Problems with idle and stuff

[Promethean]

Hi guys,
There are a couple of issues with my 2003 R1150R. I hope the collective wisdom of the cafe can help me diagnose and correct them.

The bike stalls at traffic lights when its 60F outside and needs the idle lever to keep it alive. There's no problem when I'm at higher speeds. On warmer days when it's 85F+, the bike doesn't stall at lights but will idle rough at 600 RPMs. I haven't performed a valve adjustment or throttle body sync. And I was wondering what the issue might be.

The other problem is that the engine cut out on me when I was on the highway doing 50 MPH. I was able to restart it after pulling the clutch in but it has happened 2 or 3 times and that's often enough to make me nervous. Don't want this happening in a high traffic situation like Chicago or Manhattan.......or worse....the Capitol Beltway near DC.

I'd appreciate any insight or information you can send my way.

Thank you.

[panthercity]

I'd adjust the valves (cold) then do the TBB. If that doesn't solve the idle problem, look at the TPS adjustment.

As for the cutting out at speed, Sounds electrical and I'm NO help with magic smoke.

[DarthRider]

I'm no real mechanic and I am a fan of "plucking the low-hanging fruit".
First, adjust the idle up to 11 or 1200 RPM, 600 is way too low. The "poor man's version" of that is just leave the fast idle lever in the "on" position. It's not a "choke", just a fast idle, as you said, won't hurt a thing as long as it is not idling way too fast.
Dose the gas with a quarter of a can of SeaFoam. This might only be a "chicken soup" deal in this instance (can't hurt/might help) but it will remove any condensed moisture from the fuel system, clean the injectors & throttle bodies, etc. It's not magic cure-all but it does some things very well.

Bob very well be right, but I've noticed something about the guys who know what they're doing...they always start with the harder stuff!
A too-low idle and crap in the fuel system can cause some of your symptoms. SeaFoam can not cure mechanical maladjustments and is no substitute for a good tune, but it might help with this. In any event, I'd recommend a lighter (as recommended) dose of SeaFoam on a regular basis.
Good luck...let us know what happens!

PS - How old is the gas? How many miles on the plugs?

[Promethean]

Will do. I've printed off the valve adjustment instructions and also those for the TB adjustment. Will have to look for TPS.


I'd adjust the valves (cold) then do the TBB. If that doesn't solve the idle problem, look at the TPS adjustment.

As for the cutting out at speed, Sounds electrical and I'm NO help with magic smoke.

I already went through a tankful of gas infused with SeaFoam and it didn't seem to help. Some online research seems to point to an air leak somewhere but I'd rather do the Valve adjustment and TB Sync before I attempt any other tweaks.

Thanks guys.


I'm no real mechanic and I am a fan of "plucking the low-hanging fruit".
First, adjust the idle up to 11 or 1200 RPM, 600 is way too low. The "poor man's version" of that is just leave the fast idle lever in the "on" position. It's not a "choke", just a fast idle, as you said, won't hurt a thing as long as it is not idling way too fast.
Dose the gas with a quarter of a can of SeaFoam. This might only be a "chicken soup" deal in this instance (can't hurt/might help) but it will remove any condensed moisture from the fuel system, clean the injectors & throttle bodies, etc. It's not magic cure-all but it does some things very well.

Bob very well be right, but I've noticed something about the guys who know what they're doing...they always start with the harder stuff!
A too-low idle and crap in the fuel system can cause some of your symptoms. SeaFoam can not cure mechanical maladjustments and is no substitute for a good tune, but it might help with this. In any event, I'd recommend a lighter (as recommended) dose of SeaFoam on a regular basis.
Good luck...let us know what happens!

PS - How old is the gas? How many miles on the plugs?

[Bill]

You might try the tried and proven Italian tuneup .. here in Texas we might say it is a Texas tune up.
Usually works

[panthercity]

Got this off the IBMWR list a hundred years ago. Used it on R1100 and R1150s:



Setting the Throttle Position Sensor and Throttle Screws

Stephen Karlan (Dali Meeow)
Written for 1994-98 R850 and R1100 BMWs
and reviewed by Rob Lentini - roblentini@cox.net
I. The Problems.

Surging -- A condition of increasing and decreasing power, cycling back and forth, when the throttle is held absolutely steady at a fixed rpm (such as 3,500 rpm while using a throttle lock, tape or rock-solid hand). The electronic control system is hunting (up and down) for the correct air/fuel mixture and the engine is not responding to throttle input but to electronic sensors.

To minimize surging, the throttle plate screws (two) and the Throttle Position Sensor (one TPS on the bike) are adjusted using a voltmeter. (There can be other factors, but an incorrectly set TPS is the 95% problem.)

Vibration -- Shaking or oscillating. When the throttle is held in a fixed position, the vibration is constant and unchanging. It may vibrate more at one throttle opening (rpm) than at another; i.e. it may vibrate more at idle (or is more noticeable at idle) than at 3500 rpm.

To minimize vibration, the throttle bodies (one for each cylinder on each side of the bike) are balanced using mercury columns.

Ensure that the valves have proper clearances before starting any fine tuning and that plugs and wires are operating correctly. Instructions on performing a valve adjustment can be found in the Technical Information section at this web site under Adjusting Valves and Rocker Arms, or by clicking on the words "Adjusting Valves".
II. The Approach.

