELEVANT to the discussion of ABS on motorcycles. You might as well use the argument of ABS working better on airplanes (which it does under most conditions)... You can do it, but it is still completely and totally irrelevant.

When it comes to motorcycles, a very skilled rider on an equivalent bike without ABS can outstop a bike equipped with ABS. Please note that I said with motorcycles... Not cars, not buses, not trains, not planes... Motorcycles.

At one point you said that cars and bikes were literally identical. They're not. You have repeatedly made that contention, so I pointed you to any number of articles and technical documents done by legendary motorcycle engineers and the foremost university in the world regarding motorcycle handling dynamics... Why? So perhaps you would finally see that cars and motorcycles do handle differently, and under no circumstance can they be termed "identical" other than they exist in the same plane of reality and that they roll on wheels.

As long as you continue to insist that cars and motorcycles are somehow identical, simply because the ABS systems and/or the designs of ABS used on each are somehow identical, then your contentions will be inherently flawed.

You made the statement in your last post of:


You've stated that ABS can not stop a motorcycle as fast a skilled rider, and I believe that to be false.

Now you have heard anecdotal evidence from two riders - Dean Lear and myself - that on certain occasions ABS systems lengthened our stopping distances... With Dean it was when the ABS did not allow him to brake as hard as he desired, and with me it was when I said I had to modulate the ABS on the Yamaha...

Just so you're clear on this point about my being forced to modulate the ABS (and something is pretty f**ked up when you have to modulate a system that is supposedly designed to modulate for you, eh?) on the Yamaha... I am braking for a corner, and I begin hard braking, wanting to bring the tire to the edge of lock-up... Before I get to that point the ABS kicks in, and starts releasing brake pressure, even though I don't want it to. It's threshold is different from mine, so what I have to do is release the brakes an instant and then get in them again to push the brakes past the ABS' threshold again to get the deceleration rate I want... Now each time I have to release some brake pressure just so I can trick the ABS again I am extending my braking distance.

Now, since you are schooled as an engineer, and somehow your training has led you to believe in NHTSA studies regarding cars and ABS, and perhaps because you work in and around car ABS systems, you simply throw the anecdotal evidence aside from two good riders. That's a mistake. It would be like our old Indy car team never listening to the driver and his feedback about how the car handled and simply looking at our Pi telemetry data and telling him to shut up, that he didn't know anything about driving...

That's how arrogant and condescending you're being here...

You have a number of others chime in here on this thread and tell you of their doubts about motorcycle ABS and it's overall effectiveness in many conditions, but you cast that aside, too, as though those opinions and experiences are not worthwhile. That's a mistake, too.

I offered you up the greatest example of all that ABS is still not ready for prime-time on motorcycles, but you discount it as being irrelevant. Believe me, Jason, if ABS could stop as fast, and as consistently, as a very skilled rider it would be being used on road racing motorcycles, period - and especially in the wet. Racing is the ultimate test of any performance related system. If it works better, increases performance, and can lower lap times - even if only in certain conditions - then race engineers would be crawling all over themselves to have ABS. I'm no engineering slouch myself, and I know (and regularly correspond) with some of the highest trained and successful automotive and motorcycle race engineers in the entire world. They know that ABS isn't ready quite yet for motorcycles, but I suppose that though they have been involved in the highest levels of motor vehicle engineering for decades they don't know as much as you, right?

How about one of the engineers that is the head of one of the NVH & Suspensioin engineering departments for General Motors trucks, who also rides motorcycles? He says he wouldn't own a motorcycle with ABS right now - that it's not ready.

So far you have given only one example to support your assertion that a motorcycle equipped with ABS is capable of stopping as fast as a skilled rider - a study done by the NHTSA having to do with cars. That's it. One, and it doesn't even have anything to do with motorcycles.

To support my conclusion that a skilled rider can stop faster without ABS I have offered you thousands and thousands of lap miles on racetracks all over the world in every type of condition. If ABS allowed a rider to stop faster in just one of those conditions then ABS would be on those race bikes.

I have also offered you anecdotal evidence that ABS cannot stop as fast as even skilled street riders on public roadways.

Others have offered you their thoughts on the questionable value of ABS on motorcycles, too.