It is quite possible that a bike has both a surging (throttle plate screws and TPS) and a vibration (throttle body) problem. With these instructions, you will address the surging and vibration problems in that order. If you do not have a surging problem, DO NOT adjust your TPS ! If you do not have a surging problem, DO NOT adjust your TPS ! If you are not sure about your problem, then do not continue with these instructions and, instead, balance the throttle bodies using "Throttle Body Balance for Dummies". In fact, I strongly recommend that you balance the throttle bodies at least twice before you use the instructions in this article. Throttle body balancing is relatively fast and easy to accomplish and, you will need to balance the throttle bodies as part of setting the throttle plate screws and TPS.

In addition to surge and vibration, some bikes will present an idle anomaly in which the idle will be too high. The idle problem, which is nothing more than an idle in excess of 1200 rpm, occurs most frequently on GS and R models after resetting the throttle plate screws and the TPS. This problem is addressed at the end of the TPS adjustment instructions. Idle speed also is addressed in "Throttle Body Balance for Dummies" if you are only performing a throttle body balance.

The basic knowledge about adjusting the TPS and basic throttle settings to obtain optimal engine response is the work of Rob Lentini; his Zero=Zero article appeared in MOA's Owners News in 1997 and is on the Internet BMW site.

This article does not present significant or new procedures, it has been written for newbies and simply goes into greater detail. It was designed to help you find the right part to tweak. These instructions assume that you know almost nothing about the bike, where parts are located, or how it functions. The priority here is to help you diagnose and adjust the bike, not engineering or theory. You may need detailed instructions the first time you do the adjustment; subsequent adjustment will require much less information. If you run into problems, contact the author by private eMail or at (305)255-1010. For another perspective on setting the TPS, look at Rob Lentini's original work which has already been cited.
III. How to set the TPS on the R850 and R1100

WARNING: BMW does not approve of this procedure. BMW warns that "The sealed stop screws on the throttles must not be tampered with, or else the basic idle flow setting will have to be reset by the manufacturer." There is a Throttle Position Sensor article by Bob Gorman and an early Throttle Position Sensor article by Rob Lentini that present ways to set the TPS without resetting the throttle stop screws. These do not violate the BMW warning and these may be used before resorting to this procedure. The author of this article assumes no liability for any damage or injury to you or your bike caused by any errors or omissions.

Read through these instructions, and also "Balancing Throttle Bodies", before you pick up a wrench or screwdriver. Find the parts before you start. This will save work and cursing time.

Begin with a cold engine and do not start the engine until after the TPS has been adjusted. Place bike on center stand with side stand retracted. You will need two special tools, a digital volt meter (DVM) for setting the TPS, and a method of measuring vacuum (either a set of mercury manometers, also called carb stix or mercury columns, or an electronic Twin-Max, both of which are used to correctly adjust the throttle bodies.

12 Steps to Throttle Set Screw / TPS Adjustment

Loosen throttle cable (left side)
Loosen throttle body crossover synch cable (right side)
Back out the left throttle plate stop screw (underneath left side)
Attach DVM to red-white TPS wire #1 (rear) - ignition on
Move TPS to obtain near-zero reading (.006 volts) and lock TPS
Move left throttle plate stop screw to obtain .370 volts and lock screw
Large brass bypass screws in, bike on, warm engine, rough idle expected
Turn the large brass bypass screws out in 1/4 increments if bike will not
idle; attach carb stix
Set right throttle plate stop screw using carb stix
Reduce TPS in increments of 0.020 if idle exceeds 1100-1200 rpm
Reset throttle cable (left side) to .5 mm free play
Perform the "Throttle Body Synch for Dummies".

Each of the 12 steps above is explained below, with a detailed explanation of how to find and adjust the correct part. All of the information on Step 1 will follow the Step 1 heading.

Step 1. Loosen throttle cable (left side) Here are four (A-D) ways to find the throttle cable. Use all of these the first time you use these instructions to ensure that you have the correct part.

(A) Starting at the front edge of the seat, if you were to hang a string onto the left side of the bike, it would contact the black plastic air intake duct (2 1/4 inch diameter tube) about 11 to 13 inches down. Follow this black plastic duct or tube forward to where it is attached to a metal tube or duct that is 3 1/2 inches long with plastic and metal parts all over it. Everything related to the TPS adjustment is attached to this metal duct, or a similar metal duct in the right side. For our purposes, the metal duct has a top and bottom area, an outside and an inside area (close to the body of the bike). There is a bracket on the inside area where two cables are vertically attached. The cable closest to the metal duct (forward outside) is the throttle cable.

(B) Starting at the rear of the large finned metal engine cylinder that sticks out on the left side, the throttle cable is approximately two inches to the rear of this location and close to the engine.

(C) The throttle cable can be generally located by first locating two plug-type wires on the top of the metal duct, and from this point look down and between the metal duct and the bike.

(D) There is an easily removable (and frequently lost or missing) three-sided plastic cover with a round bottom that clips onto the top front area of the metal duct. This plastic cover comes off by pulling it upward and toward the front of the bike. Take this plastic cover off (no tools necessary) and the throttle cable is close to the location where the inside of the plastic contacted the metal duct.

Now that you have located the general area of the throttle cable, by careful inspection you will see that two cables come into the same area and mount on one metal bracket or metal plate located on the inside area of metal duct. [On 1997 models there is one cable only, the throttle cable. Disregard the references to other cables.] The cable that is the furthest from the engine is the throttle cable (still forward outside). To make certain you have the correct cable, move the throttle on the right handlebar and this should move the throttle cable that you have identified on the left side. (You may need another person to move the throttle on the right side of the bike while you watch the cable on the left side.) If the left side cable does not move, you have not located the throttle cable. Move the throttle on the handlebar and look on the left side for a moving cable that matches the information above. Now check the cable next to the throttle cable by moving the choke lever on the left handlebar and watch the choke cable move; do no loosen the choke cable. There is a third cable to the rear of these two which is the crossover synch cable; this is on its own mount and need not be loosened or adjusted in any way.

If you are not certain you have found the throttle cable, either find another BMW rider with an R bike and ask for help finding it, or go pester your local mechanic.

This is a tight area in which to work and so you will remove the three-sided plastic cover with the round bottom that mounts on the gas intake area. There are two plugs on top of the metal duct that were covered by the three-side plastic piece you have removed; these are fuel injection controls. The front plug of the two may be removed by depressing (press in) on the wire clip on the plug and then lifting the plug from its mounting. After removing both the three-sided plastic cover and the fuel injection plug, there will be more room in which to work.

You are now ready to loosen the throttle cable, which was the whole purpose in finding this cable. You must loosen the lock nut, the six-sided nut that sits on top of the bracket, with a small wrench (counterclockwise). There is a metal piece that is threaded into the lock nut which can now be loosed with your fingers by turning it in a clockwise direction. Loosen the lock nut as needed so the cable is loose. Check this by twisting the throttle on the handlebar; you must be able to give at least a 45-degree turn on the throttle and see that the throttle cable is loose. Now depress (squeeze) the wire clip on the fuel injection front plug and replace the plug you previously removed.

Step 2. Loosen throttle body crossover synch cable (right side) After loosening the throttle cable, it's time to move on and to look at the right side of the bike. Go to the same general area on the right side as you were examining on the left. There are fewer controls and only one cable. Here are two ways (A, B) to find the right crossover synch cable.

(A) There is a metal 2 1/4 inch diameter tube (similar to the left side but with fewer black plastic or cable items attached to it) that also continues into the large finned cylinder (as it does on the left side). There also may be a three-sided plastic guard with a round bottom if you have an RS or R (not on the GS or RT, and not there if it has been lost). From the metal tube area, look into the side of the bike to see a single cable mounted on a metal bracket; it is the only cable in the area.

(B) The right crossover synch cable is located about two inches from the rear of the large finned cylinder and close to the engine.

First remove the three-sided plastic cover with the round bottom if there is one. Next loosen the lock nut that is located near the top of the bracket (turn counter clockwise). After the lock nut is loose you can loosen the cable by screwing (clockwise) the metal piece that is above the lock nut. Screw until the cable is loose. The loose cable can be seen below the metal bracket.

Step 3. Back out the left throttle plate stop screw (underneath left side) It's now time to return to the left side of the bike. When the throttle on the handlebar is twisted, it not only moved the cable you have now loosened, it also moved a metal flange piece that comes in contact with a metal plate. There are two ways to find this metal flange piece and the left throttle plate area.

(A) Check instructions for Step 4 and find the TPS. If there were an imaginary line that passed through the right TPS screw and then continued through the round metal body on which the TPS is mounted, that line would intersect the left throttle plate stop screw. When you move the throttle on the handlebar you also are moving the metal flange piece that contacts the left throttle plate stop screw.

(B) The metal throttle flange is located near the inside of the metal 2 1/4-inch diameter tube and is very low and near the inside of the tube. The easiest way to see this is to put your head on the ground just forward of the rear tire and to look up. This is an awkward position but the metal flange piece is easy to touch. The screw, that limits how far it can close, is located on a metal plate above the flange. This screw determines the distance between the flange and the throttle plate. [If you see an adjustment screw on a long arm, this is related to the throttle advance (adjusts the "choke"); this is NOT the screw you are looking for.]

Now that you have found the flange and screw, you now must figure out how to adjust the screw. Loosen the silver metal clamp that secures the black plastic air intake hose to the metal throttle body and rotate the clamp for a more unobstructed working area; remove the hose if necessary. Remove (cut off) the plastic cable tie that secures a wire if it obstructs the working area. Replace the cable tie, hose and clamp when finished with the throttle plate screw adjustment. The physical manipulation that is described in the next paragraph (especially on RS models) is a challenge to your stamina and will take time, patience and any odd-ball tool that works. If you find a tool that makes this easy, please please please contact this author with your hint.

Your job is to loosen the 10 mm lock nut (counterclockwise) using a small wrench, and then loosen the 8 mm stop screw (counterclockwise) using a wrench or a screwdriver so that the metal flange piece does not contact the screw at all. If you loosen the screw a few turns you should be able to see a gap between the end of the screw and the metal flange piece. You must see a gap, which means the left throttle is closed. There must be a gap !

Step 4. Attach DVM to red-white TPS wire #1 (rear) - ignition on The TPS is mounted on the outside of the left 2 1/4 inch metal tube you have been working around; it is a black flat plastic cover that measures 2 1/2 inches wide x 2 inches high with the word Bosch imprinted on it. This cover is attached by two allen-head screws through the cover and the allen-head screws describe a horizontal line.

There is a prong attached to the bottom of the TPS, and a rubber boot that covers the bottom of this prong. The prong can be removed easily by depressing the wire, which acts like a latch, and pulling down. Do not remove the prong. Nothing bad will occur if you do remove the prong from the body of the TPS, but for this adjustment the prong must be attached.