Further, I have offered you the obvious evidence that ABS is not a performance enhancement... If it was it would be on each and every manufacturer's highest performance bikes. Every other performance enhancement they can find is on them, but yet so far the highest performance models from the manufacturers who make the very highest performance bikes do not see ABS as any improvement to braking performance.

Not one bit of that is "bullshit"... Despite your claims ot the contrary.

Yet none of that is enough, in your eyes, to place even a glimmer of doubt in your mind, or in that report from the NHTSA. So be it, that's your choice.


You said:



-I am in no way contending that ABS is for racing bikes
-I am in no way saying it is safer or not to have ABS on motorcycles
-I am in no way saying that motorcycles with ABS are superior.

+I am refutting your statement that ABS systems are incapable of stopping a motorcycle as fast as a skilled rider.



To which I will respond:

- If ABS were better, or offered any advantage under any condition, then it would be on race bikes.
- You have repeatedly contended that ABS is safer on motorcycles, and you use your NHTSA car study to supposedly *prove* it. By your mere assumption that ABS can stop as fast as a very skilled rider you are implying that it makes riding safer for all riders. But that's just not necessarily true.
- Jason, here and on the other board you have made the contention repeatedly that ABS will allow a bike to stop better than without it, and have even used the qualifier "in most conditions"... Now isn't that essentially contending that an ABS equipped bike is actually superior?

And you also seem to be forgetting what your initial contention actually was... Remember when you said:


We've gone over this time and again, modern ABS will be able to equal or better non-ABS stopping distances in 99% of real world driving situations.

Now maybe you were simply trying to trick us there - by using the word driving" instead of *riding*... But I think the implication you were making there, in context where you said it, was that ABS was equal OR BETTER at stopping a motorcycle 99% of the time. Now isn't that claiming that an ABS-equipped bike is SUPERIOR to a non-ABS equipped bike?

- And you have not been able to successfully refute any contention I have made yet.

Now, go ahead... resort to some more rants and insults... Say I am not intelligent... Call me heavy-handed... Accuse me of throwing haymakers... Say I haven't earned all the scholastic accolades you have... Chastise me for not making automotive ABS my career choice... Call me retarded... Make lame attempts at insults by saying I use caps, bolding, and emoticons too much... Accuse me of having my head in the sand... Call me antiquated... Try and tell me racing motorcycles and riding them on the street are completely unrelated (despite the fact I have actually done both, whereas I don't believe you have)... Belittle my decades of experience in the motorcycle business, as a mechanic, racing on all surfaces, and in Indy Car racing at the highest level... Claim people are dumber somehow for reading what I write... Say my opinions and ideas are trash... State that I am insane, irrational, incoherent, and idiotic... Call me a politician... Allege my expression here is blatant lying... Claim you're going to give me an English lesson even though you don't know the definition of conclusion...

In fact, you can continue to try divert attention from the subject by resorting to fraudulent insults ad infinitum... And it won't change a thing.

I have put more evidence on the table that my conclusion is the correct to draw at this moment in history... Far more than you have placed on there to support your own.

That doesn't mean for a moment you are not entitled to your own, and that it be different.

But what the hell, let's send Freddie Spencer... Or John Koczinski... Or Doug Polen... Or Jeff Ward... an e-mail, or give 'em a phone call, and ask them. I have the contact info for all of them. But wait... Their opinion wouldn't count anyway, nor sway you in any way, right?

Go on... Explode one more time, Jason. It's fun to watch.

Cheers!

Allan (Dallara - NACD, and not dependent on ABS for my livin' or my ridin'!)

[Optimus Prime]

Dance, Dance, Dance... Jason, Dance.

First you misquote me by stating I claimed this:

ABS brakes will perform worse, and have longer stopping distances, than non-ABS brakes if the operator is skilled enough to bring the tires to the threshold of lock-up. Any other conclusion is the one that is incorrect, not mine.

was "irrefutable"... And I never said the above statement was "irrefutable". Now you dance away from that and say I have made it as a "statement of fact", which I haven't done either. A conclusion is not a "statement of fact"...

Don't believe me? Look here:

http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&lr=&safe=off&rls=GGLD,GGLD:2004-47,GGLD:en&defl=en&q=define:conclusion&sa=X&oi=glossary_definition&ct=title

Where it shows the various definitions of Conclusion as:




Gee, no where in there does it say a word about "statement of fact". Most importantly is the part above about: decision: the act of making up your mind about something...

No doubt about my conclusion then... It is my decision, and I've made up my mind that ABS brakes will perform worse, and have longer stopping distances, than non-ABS brakes if the operator is skilled enough to bring the tires to the threshold of lock-up.

And let us not forget that you have stated I am "wrong" in drawing that conclusion... Just look here:

http://www.motorcyclistcafe.com/forums/showthread.php?p=9979#post9979

Where you said, in response to my statement above:


Go on... Explode one more time, Jason. It's fun to watch.

Cheers!

Allan (Dallara - NACD, and not dependent on ABS for my livin' or my ridin'!)
:icon_rolleyes:
:015: :015: :015:

Once again you miss the point early on and it goes down hill from there. You claim your statement is an opinion, yet it is the only correct one. Since an opinion can not be proved right or wrong, it is impossible for an opinion to be the only correct one. Thus it is a statement of fact.

This round and round we're doing is really starting to bore me, and since an observer wisely offered that I should, "Keep up the good work, but only as long as it amuses you!" with regard to this thread. I think I will head this advice and end my involvement here. I've said what I needed to say, and it's fairly obvious neither one of us is going to change positions anytime soon. I'll leave with this.

I may severely dislike your attitude at times, I may disagree with you on some technical topics, but I do respect you and enjoy the level of enthusiasm and general motorcycle nuttiness you bring to this place.

Until our next heated exchange, Good Day.

[BobFV1]

I may severely dislike your attitude at times, I may disagree with you on some technical topics, but I do respect you and enjoy the level of enthusiasm and general motorcycle nuttiness you bring to this place.

Until our next heated exchange, Good Day.

Jason - Your statement reflects that you are a great sport and a true gentleman. Honored to have you in our little online community.

[Dallara]

Gee, Jason...

First you call me an unintelligent, antiquated, heavy handed, blatantly lying, insane, irrational, incoherent, idiotic, inadequately educated egomaniac who needs English lessons and God's mercy on my soul... and then say this:



I may severely dislike your attitude at times, I may disagree with you on some technical topics, but I do respect you and enjoy the level of enthusiasm and general motorcycle nuttiness you bring to this place.



:036: :icon_rolleyes: :036: :icon_rolleyes: :036: :icon_rolleyes: :036: :icon_rolleyes: :036: :icon_rolleyes: :036: :icon_rolleyes: :036: :icon_rolleyes: :036: :icon_rolleyes: :036: :icon_rolleyes: :036: :icon_rolleyes: :036: :icon_rolleyes: :036: :icon_rolleyes: :036: :icon_rolleyes: :036: :icon_rolleyes: :036: :icon_rolleyes: :036: :012: :078: :078: :078:


Please pardon me if express some doubt, make that major incredulity, at the sincerity of your expression there...

You can try and twist and turn my statements to fit your own premise, but that doesn't make your Machiavellian prestidigitation valid. I believe your conclusion incorrect (and inaccurate) because you offer no proof. An NHTSA study on automobiles is not proof.

However, I am always one to agree that we can all disagree. Remember that was one of the reasons this web board was formed for in the first place - so no one could arbitrarily determine who was right and who was wrong.

I have endeavored to avoid tossing insults in place of reasoned discussion in this exchange, and God knows I don't mind a heated one. I, too, welcome disussion, even if it is in disagreement, with you, Jason. Hopefully that next time you can try and do the same.

Now that said...

ABS is for pussies, and the NHTSA is for pussies, and ABS has never saved my life, either, but head checks have... Just like Bob.


:064: :D :064: :D :064: :D :064: :D :064: :D :064: :D :064:


:yahoo: :dance: :yahoo: :dance: :yahoo: :dance: :yahoo: :dance: :yahoo: :dance: :yahoo: :dance: :yahoo:


:031: :006: :031: :006: :031: :006: :031: :006: :031: :006: :031: :006: :031: :006: :031: :006: :031: :006: :031: :006: :031: :006: :031:



Cheers!

Allan (Dallara - NACD)

ps. - And oh, I almost forgot... BMW's are becoming seriously overpriced...