The rubber boot that surrounds and protects the wiring that enters the bottom of the TPS must be moved out of the way. Exert only enough force on the rubber boot to wiggle it down far enough to expose about 1/2 inch of the four wires that enter the prong. The wire furthest to the rear is coded; it is white and red and called wire #1. Insert a sewing needle, a paper clip or other sharp and thin metal (electrical conducting) object up and into the plastic housing where the white and red wire enters the prong.

Step 5. Move TPS to obtain zero reading (.006 volts) and lock TPS Attach the ground probe (lead) of your digital volt meter (DVM ) to the spring of the side stand or some other grounded metal object. Attach the other probe (lead) to the object inserted into the white and red wire. With the bike on the center stand, with side stand retracted, and with engine cut-off switch on the right handle bar indicating "on", turn the ignition key to "on" but DO NOT start the bike.

Read the DVM and record this TPS value for possible future reference. Do not remove the TPS screws; loosen them so that the TPS can be moved (adjusted). Turning the TPS slightly in one direction will increase the voltage; turning it in the other direction will decrease the voltage. Turn the TPS until the observed voltage decreases to about .006 or .005 volts, which probably is as low as the voltage will go. If it will go no lower, that's okay. DO NOT continue to turn the TPS after it reaches its minimum value, which is close to zero (see WARNING, two paragraphs below). Start at a high value (.300) and turn the TPS until it reaches the low value (.006 or .005) and stop. [Note: Some digital voltmeters have an autorange function; below a certain value they will read in millivolts. The .006 may read as 6 MV, which is the same as .006 volts. Don't let the decimal places confuse you.]

Stop moving the TPS just when the voltage stops decreasing and lock it down there. At this point we say the TPS is at zero. The throttle position is also at zero. The TPS is now locked and set. This is the last TPS adjustment you will need; it is now set. You will not change the position of the TPS again !! [Author's note: The throttle opening is at zero and the TPS value is at zero, which explains Rob Lentini's title of "Zero-Zero" for this procedure.].

WARNING: It appears more than a few Oilhead owner's attempting Zero=Zero have set the TPS below zero volts. This may have caused running problems and/or, in one instance, engine damage. In 1999, Lentini said, "I now think it is important to set "zero" about .004 volts above the lowest achieveable point.

Step 6. Move left throttle plate stop screw to obtain .370 volts and lock screw. With the ignition still on, turn the left throttle plate stop screw clockwise (CW). By turning the screw, the flange will be moved away from the throttle plate. Continue turning the throttle plate stop screw until the voltage starts to rise, and continue until you reach 370 millivolts (.370 volts). Stop there, and lock it down with the lock nut. Blip the throttle several times to check the accuracy and repeatability of the 370 millivolts. Readjust the throttle plate screw if necessary. Remove the DVM, remove the object inserted into wire #1, replace the rubber boot onto the TPS. There is a possibility that .370 millivolts will not be the correct adjustment value for your bike. This will be explained in Step 10.

Step 7. Large brass bypass screws in, bike on, warm engine, rough idle expected On the right side of the bike, on the outer surface of the throttle body tube, is a large brass bypass screw with a slotted (NOT Phillips) head that faces toward the rear of the bike. If you were to place a screwdriver on the screw, the handle of the screwdriver would point toward the right rear turn signal. This large brass bypass screw is approximately one inch forward of the black plastic air intake tube. You are looking for it on the right side because it is easier to locate there; there are fewer things in the way. You can see the large brass bypass screws easily when standing near the turn signals. If you look on the left side, you will find a similar large brass bypass screw. The official BMW Repair Manual calls this a "recirculating air screw" at page 00.27.

Count and record the turns you make to lightly seat both the right and left large brass bypass screws by turning them clockwise with a flat screwdriver.

Position a fan near the front tire with its output directed at the cylinders equally to avoid overheating, or use two fans, one directed to each cylinder. If your bike has a Rider Information Display (RID), allow the oil to heat up to 5 bars, otherwise idle the bike for five minutes. It will idle rough because it is not in synch. Do not be concerned about a rough idle at this time.

Step 8. Turn the large brass bypass screws out in 1/4 increments if bike will not idle; attach carb stix

If the bike will not idle at all, back both large brass bypass screws out in increments of 1/4 turn until the bike will sustain a rough idle.

Secure the mercury manometers (carb stix) on the right side on the bike, where most of the work will take place. Use any method that secures the carb stix (and the hazardous mercury) vertically while the bike is running , such as hanging the carb stix from the ceiling.

There is one black tube attached to the under side of each throttle body. Remove both black (vapor recovery) tubes and you will expose the brass nipples that point down. Attach one of the carb stix's flexible plastic tubes to each brass nipple. Make certain that the carb stix's plastic tubing does not touch hot exhaust parts; the tubing will melt. There is no need to plug the black vapor recovery tubes.

Step 9. Set right throttle plate stop screw using carb stix. At this time, locate the right throttle plate screw (mirror image position of the one on the left side). The screw will have a lock nut similar to the one on the left side. If it is difficult to manipulate the lock nut and screw, you have located the correct hardware.

With the bike warm and the fan on, look at the mercury columns. If they are not at an equal level, loosen the lock nut on the right side throttle plate and adjust the screw in or out until the mercury columns are equal. If the bike will not idle, then turn both large brass bypass screws out another 1/4 turn.