[Optimus Prime]

I have endeavored to avoid tossing insults in place of reasoned discussion in this exchange, and God knows I don't mind a heated one. I, too, welcome disussion, even if it is in disagreement, with you, Jason. Hopefully that next time you can try and do the same.

Now that said...

Cheers!

Allan (Dallara - NACD)
C'mon man. You started severely mocking me in every thread you posted on for a time there. Perhaps you don't consider that insulting, but it was. I'm not in anyway trying to imply I didn't say things I would probably take back were I in a calmer mood, but don't act like you're rear end smells like roses in this deal.

:058:

[Dallara]

Wow, Jason...

I was calm through the entire discussion. My apologies if you got angry and all worked up.

And if my attempts to poke a little fun, push a couple of your buttons, and have a few laughs about this thread in others somehow insulted you... Well, then you have my apology there, too. I had no idea you were that thin-skinned, but I will keep it in mind in the future.

And I do try and wash my derriere quite frequently in order to keep it kissingly sweet and smelling like roses...


:rose: :rose: :rose: :rose: :rose: :rose: :rose: :rose: :rose: :rose: :rose: :rose: :rose: :rose: :rose: :rose: :rose: :rose: :rose: :rose: :rose: :rose: :rose:


:056: :056: :056: :056: :056: :056: :056: :056: :056: :056: :056: :056: :056: :056: :056:


:eusa_dance: :eusa_dance: :eusa_dance: :eusa_dance: :eusa_dance: :eusa_dance: :eusa_dance: :eusa_dance: :eusa_dance: :eusa_dance: :eusa_dance: :eusa_dance: :eusa_dance: :eusa_dance: :eusa_dance: :eusa_dance: :eusa_dance: :eusa_dance: :eusa_dance: :eusa_dance:


Cheers!

Allan (Dallara - NACD, and ABS and the NHTSA are still for pussies)

[Tipstall]

Lets ban both of them and than we should lock this thread or just delete it.

Ken

[Dallara]

Ken said...



Lets ban both of them and than we should lock this thread or just delete it.


NOW THAT'S FUNNY!

:036: :036: :036: :036: :036: :036: :036: :036:

Cheers!

Allan (Dallara - NACD, and ABS and the NHTSA are still for pussies!)

[Optimus Prime]

Wow, Jason...

I was calm through the entire discussion. My apologies if you got angry and all worked up.

And if my attempts to poke a little fun, push a couple of your buttons, and have a few laughs about this thread in others somehow insulted you... Well, then you have my apology there, too. I had no idea you were that thin-skinned, but I will keep it in mind in the future.

And I do try and wash my derriere quite frequently in order to keep it kissingly sweet and smelling like roses...


:rose: :rose: :rose: :rose: :rose: :rose: :rose: :rose: :rose: :rose: :rose: :rose: :rose: :rose: :rose: :rose: :rose: :rose: :rose: :rose: :rose: :rose: :rose:


:056: :056: :056: :056: :056: :056: :056: :056: :056: :056: :056: :056: :056: :056: :056:


:eusa_dance: :eusa_dance: :eusa_dance: :eusa_dance: :eusa_dance: :eusa_dance: :eusa_dance: :eusa_dance: :eusa_dance: :eusa_dance: :eusa_dance: :eusa_dance: :eusa_dance: :eusa_dance: :eusa_dance: :eusa_dance: :eusa_dance: :eusa_dance: :eusa_dance: :eusa_dance:


Cheers!

Allan (Dallara - NACD, and ABS and the NHTSA are still for pussies)
You just can't stop yourself can you?

At least when I insult someone, I have the balls to freely admit it and not hide behind, "[just] my attempts to poke a little fun, push a couple of your buttons". And then for you to offer up an apology only to twist it into an insult by saying, "I had no idea you were that thin-skinned", is just another measure of the man as my Grandpa would say. :009:

A little advice. Never ruin an apology with an excuse, excuses indicate lack of true remorse. For true remorse is never just a regret over consequence; it is a regret over motive.

I apologize for the insults I directed at you, I should not have done so for any reasons.

Good Day.

[Dallara]

Geez...

As the kids these days say, Jason... Whatever!

You prove my case for me, so keep your advice.

Sheese!

Allan (Dallara - NACD)

[Sir Limpsalot]

Can I relate the following little tale? May not be relevant as it took place a few years back and the technology has improved since.
The Uk BMW club were on a weekend away in Wales. One of their number, a guy called Mike Peach, had a K100RS with ABS.
"How good is the ABS?" he was asked. "I'll show you" he said. So he sets off across the Hotel car park, which was all slippery with wet moss between it's cobble stones (!). No helmet, no gloves, his jacket flying behind him like Batmans cape he runs full tilt at the Hotel wall. He slams the brakes on, the wheels lock, release, lock, release. The forks pogo up and down. He stops with an inch to spare.
An audible sigh of relief from the onlookers!
"That ABS is really excellent" says one.
"Not really" says Mike "watch this"
Again he screams across the car park towards the wall. This time he dissables the ABS by flipping the kill switch.
He stops smoothly, with one minor "chirp" from his rear tyre, with six feet to spare.
"Who want's a go?" he asks.
As one the onlookers say "Fuck off!"
Now I'm not taking sides here, and as I said ABS has improved since those early efforts, but it's a great little tale you must admit. Every word is true, I promise.
Si

[BobFV1]

Lets ban both of them and than we should lock this thread or just delete it.

Ken

Ken - What fun would that be?

I predict this thread dies on it's own within 36 hours...

[Optimus Prime]

Can I relate the following little tale? May not be relevant as it took place a few years back and the technology has improved since.
The Uk BMW club were on a weekend away in Wales. One of their number, a guy called Mike Peach, had a K100RS with ABS.
"How good is the ABS?" he was asked. "I'll show you" he said. So he sets off across the Hotel car park, which was all slippery with wet moss between it's cobble stones (!). No helmet, no gloves, his jacket flying behind him like Batmans cape he runs full tilt at the Hotel wall. He slams the brakes on, the wheels lock, release, lock, release. The forks pogo up and down. He stops with an inch to spare.
An audible sigh of relief from the onlookers!
"That ABS is really excellent" says one.
"Not really" says Mike "watch this"
Again he screams across the car park towards the wall. This time he dissables the ABS by flipping the kill switch.
He stops smoothly, with one minor "chirp" from his rear tyre, with six feet to spare.
"Who want's a go?" he asks.
As one the onlookers say "Fuck off!"
Now I'm not taking sides here, and as I said ABS has improved since those early efforts, but it's a great little tale you must admit. Every word is true, I promise.
Si

Very true. There was a motorcycle study done back in the early 90's, I believe, that used the K100RS. It did take longer to stop on average with ABS than without. The newer systems have improved. Also, I've been looking for a Cycle world article from several years back that had a test which concluded that ABS stopped faster than all but their most skilled rider/s (?) in dry conditions. In the wet ABS trumped even their top riders, IIRC. I believe this was at least 2 ABS generations ago. I don't know of any study that has been done since then on motorcycles.

[Dallara]

Wow, Bob...

That's a heck of an article at:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anti-lock_braking_system


What with statements in it like:



An alert skilled driver without ABS should be able, through the use of techniques like cadence braking (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cadence_braking) or threshold braking (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Threshold_braking), to match or improve on the performance of a typical driver with an ABS-equipped vehicle.


And:



In gravel and snow, ABS tends to increase braking distances.


And:



Availability of ABS should not deter drivers from learning to master cadence braking.


And:



A June 1999 NHTSA (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/National_Highway_Traffic_Safety_Administration) study found that ABS increased stopping distances on loose gravel by an average of 22%


Now I trust the NHTSA about as much as I do Hillary Clinton, but hey, some people put a lot of credence in what they say...

But the article goes on to say:



As noted above, maximum braking effect is achieved with the wheels on the limit of friction, whereas ABS works by releasing the brakes as the wheels break traction, so a skilled driver should be able to exceed the braking performance of an ABS system.


And:



When activated, the ABS causes the brake pedal to pulse noticeably. As most drivers rarely or never brake hard enough to cause brake lockup, and a significant number rarely bother to read the car's manual, this may not be discovered until an emergency. When drivers do encounter an emergency that causes them to brake hard and thus encounter this pulsing for the first time, many are believed to reduce pedal pressure and thus lengthen braking distances, contributing to a higher level of accidents than the superior emergency stopping capabilities of ABS would otherwise promise.