Step 10. Reduce TPS in increments of 0.020 if idle exceeds 1100-1200 rpm After adjusting the right side throttle plate screw to get equal mercury columns, look at the rpm. Ideally, rpm is now 1100 to 1200. Some bikes will have an abnormally high idle; as high as 1800 rpm or more. This is most prevalent in GS and R models. To correct the high idle, return to Step 6 and place one lead of the digital volt meter (DVM) back on the red and white wire of the TPS and ground the other lead. DO NOT move the Bosch black TPS. Reset the left throttle plate screw (the left rear screw with lock nut that was difficult to adjust) and reduce the TPS voltage by 0.020 volts (from .370 to .350) by turning the throttle plate screw. Continue with the rest of the Steps in order after Step 6. If the idle is still too high, continue to reduce the TPS value by increments of 0.020 until the desired idle is reached.

Step 11. Reset throttle cable (left side) to .5 mm free play Reset the left side throttle cable for about .5 mm of free play. Check this by twisting and releasing the throttle several times and then rechecking the free play.

Step 12. Perform the procedure described in "Balancing Throttle Bodies", which also is part of the R1100 Maintenance Guide and is reproduced on the Internet BMW web site.

The author has done his best to produce accurate information. However no responsibility can be accepted for any damage or injury caused by any errors or omissions in this article. Make certain that you understand what is described and why it is being done. Use at your own risk.
Comments, corrections and questions may be directed to

[DarthRider]

You might try the tried and proven Italian tuneup .. here in Texas we might say it is a Texas tune up.
Usually works
West Texas Tune Up: Westbound from Amarillo on Hwy. 60, 10 miles. WFO.
Makes 'em purr like a kitty!
If you get caught, tell 'em Bill sent you...

[Bill]

Speaking of BMWs, how is your project BMW coming along? A nice AZ tune up should do it some good.
Got any new pictures of that Black Beauty? It would be a shame to take it out to the B&B and show up Dean's Collection.

[DarthRider]

Speaking of BMWs, how is your project BMW coming along? A nice AZ tune up should do it some good.
Got any new pictures of that Black Beauty? It would be a shame to take it out to the B&B and show up Dean's Collection.
To whom do you address your remarks, Sire?

[jamming]

AB, Call me.

I have lots of questions and my least favorite thing is diagnosing over the Internet. Like a Wizard I'd rather lay my hands upon it and have IT tell me whats wrong.

Did these symptoms come on over time or suddenly? How many miles since last valve, throttle body adjustment? Have you changed the air filter recently? Did you reconnect the map air flow sensor on the filter box? Have you had the tank off? Have you dropped the bike lately? Have you over filled it at the gas station? How old is your battery and do you use a tender? How many total miles on motorcycle? Any maintenence done before the symptoms popped?

Here's a couple of things I want you do do before calling:

Get a spray can of carb/TB cleaner. Start the bike and spray a bit around the carb cleaner around the boot where the TB connects to the cylinder AND where the air filter intake tubes go to the TB. Any change in the idle?

I want you to also take a hard look at you battery connections, any corrosion? Unbolt both cables( negative OFF first, positive ON first, prevents sparks from escaping the cables) and look, while its unhooked and after the inspection walk away, make yourself a cup of tea and hang for about 20 min. I want the battery out of the loop. Then after your tea, hook both cables back up. Then turn the key to the on postion however DO NOT START the engine. Slowly turn the throttle from full closed to full open 3 times. Turn off key, count to 3 turn on key and start. What happened? What we have done is reset the TPS. Sometime that's all they need and other times they need the more involved precedure.

Before you do the valves and TB, get some Autolite 3923 plugs. and gap to .35 inch not MM.

Last thing, if you could run by a dealer or know someone with a GS-911 code reader, I'd like to know if a code is present in the ECU. If you have a good relationship with the dealer they will read the code for 25 or 30 bucks or free. Sure save a lot of tail chasing.

[Deans BMW]

AB, pay close attention to what Roger just posted.

[Promethean]

Hey Rog,
Let me answer your questions first and try the easier things first before I harass you. Also, I've been very negligent with maintenance over the past year or so because I moved into an apartment where I can't do my own wrenching.

Did these symptoms come on over time or suddenly?
The rough idle has been an issue for a year or so but the stalling and cutting out at highway speeds is new and started happening when I got the bike running after replacing the battery.

How many miles since last valve, throttle body adjustment?
I haven't had those in a quite a while.

Have you changed the air filter recently?
No

Did you reconnect the map air flow sensor on the filter box?
No

Have you had the tank off?
Yes. The previous battery died. Could not plug into a battery tender at the apartment garage and forgot to pull the fuses.

Have you dropped the bike lately?
No.

Have you over filled it at the gas station?
I usually fill it to the brim. Does that count?

How old is your battery and do you use a tender?
Battery is brand new and replaced a couple of months ago. No chance to use a tender.

How many total miles on motorcycle?
About 20k.

Any maintenence done before the symptoms popped?
Nope...

I want you to also take a hard look at you battery connections, any corrosion?
No corrosion. I've done the TPS reset procedure you described after I replaced the battery.

Will replace the spark plugs. Just one other question, some folks on advrider recommend getting a thin walled spark plug socket because the regular craftsman ones won't fit. Any recommendations?

Also, does the TwinMax come with BMW adapters? Or do I have to order them separately. TwinMax is a hard to find product. Only place I found online was eBay.

My dealer sold his franchise so I don't know anyone there. Will see if I can persuade them.

Will run the carb cleaner test over the next couple of days and let you know. I appreciate the pointers.

Thanks.....



AB, Call me.

I have lots of questions and my least favorite thing is diagnosing over the Internet. Like a Wizard I'd rather lay my hands upon it and have IT tell me whats wrong.

Did these symptoms come on over time or suddenly? How many miles since last valve, throttle body adjustment? Have you changed the air filter recently? Did you reconnect the map air flow sensor on the filter box? Have you had the tank off? Have you dropped the bike lately? Have you over filled it at the gas station? How old is your battery and do you use a tender? How many total miles on motorcycle? Any maintenence done before the symptoms popped?

Here's a couple of things I want you do do before calling:

Get a spray can of carb/TB cleaner. Start the bike and spray a bit around the carb cleaner around the boot where the TB connects to the cylinder AND where the air filter intake tubes go to the TB. Any change in the idle?

I want you to also take a hard look at you battery connections, any corrosion? Unbolt both cables( negative OFF first, positive ON first, prevents sparks from escaping the cables) and look, while its unhooked and after the inspection walk away, make yourself a cup of tea and hang for about 20 min. I want the battery out of the loop. Then after your tea, hook both cables back up. Then turn the key to the on postion however DO NOT START the engine. Slowly turn the throttle from full closed to full open 3 times. Turn off key, count to 3 turn on key and start. What happened? What we have done is reset the TPS. Sometime that's all they need and other times they need the more involved precedure.

Before you do the valves and TB, get some Autolite 3923 plugs. and gap to .35 inch not MM.

Last thing, if you could run by a dealer or know someone with a GS-911 code reader, I'd like to know if a code is present in the ECU. If you have a good relationship with the dealer they will read the code for 25 or 30 bucks or free. Sure save a lot of tail chasing.

[Deans BMW]

Abhijeet, Roger loves to help, calling him is no problem.

[jamming]

]Hey Rog,
Let me answer your questions first and try the easier things first before I harass you. Also, I've been very negligent with maintenance over the past year or so because I moved into an apartment where I can't do my own wrenching.

Understood......you need to move closer :)

Did these symptoms come on over time or suddenly?
The rough idle has been an issue for a year or so but the stalling and cutting out at highway speeds is new and started happening when I got the bike running after replacing the battery.

Humor me and unhook the battery and do the reset again...I know, I know, I'm a PITA. Just ask my Wife :rofl:

How many miles since last valve, throttle body adjustment?
I haven't had those in a quite a while.

Naughty....lol

Have you changed the air filter recently?
No

Is it dirty?
Did you reconnect the map air flow sensor on the filter box?
No

Make sure when you futzing around with the battery you didn't knock the wire or any loose

Have you had the tank off?
Yes. The previous battery died. Could not plug into a battery tender at the apartment garage and forgot to pull the fuses.

See above

Have you dropped the bike lately?
No.
Good!!!! Wish I could say that....

Have you over filled it at the gas station?
I usually fill it to the brim. Does that count?

It could, if it runs into the charcoal canister it CAN give the symptons you describe. Do you still have it on the bike? If so, unhook the hose from the canister and let it hang, then see if that helps.

How old is your battery and do you use a tender?
Battery is brand new and replaced a couple of months ago. No chance to use a tender.

Does the bike turn over good? Lights are bright, etc?

How many total miles on motorcycle?
About 20k.
You need to ride more! Like to Dean's in Sept........

Any maintenance done before the symptoms popped?
Nope...
Valves/ TB sync...about 3 bills at the dealer. That will do 2 things, we'll know about codes and at least hopefully you'll have the problem solved. Sometimes it's best to just mosey up and the pay the man. If you only knew how hard that was to type.......I'm such a cheap Bastard.

I want you to also take a hard look at you battery connections, any corrosion?
No corrosion. I've done the TPS reset procedure you described after I replaced the battery.
Yea, I'm a PITA....see above

Will replace the spark plugs. Just one other question, some folks on advrider recommend getting a thin walled spark plug socket because the regular craftsman ones won't fit. Any recommendations?

A thin walled plug socket is a MUST HAVE, if you get the socket stuck you'll be pulling a jug and that's not the kinda "jug" you want to be pulling on, if ya get my drift. Do you have a Cycle Gear close? Motion Pro tools has a decent 1 or go to MAXBMWMOTORCYCLES.com and order 71117676887 SPARK PLUG WRENCH - SW 160.26 1 $25.18http://www.maxbmwmotorcycles.com/fiche/images/addtocart.gif http://www.maxbmwmotorcycles.com/fiche/NotesParts/71117676887_1_N.jpg
That's the 1 I use. It's made for the BMW and you can't go wrong. Word of advice, if what you get is even a bit tight in the plug tunnel, STOP!!!! go no futher. Harbor Freight might have 1 as well. Take the bike and try them out before ya buy it.

Oh yea...Autolite or equivalent gaped to .035 inches...I said .35 before...oops...sometimes zeros are very important. You guys are supposed to keep me honest here....AB might have gaped the plug to a third of an inch and THEN he'd have problems!

Also, does the TwinMax come with BMW adapters? Or do I have to order them separately. TwinMax is a hard to find product. Only place I found online was eBay.

The Twin Max will have all the adapters you need.

My dealer sold his franchise so I don't know anyone there. Will see if I can persuade them.
No time like the present to ask.