And:



It is worth noting that the heavier a vehicle is, the more it will benefit from ABS. This is particularly true of vehicles with less-sophisticated hydraulic braking systems where fine control is not as easy as with the more developed braking systems. Conversely, lighter vehicles, especially sports cars with highly-developed braking systems without ABS can outbrake comparable vehicles even with ABS.



Motorsicles are pretty damn light compared to them thar' cars, now ain't they?

And:



ABS brakes are the subject of some widely-cited experiments in support of risk compensation (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Risk_compensation) theory, which support the view that drivers adapt to the safety benefit of ABS by driving more aggressively.
The two major examples are from Munich and Oslo. In both cases taxi drivers in mixed fleets were found to exhibit greater risk-taking when driving cars equipped with ABS, with the result that collision rates between ABS and non ABS cars were not significantly different.



Of course, it's just an article, and by who knows who... And I am not supporting it nor citing it as the gospel of ABS.

Just noting that it is an interesting article and presents some pretty intriguing points, now doesn't it?

Thanks, Bob!

Cheers!

Allan (Dallara - NACD, except probably in Peoria)

[Gord]

I predict this thread dies on it's own within 36 hours...

...and if it should, we will need to go back to Page 3 for entertainment!!!

I for one am glad that Allan and Jason can have a go at each other without a bunch of onlookers screaming for them to stop just in case someone gets offended or some lurker think ill of us.

Have either of them convinced me one way or the other? Not really. I wanted ABS when I started riding and I was glad to have had it. It might have been an expensive "insurance policy" for me, but with my skill level at the time, I think it helped me with my confidence. I would likely forgo it now. So I am neither for, nor against ABS. It has its place - it just doesn't need to be every place. I think that is the only correct opinion!!!!! *grin*

[BobFV1]

Wow, Bob...

That's a heck of an article at:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anti-lock_braking_system


Yes I thought so too...

[supermotoC]

I think ABS is the perfect thing when you don't have it, and absolutely the worst when you have it. Otherwise, I'm on the fence.
I think.
no, wait...
It's terrible for stoppies, burnouts, and backing into corners. It's great for resale value. It's miserable for sliding into the garage sideways & parking pointing out the way you came in. If I was a road dog tourer, and rode in the rain often, I would ABSolutlely have it. Switchable. I wouldn't want it on my trials bike or my Trek Madone SL. It's cool on my 540iT Sport. Terrible on my Maine Coon.

[socalrob]

The Big Bend Fall ride is coming up. We need to get an ABS R1150R & a non ABS R1150r, & have a variety of riders (both expert & intermediate)perform emergency stops. I'll bring a little hand held distance lazer & some chalk, & volunteer my R1150R ABS bike. Allan, maybe you can get Wade to bring your R1150R non ABS bike. Of course, hehe, the non ABS bike may be a bit more likely to hit the ground. Let the games begin.

Of course the results will only apply to that generation of ABS brakes. A new generation may be better.

[arkline]

I submit that the operational concept that is under-emphasized in the ABS vs. non-ABS argument is "skilled" driver/rider. I'm out on the grid with mostly cars twice a day and I'm not sure I'd apply the epithet "skilled" to very many of them. In fact, as a guy who has been riding bikes off'n'on for forty plus years, I really don't feel that I am that highly skilled as a rider myself. But I can tell you that if ABS in cars gives the driver more control in a panic situation, I am all for that. Maybe they'll miss my sorry hindquarters by a smidge.

I think the advent of ABS on bikes is the result of the fact that disk brakes are so good now. Some years ago you'd have been hard pressed to lock up the front on a single disk, single pad Lockheed disk on a Norton (though the rear drum certainly could stop the wheel in the rain). And before that when drums were the rule front and back, there was even less chance, in normal street riding, that you'd reach the threshold of traction by braking. Oh, yeah, and you weren't supposed to use the front anyway - throw you over the bars, it will.

I'd be willing to predict that at some point in the not too distant future, the compute power of your average street bike will exceed what's on your desktop right now. And when that happens, there will be this overwhelming urge to put those cycles to use - modulating the brakes, feathering the clutch, leaning out the mixture, choosing what gear you should be in, figuriing out lean angle and traction, maybe even counter-steer for you. And, at some point, the programming will get good enough it won't get in your way, it will become second nature.