Will run the carb cleaner test over the next couple of days and let you know. I appreciate the pointers.
If the idle changes and it might if there's an air leak, wherever the spray goes in that's where the leak is. WD-40 will work as well.

Thanks.....
Your welcome of course, call anytime....its a never a bother to help a friend. I'm not very good at many things but I am an Idiot Savant with mechanical things.

[Jaythro]

Hey Ahbijeet Check your throttle cables are seated in the throttle bodies both sides (check the cable quadrants are going all the way back to their stops and check the cables are also seated in the cable cassette below the battery

If they are then I would say to do a service and make a $4 manometer to balance the throttles DO NOT DO ZERO ZERO it's a pile of bullshit

When you set your valves use a pair of feeler gauges per pair of rockers! But before you do the clearance do the Rocker end float!, then the Inlets 6 thou and the exhausts 12 thou Do NOT SWING on the locknut and nice firm nip up is all that is required they are only 7nm

The easiest way to judge whats is what to set the bike up is ---> Plugs out, bike on centre stand, select 6th gear and rotate the wheel in normal direction of rotation and to watch the valves on a side opening then closing as they close keep an eye on the cam sprocket on that side and when the little arrow on the back face of the cam wheel comes around and is horizontal you set that side To be sure you should find the other side is dead tight and one valve closing/opening

Once you have these things done you can rebuild and take the bike a quick run to get up to temperature

Back in the shop you can remove the big brass screws and clean them with some meths or surgical spirit or carb cleaner they will probably be pretty messy with oil residue If you are brave and can do it when running (only one screw out at at time!) a squirt of carb clean in the hole will clean the transfer port Keep carb clean away from the O ring on the screw (a light smear of vaseline of rubber grease is good on them before they go back in !)

Screw them in all the way in then out one and a half turns each NOW if you can get a carbtune or a set of gauges it makes it easier Cos IF the balance is badly out then you can watch the fluid in a $4 manometer disappear very damn quick

This ALSO happens if you stand on the tube and it comes off the vac point :eusa_whistle:

So adjust the screws till you get a balance Then gently squeeze the throttle open the slightest bit does the bike unsettle and get rough and the gauge go one way ? Then you need to sync the cables

Only do the right side as the left side is hooked to the TPS and you want to adjust the cable so you loose that rough edge

Once you have synced the throttles you are looking for an idle speed (with the "Choke" lever all they way off) of 1100 to 1200 with 5 bars on the temp gauge

Then go play on the quiet roads and see if it's a different bike

|Any Questions please ask

[Sir Limpsalot]

This is taking me back to the "good old days" of the Cafe.. Diagnosing 1150R's is what the internet was invented for! Good luck, Ab.

[Promethean]

Understood......you need to move closer


I'm working on it Rog....these Wisconsin winters are getting to me. :)



Humor me and unhook the battery and do the reset again...I know, I know, I'm a PITA. Just ask my Wife


Will do. Will disconnecting the fuel pump itself be enough to require the reset? Or will I have to physically disconnect the battery?



Is the air filter dirty?

Will check.



It could, if it runs into the charcoal canister it CAN give the symptons you describe. Do you still have it on the bike? If so, unhook the hose from the canister and let it hang, then see if that helps.

I'll unhook it and try. I've been meaning to remove the canister anyways.



You need to ride more! Like to Dean's in Sept........


Would love to do that. Except they have me chained to a desk here....not a bad problem to have in these times. :)



Valves/ TB sync...about 3 bills at the dealer. That will do 2 things, we'll know about codes and at least hopefully you'll have the problem solved. Sometimes it's best to just mosey up and the pay the man. If you only knew how hard that was to type.......I'm such a cheap Bastard.


Rog.....I hear you.....It goes against the grain to fork over any money for labor that I can do myself. I'll do this in a friend's garage in a week or two.

Will take your suggestion about the spark plug socket. Thanks for all the suggestions and help.

Btw, I'll owe you a ton of beer when I finally make my way down to AZ. :)

[Deans BMW]

Abhijeet we are counting on that Beer, come on down. I have a good friend with very strong connections at Intel.

[Dirty Doug]

Not that I'm any help at all but did want to say we've missed you Abs.

Dirty Doug

[Promethean]

I miss you guys too DD. Just trying to stay afloat these days. :)

How have you been?


Not that I'm any help at all but did want to say we've missed you Abs.

Dirty Doug

[jamming]

Just get the battery out of the loop, unhooking the Earth (ground) will work. We need to make the bike a paperweight for 20 min. Just do the valves and see if you can find someone with a set of carb sticks or 2 good vacuum gages that will hook up and then call me and I'll talk you through the TB Balance. Or pickup a Twinmax. It won't be the first time ;) I'm not worried about the rocker end float right now. One problem at a time and besides are you ready to hit the rocker with a hammer? Lets smooth her out and then dial her in.

One other thing, does she seem to be running hot? I'm curious about a lean condition on the fueling. Hard to diagnose on the "Net". Like a Rock Band, I really am better in person.

[1MPH]

Like a Rock Band, I really am better in person.

Is that why we call you Jammin? :)

[jamming]

Is that why we call you Jammin? :)

Nope..I'm a terrible musician. It was my call sign in the military and a skydiving term...I be jamming.

[Promethean]

I always thought that was because you were a guitarist. :D

Will do Rog. Waiting for the TwinMax to arrive.


Nope..I'm a terrible musician. It was my call sign in the military and a skydiving term...I be jamming.

[Promethean]

Hey Rog/Jaythro,
This is what I did this weekend.