[Dallara]

Bob said... (regarding my comments about the Wikipedia ABS article being interesting)


Yes I thought so too...


Wonder what Jason thinks about it?

And of course there was this article from some time back:

http://www.ibmwr.org/prodreview/abstests.html

Wouldn't want anybody that's real pro-ABS to look at those dry pavement numbers... And who'da thunk Yamaha's old ABS system could ever have been viewed as superior to BMW's??? And I am glad it does mention ABS inherent issues when the bike is leaned over...


I also like what news.motorcycle.com had to say when a reader asked them about the pros and cons of motorcycle ABS ( http://news.motorcycle.com/article.motml?thold=-1&mode=flat&order=0&sid=3055 ):




ABS lets go of the brakes for you. This is good if you're not smooth and "grab a handfull." Conversely, this can be a bad thing if you know what you're doing -- and result in longer stopping distances.

Think of a big barge going down the river. Before it gets to a bend in the river, what does it do? Turns sideways before the turn, and uses the engine to push it in the direction the driver wants to go. Dirtbikers do this all the time, you see roadracers doing this in dramatic form (although it's easily done with engine decel when you're hard on the front brakes, but you get the idea...) and skilled street riders can do this too without ABS.
If you're at maximum lateral loading on the tire, ABS won't stop you from washing out the front end.
All that said, if you just want to grab the brakes in a straight line and never worry about it, it's a great thing, and so many people like it. As a side note, ABS can be more effective in automobiles because you don't have front/rear control, and so it can "let go" of the front wheels if they're sliding and the rears aren't.




And then there were all the people there who commented on that ABS assessment afterward, with things like (and no, below are not all the responses, but those below are representative of many):




MO pretty much answered your question. If you want to be able to grab a handful and stop and not have to learn the nuances of non-abs motorcycle braking (and have your arse saved in a panic situation when all training and visions of being Rossi on the brakes goes out the door), go for it. If you plan on developing more sport oriented riding skills then manual braking is the answer. IMO, ABS is a good option for the average rider. For the rider who has the time and desire to practice the more intricate details of braking then ABS isn’t as desirable. As with most motorcycle debates, first make an accurate assessment of your riding style and needs and then make your decision.
************************************************** ******
I'm old enough to know I'm conservative, but that's after 30 years of constant riding in Australian conditions and still being alive. ABS would have saved one or two frank and intimate rendezvous with the bitumen but it was common sense and experience that saved me all the other times.

A bike with ABS is better than a bike without. A rider with maturity, training and a strong sense of self-preservation is better still.
************************************************** ******
While it is true that ABS will stop you quicker in conditions where traction is marginal, it is also true that ABS may give you a false sense of security, and you may find yourself going faster than the poor conditions might otherwise dictate. I have owned many motorcycles, none of which had ABS, and have managed to survive. My advice to you would be to get a dirt bike, and practice as much as possible in low traction conditions. You will not only learn how to instinctively control your bike during those unexpected times when your tires suddenly lose their grip, but you will also learn to SLOW DOWN when experience tells you that traction conditions have deteriorated.
************************************************** *******
The shortest stopping distances are executed when the brakes are braking just short of locking up. Expert riders on dry pavement with a non-ABS bike "may" be able to better the stopping distances of an ABS equipped bike. However, once the pavement is at less than ideal conditions, it's no contest, ABS wins every time.

That being said, you should still practice your braking skills so that you can make maximum stops without engaging the ABS (it shouldn't become a crutch to good braking skills). Learn to feel your brakes. And the better your front tire, the shorter you'll be able to stop regardless of whether you have ABS or not.
************************************************** *******
I think a non-linked, non-power assisted ABS would be great on a bike. My only experiance with M/C ABS was on an '02 R1150RT and I didn't care for it at all. It seemed to me that I couldn't modulate or trail brake like I usually do. I did try a couple of practice panic stops in the wet and dry and in those situations the ABS was a definate plus with good controllable straight line stops everytime. However the other 99% of the time I felt the set-up was intrusive and didn't really fit my riding style. That coupled with the surging and overall top heavy feel of the bike made it not much fun.
************************************************** *******
Expert roadracers oftentimes trail brake right to the apex of a corner and then actually turn the bike using the throttle. These are not recommended riding strategies for the road. With this in mind, I doubt that racers would allow themselves to have to contend with ABS on a race bike, so it's doubtful we'll see it on race-replicas.
************************************************** *******
It's obviously a personal choice, at least at this point. Hopefully it will not be the only choice any time soon. Will traction control be next?

No thanks for me. I prefer less complexity, weight and expense, and I like being able to service my own bike. ************************************************** *******




And the "Motorcycle Online" discussion also mentions "Cycle World's" Peter Egan stating his next bike won't have ABS...


And proponents of BMW ABS systems in particular don't want to look at this page:

http://arch.home.texas.net/bmw/sb.html

There you will find quotes from people like "Cycle World's" David Edwards like:



"...I just wish the juiced brakes were tailored more to skilled, experienced riders (which in my travels, defines most BMW owners) instead of first-time buyers who don't even know the basics of motorcycling. At the very least, let us opt for the "partial" system, giving back sole control of the rear brake..."
"...BMW calls its "full" Integral ABS, "Easily the most responsive, foolproof braking system ever put on a motorcycle." Boy, howdy!, to the first claim. About the second, all I can say is be careful when you start making motorcycles for fools..."




There you will also find some interesting quotes from "Motorcyclist" magazine regarding the brakes on a BMW K-1200-GT...


"...The GT's brakes were also less than helpful. BMW's servo-assisted system is, we believe, a prime example of misguided technology creating more problems than it solves, muddling the connection between rider and road. It makes it simply impossible to be subtle about your braking The first few ounces of pressure on the hand lever produce no braking force at all, and the next ounce suddenly gives you way too much. If the Yamaha's brakes are a scalpel, the BMW's are a jackhammer. The GT will stop very hard in a straight line, but its unpredictable feel when leaned over tells your right hand to just say no. All semblance of feel and feedback are gone, with no gain to compensate. Motorcycles do not need power brakes, a fact you can confirm with a five-minute ride on a Gold Wing, or by hopping off the BMW and on either the Honda or the Yamaha..."

It also mentions MCN's scare with a R-1200-GS's ABS brakes...



"...Although BMW Santa Cruz came to our rescue up north, finding a failed wheel sensor, the Integral power-assisted brakes gave us a good scare prior to the fix.
Although we'd been led to believe that a BMW's brakes would work normally without operational ABS, on one occasion, the brakes simply weren't there, the lever coming back to the handlebar just the way the bike reacts with the ignition off. Luckily, this happened at a remote intersection, without traffic or turning. The rider quickly grabbed again, and this time, the brakes returned, locking the tires momentarily before he regained composure. It may well be that the Integral (power-assisted) ABS is capable of such shenanigans, while the older non-boosted ABS was not.
That one instance was enough to make the group of us ride the last 60 miles or so to Monterey all pretending we had no brakes, using careful acceleration to limit momentum and downshifting to use engine braking to manage the many turns...it was slow going, but a safer alternative than risking another failure in different conditions."
"...While I am a fan of both the GS's diet plan and improved engine performance, I cannot give a thumbs up to the ABS system. The whirring of the servos each time the brake lever is pulled belies its dependence on non-mechanical systems. The fact that I experienced sudden brake loss on one occasion doesn't instill confidence either, regardless of of the effectiveness of the ABS system when functioning properly. Unfortunately, the reservations I have with regards to the brakes really temper my enthusiasm for the bike, and would force me to delay any purchase decision until BMW improves the failsafe controls on the stoppers."




And here was an interesting statement made by the guys at MCN...


"Note, many people think that ABS will reduce your braking distance. This is NOT true. In some instances it will even INCREASE your stopping distance! What it does do is to allow you to steer the bike or cage while applying maximum braking effort."




Oh, well...

I just wish I could have gotten my new Yamaha FJR without ABS. However, disabling it may be easier than I originally thought. I'm still researching it, but it might be easy as pie, easily reversible for when I sell it, and not effect anything else about the braking system at all... COOL!

Cheers!

Allan (Dallara - NACD)

[Bones]

......wait.....you're sellling the FJR?

[TorqueMonsterMT-01]

Chirp