Checked with carb cleaner to see if there were any leaks. None detected.
Reset the system by taking the battery out of the loop when I replaced the fuel filter. :)
Performed valve adjustment. (The valves were way too tight....especially the exhaust). The rocker arms on the left cylinder was within tolerance but barely. I didn't mess with it...since I was concerned about valve adjustment and getting the idle set up.
Replaced Fuel Filter (hadn't been done in years). That is like stuffing 5 lbs of sausage meat in a 3lb bag. :)
Replaced air filter.
Cleaned Big Brass Screws.
Replaced spark plugs.




One other thing, does she seem to be running hot? I'm curious about a lean condition on the fueling. Hard to diagnose on the "Net". Like a Rock Band, I really am better in person.

What's the definitive way to tell if she's running hot?

No throttle body adjustment yet. The TwinMax arrived. I need to get familiar with the procedure before I screw around with that.

Need to get rid of the charcoal canister. AFAIK, I need to cap the throttle bodies so that the two lines from the fuel tank dump overflow to the ground instead of the canister. And the canister gets tossed with the solenoid. Am I on the right track?

I think the valve adjustments helped the most. The bike fires up without the usage of the fast idle without any problems. The idle is at 900 rpm. She purrs like a kitten but I think the TB adjustment will be the icing on the cake.

I really do appreciate your help and insight.


Just get the battery out of the loop, unhooking the Earth (ground) will work. We need to make the bike a paperweight for 20 min. Just do the valves and see if you can find someone with a set of carb sticks or 2 good vacuum gages that will hook up and then call me and I'll talk you through the TB Balance. Or pickup a Twinmax. It won't be the first time ;) I'm not worried about the rocker end float right now. One problem at a time and besides are you ready to hit the rocker with a hammer? Lets smooth her out and then dial her in.

One other thing, does she seem to be running hot? I'm curious about a lean condition on the fueling. Hard to diagnose on the "Net". Like a Rock Band, I really am better in person.

[Sir Limpsalot]

I think the valve adjustments helped the most. The bike fires up without the usage of the fast idle without any problems. The idle is at 900 rpm. She purrs like a kitten but I think the TB adjustment will be the icing on the cake.


Well done, Ab! The TB adjustment makes a huge difference to the "feel" of an engine, and as it's your first time, you're right not to rush at it. Small adjustments can make big changes, so I suggest you make a very careful note of where the adjusters are at the start of the process so you can return to that point and start over - if necessary.

[jamming]

So all She needed was a bit of loving?
Nice work! When you are ready for the TB sync call me before you do it and give you some pointers.

[Promethean]

Thanks guys! So...is my guess about the charcoal canister removal correct? Or did I miss something?

I did the brake bleed this weekend as well....the fluid was almost black. Guess what...I realized later that I had probably let air bubbles into the lines. !@#$!@#$@#$

Need to fix it tonight or tomorrow before I ride the bike.

Rog,
I have your phone number from way back. I'll send you a PM to confirm.

Thanks,



Well done, Ab! The TB adjustment makes a huge difference to the "feel" of an engine, and as it's your first time, you're right not to rush at it. Small adjustments can make big changes, so I suggest you make a very careful note of where the adjusters are at the start of the process so you can return to that point and start over - if necessary.


So all She needed was a bit of loving?
Nice work! When you are ready for the TB sync call me before you do it and give you some pointers.

[panthercity]

Ab, the charcoal canisters are a sorry lot. They fell off both my oilheads, along with the solenoids. I covered the nipples under the throttle bodies with rubber caps from the local AutoZone/Pep Boys/O'Reily's.

The nipples must be covered or they will be sucking air (unfiltered air at that!) into the intake stream making the bike dangerously lean.

[Promethean]

Thanks guys for all the help! The bike runs great.

I had the pleasure of speaking with our very own Jamming this week. I'd love to meet him in person one of these days. He's one smart cookie.

Btw, Rog....my idle is upto 1000-1100 RPM now and the bike runs great. However, the TwinMax at max sensitivity indicates that the right cylinder is pulling more vacuum at mid-range throttle (3500 RPM). Do I need to mess around with the throttle cable some or should I leave it the way it is? At idle, the needle is almost stationary and centered over zero at max sensitivity.

[panthercity]

Ab, I balance mine at idle and at 4K (75mph in top gear). I'll sacrifice a tad of 'rough' idle for miles and miles of smooth cruise.

But, that's just me. :D

[Sir Limpsalot]

I agree with Bob. You can "normally" get both the right idle and the perfect "running" balance, but if I had to sacrifice one or the other, well, no contest!

[jamming]

How much more?

[Promethean]

It's at 2 on the TwinMax at max sensitivity.


How much more?

[jamming]

It's at 2 on the TwinMax at max sensitivity.



Did the valve adjustment cure the ills? Is she smoother, doesn't die, etc? You could dial it in a bit more or leave it for when you have more time. When we were talking the other day it sounded like you had a full plate. I've seen them way worse and ridden everyday.

[Promethean]

Rog,
Yes. The valve adjustments worked like a charm. The bike runs great and doesn't die. I'll take your advice and leave it until the next time that I need to open it up again for the rocker end play adjustment.

Thanks again for your help.


Did the valve adjustment cure the ills? Is she smoother, doesn't die, etc? You could dial it in a bit more or leave it for when you have more time. When we were talking the other day it sounded like you had a full plate. I've seen them way worse and ridden everyday.